Flaws and mutations

[Gulag]

I'm sure this topic has come up before, but I have a recent fascination with the flaws and mutations in the gene-seed and implants of various chapters in canon, the Dornian Heresy, and in the DIY chapters.

 

For example, the Iron Warriors of the amazing Dornian Heresy:

 

As well as Perturabo’s cold, analytical logic, traits such as suspicion and even paranoia have been passed onto his marines. Initially the gene-seed of the Iron Warriors was a model of efficiency, but over the millennia a slow but steady deterioration has occurred in some of their implants. Although the Occulobe, Larraman’s Organ and Omophagea perform well in new initiates, over time they lose their effectiveness. These deficiencies have been addressed where possible by the use of augmetics, so that it is common for veteran Iron Warriors to be fitted with bionic eyes, and to rely heavily upon information from their armour’s auto-senses.

 

An implant which has shown no sign of degradation over the millennia is the Catalepsean Node, which allows the brain to stay alert for long periods and reduces the need for sleep. Given their extensive duties as garrison troops this is a vital survival trait, as an Iron Warrior without a finely honed ability to stay alert to the approach of enemies would not live long enough to pass on his gene-seed to the next generation.

 

as well as the Raven guard of the Dornian Heresy:

 

Many of the original implants, such as the Mucranoid, Betcher’s gland and often the Haemastamen are absent in the Raven Guard, while the intent of others have been changed radically, and completely new ones added. These changes, in particular the drastic alterations to the catalepsean node, are primarily focussed on enhancing psychic abilities. In true prodigies this leads to the creation of sorcerers of incredible power, and in time can stimulate transformational abilities in others. While the remarkable ability of Raven Guard brethren to grow wings may be due in part to a hyper-stimulation of ossomodula and biscopea, nothing short of warp-craft would explain the way that ceramite and adamantium can be re-shaped at will into razor-sharp talons.

 

 

The Iron Warriors are fascinating because of the decline of certain organs makes for cool marines with lots of particular bionics.

 

The Raven Guard are where it gets interesting - the manipulation of the Biscopea and the Ossmodula to create wings or the super changes to the Catalespean node has given me to thinking what is possible and what has been done before in DIY chapters for particularly interesting or notable mutations and flaws in the gene-seed.

 

There are a few canon chapters with noticeable flaws or mutations in their gene-seed:

 

Blood Ravens - never experience REM sleep, perfect recall, lots of psykers

 

Black Dragons - those spikes and blades

 

Soul Drinkers - that Stronger Omophagea

 

Mantis Warriors -

the Preomnor gene-seed implant does not function properly. As such, when a Mantis Warrior sets himself into a certain frame of mind, the Prenomor gland secretes a potent neuro-toxin that permanently changes the Astartes' physiology; the Space Marine is overcome by a feeling of the need for forgiveness for his many sins and shortcomings and a dramatically increased reverence for the Emperor. This neuro-toxin alters the Space Marine's sense of space and time, increasing his neurological reaction rate to that only achieved in near-precognitive states by most psykers; it also increases his already superhuman strength to a great extent. To a mortal it would seem that the Astartes is simply stepping aside before anything happens. Unfortunately, this marvelous gift comes at a price: the physiological change is irreversible and the Astartes' sight becomes tunnelized to the point of no longer being able to notice anything in his field of view that is not a target or a foe.

 

I'll leave out the Blood Angels because ALL of their successors have bigtime flaws and baggage.

 

 

 

That said, does anyone have any particular DIY's that have notable or outstanding flaws or mutations?

 

For Example:

 

I myself was considering a conversion of relatively stable and pure gene-seed into a very fast non-Space Wolves/Blood Angels berzerker or assault force.

 

I had a few ideas on this: Catalespean node never shuts off, so the marines never get natural sleep and they get a little crazy as a result of this. Not bad but unreliable on its own.

 

Biscopea - the handling of hormones and muscle growth makes this really ideally placed to do anything to alter the body or its functioning.

 

The Beltcher Gland - odd, but hear me out, the beltcher gland could be deformed so that it doesn't create acidic spit but instead directs toxins and poisons into the body and they build up in the brain and reduce impulse control and other functions. Has lots of promise.

 

The Sus-an Membrane - I saw this somewhere else and had to write it down, so all credit is due elsewhere; the basic idea here is that instead of going into a coma when critically injured, the marine enters a hyper-active frenzy state instead. Handy even if it'll probably be lethal. A bit like Barbarians in D&D when they drop dead after ending a rage and losing their extra hit-points.

 

Omophagea - literal bloodthirst and hunger for flesh is always handy when bringing out the feral savage aspects in someone!

 

Hoping for lots of responses!

[G3rman]

I don't have anything to really add because you've already listed the DH Iron Warriors, which is the Legion I currently play.

 

I would like to challenge you to say if its the geneseed or the recruit pool that makes the Blood Ravens have so many psykers. Yes its odd that they would have so many psyker initiates from the planets they recruit in, but I don't think a geneseed can actually induce it.

[Gulag]

I don't have anything to really add because you've already listed the DH Iron Warriors, which is the Legion I currently play.

 

I would like to challenge you to say if its the geneseed or the recruit pool that makes the Blood Ravens have so many psykers. Yes its odd that they would have so many psyker initiates from the planets they recruit in, but I don't think a geneseed can actually induce it.

 

Just a little bit off topic - if you'd like to start a thread discussing the Blood Ravens further I'd happily discuss it in the appropriate thread and forum.

[G3rman]

I don't think its exactly off-topic, you are asking about Genes and Mutations both giving current examples and asking for DIY examples. I'm asking if there is any fluff that backs up a 'psyker' flaw in geneseed to warrant it a possible mutation for DIY to have.

[Gulag]

I don't think its exactly off-topic, you are asking about Genes and Mutations both giving current examples and asking for DIY examples. I'm asking if there is any fluff that backs up a 'psyker' flaw in geneseed to warrant it a possible mutation for DIY to have.

 

The Blood Angels Black Rage/Red Thirst. The Night Lords' tendency for prophecy. The Blood Ravens are considered by most to be loyalist successors of the Thousand Sons and the Thousand Sons were all psychics.

 

Also, like I quoted from the Dornian Heresy Raven Guard, you could argue that a few modified implants in the brain could help with awakening or enhancing psychic powers.

[G3rman]

IIRC with the Thousand Sons that while were most were psychic to some degree, it could wildly vary in ability. While they most certainly do have higher amounts of librarians than other chapters, I wouldn't say all of them are psykers.

 

To your Night Lords Prophesizing, then would you imply that a chapter like the Mortifactors, who were known to prophesize the Third War of Armageddon, or the Silver Skulls with their prognosticator Librarians, have some sort of connection in a geneseed flaw?

 

And is the Red Thirst/Black Rage something to do with the geneseed or more of their Primarch's strong psychic and spiritual presence upon his death? They were fine before he died I believe and I doubt the geneseed suddenly was mutated. Not sure how to explain the NL because I have little experience in their fluff other than Kurze being able to predict things, perhaps it is his own psychic presence or mental thoughts that are imprinted in some of the stronger-willed, more similar members of his Legion that share his ability.

 

Just wild speculation and not meant to put your thread down, but I think it best to sort out what is geneseed and what is not.

[Gulag]

IIRC with the Thousand Sons that while were most were psychic to some degree, it could wildly vary in ability. While they most certainly do have higher amounts of librarians than other chapters, I wouldn't say all of them are psykers.

 

All of the Thousand Sons were psykers.

 

As befits the genic offspring of such a colossal psychic mutant as Magnus, the geneseed of the Thousand Sons appeared to ensure the development of psychic ability

 

To your Night Lords Prophesizing, then would you imply that a chapter like the Mortifactors, who were known to prophesize the Third War of Armageddon, or the Silver Skulls with their prognosticator Librarians, have some sort of connection in a geneseed flaw?

 

Read ADB's Night Lords books. The Prophetic powers of members of the Night Lords Legion is connected to their gene-seed and is inherited from their Primarch.

 

And is the Red Thirst/Black Rage something to do with the geneseed or more of their Primarch's strong psychic and spiritual presence upon his death? They were fine before he died I believe and I doubt the geneseed suddenly was mutated. Not sure how to explain the NL because I have little experience in their fluff other than Kurze being able to predict things, perhaps it is his own psychic presence or mental thoughts that are imprinted in some of the stronger-willed, more similar members of his Legion that share his ability.

 

That the Red Thirst and Black Rage ONLY affect those implanted with the gene-seed of the Blood Angels line, I would say that its a matter of genetics. The same for the particular and peculiar strain of prophetic visions that afflict the sons of Curze.

 

Just wild speculation and not meant to put your thread down, but I think it best to sort out what is geneseed and what is not.

 

It is derailing the Do It Yourself Flaws and Mutations thread meant to discuss original, not official, chapters and warbands thread with speculation about established fluff.

 

If you want to go and debate the nature of the inherited traits of the First Founding - please do it in a thread in the Index Astartes forum.

[G3rman]

Well DIY chapters have to get geneseed from somewhere right? You have to use some information from real chapters to have a working DIY, but you're right that it is getting away from the primary point.

[GhostLegion]

That said, does anyone have any particular DIY's that have notable or outstanding flaws or mutations?

 

For Example:

 

I myself was considering a conversion of relatively stable and pure gene-seed into a very fast non-Space Wolves/Blood Angels berzerker or assault force.

 

I had a few ideas on this: Catalespean node never shuts off, so the marines never get natural sleep and they get a little crazy as a result of this. Not bad but unreliable on its own.

 

Biscopea - the handling of hormones and muscle growth makes this really ideally placed to do anything to alter the body or its functioning.

 

The Beltcher Gland - odd, but hear me out, the beltcher gland could be deformed so that it doesn't create acidic spit but instead directs toxins and poisons into the body and they build up in the brain and reduce impulse control and other functions. Has lots of promise.

 

The Sus-an Membrane - I saw this somewhere else and had to write it down, so all credit is due elsewhere; the basic idea here is that instead of going into a coma when critically injured, the marine enters a hyper-active frenzy state instead. Handy even if it'll probably be lethal. A bit like Barbarians in D&D when they drop dead after ending a rage and losing their extra hit-points.

 

Omophagea - literal bloodthirst and hunger for flesh is always handy when bringing out the feral savage aspects in someone!

 

Hoping for lots of responses!

 

Actually there are more than a few of us working with mutated gene-seed...some to a greater extent than others. The problems with this tend to revolve around the complicated question of 'how much is too much?' Mutation in the Imperium is generally and categorically seen as heresy and a sign of corruption...with the notable exceptions of the engineered Astartes and the beneficial psyker mutations. This will lead many of yhour peers in the DIY forums to outright attack any form of mutation not protected by fluff armor....i.e. if its a DIY mutation it must be purged, but BA, SW, BR, and the like are safe and fine, but you still cant copy that to yours.

 

There are several of us on the other side of this though, again some are more vocal than others, and this group attempts to work within the omnipresent 'rule of cool.' For this group, a limited number of mutations is acceptable, insofar as it does not threatten the created chapter, or mimic/mirror any appearance of a chaos influence....im sure the DIY chaos crowd would care less about this stipulation, but I cannot speak to that.

 

Look. As far as I can see and speak to, I would say the general guideline for a mutated geneseed is to: 1) not use the mutation to justify/create table rules (see arguements for fluff v rules elsewhere in the forums); 2) not create a mutation which would threatten the chapter (this includes obvious signs of corruption for loyalist chapters...e.g. dont give them tentacles for arms!); 3) avoid a mutation which would lead to the chapter being purged (Thousand Sons are an example here...too many psykers is a lot of trouble coming. Also the chapters purged by the GK/INQ serve as a good limiter); and 4) be perpared for your mutation ideas to be shot, stabbed, sliced, bludgeoned, and generally mangled by other people who may have a more puritanical view of this subject. If you can work within these guidelines, I rather suspect you can generate a functional and flavorful mutation for your chapter. Please note that the guidelines here are mine and mine alone. they reflect no consensus of opinion, nor do they constitute an "official" position within the Liber or its members. I am not certain you will find a consensus of opinion on this topic within the Liber.

 

Now...looking at the mutation ideas you have here, I would say that all of these could work as a change, though I dont believe the Beltcher Gland modification would occur without direct modifications (I base this on the description in fluff and the general concept of the gland). I would expect a chapter with all of these mutations to be excommunicated and likely have more than one loyalist chapter attempting to eliminate them entirely...youre describing a group that is barely (if at all) in control of themselves, and this will only get worse...hell, at a minimum they would not be allowed to recruit (see Flesh Tearers). One or two of these mutations might be functional within a loyalist chapter....but not all. Now if youre going chaos with this...well then i will have to adjust some of my opinion.

 

All this being said, you did ask for an example chapter using mutations. While I think there is one or two floating in the completed areas, I will admit to not having read all of them so I cannot speak for certain at this point. I can point to my own Shadow Lords and their mutations...a simple search will find that draft and you can see the types of comments I received on them...

[Gulag]

That said, does anyone have any particular DIY's that have notable or outstanding flaws or mutations?

 

For Example:

 

I myself was considering a conversion of relatively stable and pure gene-seed into a very fast non-Space Wolves/Blood Angels berzerker or assault force.

 

I had a few ideas on this: Catalespean node never shuts off, so the marines never get natural sleep and they get a little crazy as a result of this. Not bad but unreliable on its own.

 

Biscopea - the handling of hormones and muscle growth makes this really ideally placed to do anything to alter the body or its functioning.

 

The Beltcher Gland - odd, but hear me out, the beltcher gland could be deformed so that it doesn't create acidic spit but instead directs toxins and poisons into the body and they build up in the brain and reduce impulse control and other functions. Has lots of promise.

 

The Sus-an Membrane - I saw this somewhere else and had to write it down, so all credit is due elsewhere; the basic idea here is that instead of going into a coma when critically injured, the marine enters a hyper-active frenzy state instead. Handy even if it'll probably be lethal. A bit like Barbarians in D&D when they drop dead after ending a rage and losing their extra hit-points.

 

Omophagea - literal bloodthirst and hunger for flesh is always handy when bringing out the feral savage aspects in someone!

 

Hoping for lots of responses!

 

Actually there are more than a few of us working with mutated gene-seed...some to a greater extent than others. The problems with this tend to revolve around the complicated question of 'how much is too much?' Mutation in the Imperium is generally and categorically seen as heresy and a sign of corruption...with the notable exceptions of the engineered Astartes and the beneficial psyker mutations. This will lead many of yhour peers in the DIY forums to outright attack any form of mutation not protected by fluff armor....i.e. if its a DIY mutation it must be purged, but BA, SW, BR, and the like are safe and fine, but you still cant copy that to yours.

 

There are several of us on the other side of this though, again some are more vocal than others, and this group attempts to work within the omnipresent 'rule of cool.' For this group, a limited number of mutations is acceptable, insofar as it does not threatten the created chapter, or mimic/mirror any appearance of a chaos influence....im sure the DIY chaos crowd would care less about this stipulation, but I cannot speak to that.

 

Look. As far as I can see and speak to, I would say the general guideline for a mutated geneseed is to: 1) not use the mutation to justify/create table rules (see arguements for fluff v rules elsewhere in the forums); 2) not create a mutation which would threatten the chapter (this includes obvious signs of corruption for loyalist chapters...e.g. dont give them tentacles for arms!); 3) avoid a mutation which would lead to the chapter being purged (Thousand Sons are an example here...too many psykers is a lot of trouble coming. Also the chapters purged by the GK/INQ serve as a good limiter); and 4) be perpared for your mutation ideas to be shot, stabbed, sliced, bludgeoned, and generally mangled by other people who may have a more puritanical view of this subject. If you can work within these guidelines, I rather suspect you can generate a functional and flavorful mutation for your chapter. Please note that the guidelines here are mine and mine alone. they reflect no consensus of opinion, nor do they constitute an "official" position within the Liber or its members. I am not certain you will find a consensus of opinion on this topic within the Liber.

 

Now...looking at the mutation ideas you have here, I would say that all of these could work as a change, though I dont believe the Beltcher Gland modification would occur without direct modifications (I base this on the description in fluff and the general concept of the gland). I would expect a chapter with all of these mutations to be excommunicated and likely have more than one loyalist chapter attempting to eliminate them entirely...youre describing a group that is barely (if at all) in control of themselves, and this will only get worse...hell, at a minimum they would not be allowed to recruit (see Flesh Tearers). One or two of these mutations might be functional within a loyalist chapter....but not all. Now if youre going chaos with this...well then i will have to adjust some of my opinion.

 

All this being said, you did ask for an example chapter using mutations. While I think there is one or two floating in the completed areas, I will admit to not having read all of them so I cannot speak for certain at this point. I can point to my own Shadow Lords and their mutations...a simple search will find that draft and you can see the types of comments I received on them...

 

I do know that there are some pretty hard limitations on mutation in the Imperium, and the more puritanical elements within the Imperial government tend to cleanse with fire when in doubt.

 

My list of potential mutations for the Berzerkers was a list of potential alterations was a sort of 'for example' not an active project or hunting for advice and help.

 

I was looking for examples of successfully argued for mutations and flaws in DIYs.

[Gulag]

So, no one has any examples of a DIY chapter that have genetic quirks?

 

Like no one sees even better than other astartes due to an occulobe deviation? No melanochrome mutation that makes their skin blotchy colored? A biscopea flaw that and ossmodula that makes marines noticeably bigger than their fellows?

 

No one? Not even any ideas?

[Shinzaren]

Multiple DIY chapters have varying and wildly different gene-seed defects, and each can be seen in their respective threads. I would recommend just going through and reading what people post, as it will lead you to many different ideas on how gene-seed changes over time. In my Comment and Critiques thread, I made up a chapter whose gene-seed degraded over time, leading them to have extremely stimulated adrenalin and neural centers, giving them hyper-neural processing, at the cost of sanity and general usefulness as marines. This lead to them becoming Savant thinkers, but they couldn't articulate or stop to work on stuff, instead being chained up and force fed problems for their super brains to work on. It was designed to be a post with many flaws, but I think the basic idea is somewhat workable, though my colleagues may disagree.

 

The best advice I can give for this thread is for you to go out and read people's IAs or Topics and just see what you see. You'd be amazed what people can come up with.

[Ace Debonair]

So, no one has any examples of a DIY chapter that have genetic quirks?

 

Like no one sees even better than other astartes due to an occulobe deviation? No melanochrome mutation that makes their skin blotchy colored? A biscopea flaw that and ossmodula that makes marines noticeably bigger than their fellows?

 

No one? Not even any ideas?

 

...Dude, this topic is only a few hours old. And it's the weekend - people are probably off painting models or doing the dreaded Christmas Shopping.

The really daring ones might be doing both at the same time! :ph34r:

 

Have a little patience. It'll serve you well here! :lol:

 

 

 

My Infinity Knights have got one similar to the DH:IW, in that older marines begin to suffer from occasional organ/gland failure. Their solution to the problem isn't exactly the same, though. It's also possible that the geneseed is the root of the recent schizophrenia present is some marines, but the Chief Apothecary dismisses that notion as nonsense, and so does the Chief Apothecary. :P

[Gulag]

...Dude, this topic is only a few hours old. And it's the weekend - people are probably off painting models or doing the dreaded Christmas Shopping.

The really daring ones might be doing both at the same time! :rolleyes:

 

Have a little patience. It'll serve you well here! :lol:

 

It has? Man my sense of time is all screwed up...I honestly felt like it had been a couple days. My bad.

 

Just wow.

 

 

My Infinity Knights have got one similar to the DH:IW, in that older marines begin to suffer from occasional organ/gland failure. Their solution to the problem isn't exactly the same, though. It's also possible that the geneseed is the root of the recent schizophrenia present is some marines, but the Chief Apothecary dismisses that notion as nonsense, and so does the Chief Apothecary. :P

 

Sounds pretty cool, I will have to have a look at that.

 

Thanks for the post!