Plasma Guns; useful or no?

[SpacePuppy]

As a converted Chaos player ive been yelled at by my friends since beginning 40k in September to never use plasma guns on my chaos marines because i lose the ability to assault and get that extra attack when you rapid fire.

 

However, being a new space pup, i wonder if the same holds true for us? Here's my thoughts on the matter.

 

1. Plasma Guns are cheaper for us

2. I play against mostly MEQ and Plasma Guns are MEQ killers

3. Even if i dont assault and i get assaulted they lose their +1 attack because of counter attack.

 

You choose not to take plasma guns because you dont want to lose your +1 attack and give the enemy their +1. But with Wolves all that really happens is we lose our +1 attack, they dont get theirs.

 

Should i be taking plasma guns against MEQ lists then?

 

What are the thoughts on plasma gun effectiveness on Wolves vs other armies?

 

Thanks for replies and helping a new pup find his way!

[Wysten]

Depends really, it's a good weapon subject to two downsides.

 

1) You can't charge when you fire it.

2) Theres the potencial of it simply not firing, and the even rarier chance of the gunman dying.

3) Meltaguns are the most reliable anti tank there is, a squad carrying two can fairly reliably break open anything on a good hit, good for eating the contents alive.

 

That being said, I feel plasma does have it's place in one or two supportive packs, easpically those not carrying wolf guard. Bulky enough to fight in combat, the combination of rapid fire and plasma fire being sangicant enough to make Xeros faint and marines take a fair few more wounds before combat is joined. Hence you could have a support plasma pack that can fight when needed to, support the melta packs and can also add it's weight to a good scrap when needed. Just be weary that tarrien may make shooting less effective at times.

[Hellrender]

you do retain 2 attacks when equiped with a plasmagun, since you still have a bolt pistol and cc weapon. However, as with all rapid fire weapons, you can't assault if you shoot. Plasma guns have their uses, and it depends on how you play the unit that uses them. If you put them on an objective, they can be very useful, since they have the same range and shots as a bolter, so it complements well. However if your enemy has a lot of vehicles, or is weaker in assault you will want the meltagun, so you can pop transports and retain the ability to shoot and assault after.

 

Counter-Attack gives only an additional attack to you IF you pass your leadership test, this has nothing to do with what weapons a marine is equiped with.

 

You can get attacks for:

2 cc weapons (be it chainsword + pistol, or 2 swords)

Charge/counter attack

 

So say, if a assault marine unit assaults your grey hunters, they get +1A for assaulting, and +1A for having 2 cc weapons (bolt pistol and chainsword).

If you would shoot at them (be it melta gun or plasma gun), they still have their additional attacks, and you can still counter attack.

If you would assault them instead, you can't shoot bolters/plasma gun, but they lose/will not have their +1A for assaulting, only that for having 2 cc weapons.

 

Most people don't take plasma guns, because melta gun are a lot better vs. armour. Internet lists have a lot of transports in them, and there the amount of melta weapons can be a lot more usefull than a couple of AP 2 shots.

[SpacePuppy]

Should have clarified, we lose the +1 attack from charging*

 

*That is, if our wolves are within assault range in the shooting phase

 

edit: ohhhh, i thought counter attack nulified the enemies bonus attack, didnt realize it gives us one for being charged. I read the rules wrongly, my bad

[Valerian]

Plasma guns (and Plasma Cannon) are absolutely worth it. If you really want to charge, just use your bolt pistols instead, but when you want to stand and rapid fire, a pack with double Plasma will do some serious damage to enemy units, and doesn't care how good their armour is.

 

I've got two double-Melta packs and one double-Plasma pack, and I often get better effects out of the latter.

 

Valerian

[Grey Mage]

Plasma is without a doubt one of our strongest options- multiple high strength shots for light to mid Armor Values, low AP for the toughest of infantry, and both for hunting down and decimating monstrous creatures. Good range, and a fire rate that syncs up with the bolters theyd be replacing. So, all things considered theyre an excellent weapon that about half of my GHs end up getting armed with.

[Coverfire]

Plasmas hate me. I don't usually play them and last week I had a Grey hunters Pack with 2 and they both killed their carrier without hitting anything; so thats why I generally stick to meltaguns.

 

EDIT: I am sure that statistically this is very rare, but we only remember when the bad things happen.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

Plasma is great for marines, being both multipurpose and pairing nicely with the boltgun's range and type. Strength 7 can threaten light transports and MCs as well as engage enemy infantry of all shapes and sizes. AP 2 takes care of any armor as well as FNP. The range matches the bolter's, so no one is prevented from firing unless everyone is. I personally like midfield footslogging unit that makes a nice 24" bubble of death. Its the wolf version of the vanilla MM/PG tac squad with better close combat ability.

[Nrthstar]

My objective holders are given plasma since I don't want them getting sucked away from their targets by cc anyways. It's worth it to rapid fire 4 shots of marine death.

[Thunderhawk3015]

I have found plasma to be useful for my "support" grey hunters. These are the guys who are there to bolter drill on something before it gets there, and with matching range between the plasma and bolter, it lets me smack something a bit heavier or burn down a harder target. Never had them fail me yet, but they do overheat a lot for me, guess all the wolf tails are keeping the gunners safe.

[Wulfebane]

My objective holders are given plasma since I don't want them getting sucked away from their targets by cc anyways. It's worth it to rapid fire 4 shots of marine death.

 

This is how I see them. Usually, I have 2+ GH packs in any given points range, and on occasion a 5man objective grabber. Regardless, any pack you park on an objective will hold out pretty well if given plasma.

 

I generally follow the philosophy of not mixing special weapons, ie 1 flamer & 1 plasma in a pack, etc and just go with 2x of the same of whichever special I'm taking. Having said that, statistically, I think I've seen the ratio usually at 2:1 meltas to plasmas, where you'll have 2x GHs packs with meltas to every 1x GH pack with plasma. Flamers are usually carried by Blood Claws to negate their low BS.

[calgar101]

I always take 4x10 man Grey Hunter packs, two with plasma guns and two with melta guns. The plasma are my support and provide some nice fire power, they can threaten most targets. So yes plasma in my eyes is very worth it.

[W40KEsq]

As a converted Chaos player ive been yelled at by my friends since beginning 40k in September to never use plasma guns on my chaos marines because i lose the ability to assault and get that extra attack when you rapid fire.

 

However, being a new space pup, i wonder if the same holds true for us? Here's my thoughts on the matter.

 

1. Plasma Guns are cheaper for us

2. I play against mostly MEQ and Plasma Guns are MEQ killers

3. Even if i dont assault and i get assaulted they lose their +1 attack because of counter attack.

 

You choose not to take plasma guns because you dont want to lose your +1 attack and give the enemy their +1. But with Wolves all that really happens is we lose our +1 attack, they dont get theirs.

 

Should i be taking plasma guns against MEQ lists then?

 

What are the thoughts on plasma gun effectiveness on Wolves vs other armies?

 

Thanks for replies and helping a new pup find his way!

 

On Dreadnoughts I think Plasma Cannons are a fair choice.

 

On troops, rarely do I use Plasma Rifles or Pistols.

 

It isn't so much they're bad, it's that the rifles compete with Meltas which are SO much better. It's like why we field Grey Hunters not Bloodclaws. Bloodclaws are actually a decent little unit (they certainly aren't weak relative to what some other armies have), but compared to Grey Hunters they pale.

 

As for pistols, that's usually a lot of points for something that won't get used much because by the time it's in range, you're usually ready to charge/be charged so you're about to be locked in CC and not shooting. However, big however, if the meta of the area I played in was overwhelmingly MEQs (it's maybe 60-70%, but I've visited friends where it was more like 80%+ at their store), I could see the use because odds are in a game you'll get at least 1 kill because of it, so you made your points back, and hey extra anti light vehicle is never bad.

[Forté]

So it looks like its plasma at range but how about close rhino assaults? Is it worth adding plasma to the rapid fire bolter barrage?

[dswanick]

In my experience (backed up by Mathhammer™) the only time Melta shows a clear superiority over Plasma is when shooting at AV13 & 14 models within 6" of the GH pack. Against all critters you're likely going to face the difference is negligable and against vehicles the only time Melta shows a clear superiority is within the 6" range. Two shots really does make up for the +1S of the Melta in most circumstances. So the question you have to ask yourself is "How often am I shooting AV12+ tanks within 6" of my Grey Hunter pack?" and that should answer your question about the relative worth of Melta and Plasma.

[Hellrender]

There is something you should also consider. You don't need to kill things to be dangerous. Vehicles will be scared to go past cover where Grey Hunters packed with melta's are waiting. Areadenial can win you games, just as killing the vehicles can. Melta's can be devastating, where as plasma tend to be underestimated against vehicles. Also meltas are cheaper, so you could really stack a lot of melta in a certain area making it very dangerous to travel past with a rhino.

 

Ofc, a plasma gun can do this too, even better due to the increased ranged, but a melta is more useful for psychological warfare, and much more devastating at close range.

[Wysten]

Plus the Grey Hunters often find that getting a charge is always good. Hence being an assualt weapon being able to get in CC after firing your deadly shot works. This is easpically useful as busting open Rhinos, as a landed shot can also open the squad inside to an immediate assualt.

 

Though that being said, often when I take melta, the pack also has a wolf guard with power fist and combi melta rather then 2, since I typically only expect to use my special weapon once or twice (typically to break a Rhino open and assualt it) While in Plasma Hunters, I will either have it ran at miminal size (80 points for a small, tough objective holder isn't too bad, though not as duriable as SM scouts with camo) or at maximun size (if I intend to have them stride with my other wolves or otherwise expect it to be in hand to hand to add more bodies to a melee, or simply to have a middle line pack who can race to support another unit with essencally a 24 inch rapid fire radius in Rhino)

[jjfelber]

Right wrong or otherwise, I like to run a melta and a plasma in the same unit in a rhino. I feel like I'm saving points in a ten man squad always taking the free plasma.

[Long Fang]

Plasmas hate me. I don't usually play them and last week I had a Grey hunters Pack with 2 and they both killed their carrier without hitting anything; so thats why I generally stick to meltaguns.

 

EDIT: I am sure that statistically this is very rare, but we only remember when the bad things happen.

 

This is much my experience with them as well, I normally run 2 double melta and one double flamer myself.

 

Stu

[Coverfire]

I am being swayed by peoples arguements though, I think in my next game I give the plasmagun another go.

[Rikochet]

Youre all giving good arguments.

 

It seems to come down to what exactly youre facing (MEQ vs. Mech).

If your assaulting alot, meltagun is the way to go, if youll be shooting down footsloggers, plasma is the way.

 

Maybe make a few extra marines so you can switch out between games?

 

I just recommend not taking a WG with a combi-plasma, you dont want to loose that one shot per game on yourself.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I just recommend not taking a WG with a combi-plasma, you dont want to loose that one shot per game on yourself.

 

Actually, WG (terminators) with combi plasma are fantastic. If you have 3 of them in one squad they can really dish some pain on a unit just before assaulting them, and thanks to the 2+ save overheating is not really a problem (only 1 in 36 shots will actually kill the wolf guard, and seeing as they only fire 2 shots a game this is not likely to ever happen).

 

It seems to come down to what exactly youre facing (MEQ vs. Mech).

If your assaulting alot, meltagun is the way to go, if youll be shooting down footsloggers, plasma is the way.

 

You would be tailoring your army then and I am very much against tailoring armies depending on your opponent because then you'll never really learn to make a balanced list and get into the habit of dealing with situations with sub-optimal equipment (so you'll have to adapt and be creative).

 

It's a good idea to take both types - "assaulty" grey hunters with melta, wolf standard and wolf guard with power fist/combi melta and "shooty" grey hunters in a rhino with two plasma guns (and maybe a wolf standard if you really want to) so you have something for both tasks, which will ultimately mean that if you play well you'll have the right units in the right position when you need it.

[Rikochet]

Yeah equipping your termie WG with a combi-plasma is allright, but I was talking about the WG in power armor attached as a "squad-leader", not so good.

I actually run three WG with my 3 Gh squads, 2 with combi-melta and 1 with combi-plas, and that combi-plas never does any good.

 

2 of my termies have combi-plas and they do far better.

 

As far as tailoring goes, thats up to the OP, I dont personally tailor myself, but I give the advice to people who seem stuck in the "to be or not" situation. Making a couple of spare marines with the alternative weapons isnt that much of a tailored effort.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

You're right of course in that combi plasmas on power armour are too risky. I wouldn't do that, especially as it isn't an assault weapon. Of course having spare marines is perfectly acceptable (I do it that way), I thought you were recommending that he writes his list depending on the opponent and disagreed with that.

 

If you have a squad on foot you could even go as far as adding a terminator with combiplasma to a unit of 10 so they can really dish out some pain, but it would take a while to get into rapid fire range that way so it really depends on the rest of your list.

[WG Vrox]

_ I run 2 DPs in most of my lists, the first is my heavy melta anti tank and the second is my 10 man 2 plasma gun and 1 plasma pistol unit.

 

Dropping down and punching out with 5 plasma shots and 14 Bolter shots can put a nice dent into anything caught in their cross-hairs. Usually they are used to drop on an objective and hold it. All that plasma held by a 10 Grey Hunters makes it a hard nut to crack.