Assault Squad Swarm

[gogsmash]

I really like the idea of maybe 1 or 2 10 man jump pack assault marines for my Ultramarines but looking at what they can do, they seem a little underwhelming. I think it may be a little pointless (probably won't stop me from doing it though) as BA and possibly SW do it better!! I usually fight Tyranids, Necrons and CSM so maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But vs chaos marines I get the feeling with their banners and close combat weapons my assaulters might even get beaten in CC. So do you think Vanguards, with fancy wargear and more attacks would do better? Any tips/tricks to making them work?

[Shoggoth]

From what I gather Vanguards might be an even worse choice, being horribly expensive and still not able to stand up to the dedicated melee squads of a lot of other codexes. I think maybe the Idaeus pattern honor guard/command squad might be your best bet for an effective assault choice.

 

I'm planning a Vanguard squad myself for two reasons. The modelling opportunity, and the fact that we mostly play friendly games around here and I'm not too bothered about losing. Besides, we need some models for out Deathwatch games, so a Vanguard squad modelled as a Deathwatch Killteam can pull double duty in my gaming group.

[OptiMAT]

Codex Space Marines dont really have a dedicated CQC unit, not to compete with, say, Bezerkers; certainly not one you can field as a 10 man squad.

 

Assault Squads will do a decent job of tying up said opposition units, and Vanguard squads increase that potential based on wargear but are horrendously expensive for little benefit.

Still makes them almost a must have in a space marine collector's force options but does it certanly highlights the biggest weakness across our options.

 

I like the idea Chaplain/Vanguard in a Razorback. Decent weaponry, can resort to shooting if necessary (using the Razor), and with the CQC benefits of the Chaplain those expensive weapon options on the Vanguard become more versatile. For that loadout, at the moment, I pay 355pts. Ridiculous, but if I really need them to defeat the enemy I've got a feeling they'll come through even if they dont make their points back it will hopefully mean, with good execution, that something else on the field will work.

 

That's my thoughts, anyway. Others will disagree and that's fine. Comes down to dice at the end of the day.

[Mr.selfdestruct22]

Sadly I have to agree, Vanguard are somehow even more underwhelming than the standard assault squad. It comes down to cost vs effectiveness. If only you could give command squads jump packs...

That being said, I am actually fond of regular assault squads. In my experience they can be a very effective unit for taking down NON CLOSE COMBAT UNITS. I say that specifically because by asking if Assault squads or Vanguards are good against other CC units, you are breaking one of the first rules. Shoot the Fighty ones, and Fight the Shooty ones. A 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers will violate any shooty unit you send them after, without needing to be vanguard. That being said, they shouldn't be anywhere near the awesome CC unit your opponent is fielding. Squad of Berserkers? SHOOT THEM. Thunderhammer Terminators? Blow up their transport.

I made the mistake of thinking that a blob squad of 50 guardsman could take down a wolf lord and his retinue of thunderwolf calvalry in hand to hand. There were only 5 of them! The math seemed so secure... Now, if I had placed my squad better and had used my orders, they would have shot the wolves 150 times.

[gogsmash]

So for a 10-man assault squad would it be worth taking a jumper chaplain to boost them? Would they need the re-rolls vs mobs of 20 or so necron warriors or termagants? Also, flamers or plasma pistols?

[Shoggoth]

Plasma pistols would increase their cost to ludicrous levels without giving them better CC potential, so I would definitely say flamers. Personally I'd rather not pay a lot of points to make my melee squad more shooty and giving them a chance to blow themselves up as a bonus.

[gogsmash]

Pistols still give them the extra attack in cc though... I think I'll take 1 of each and a PW on the sarge.

[OptiMAT]

Not to suggest it's any good or not, but I decided on one of each also. Makes sense to me.

[Techmarine Harkus]

I go for one of each too usually. The flamer is handy for thinning out things like guants who use weight of numbers to sway things in their favor, and the plasma pistol can often put a valuable wound on something scary. Taking a carnifex down to 0 wounds before it can attack is much better than leaving it standing with one. I think improving their chances for that to happen is worth a few points.

 

Most of my lists include 1x10 marine unit, one plasma, one flamer and a powerfist on the sgt. I sometimes take a second unit, but typically I find one gives me the flexibility needed. As far as vanguard go, I think they are plainly too expensive, especially with jump packs on. The transported version with a chaplain can bring down the hurt but in that role, I'd usually be looking to assault terminators instead. This of course says nothing for the modeling potential, which is clearly an attraction for some.

 

I think the key thing with most vanilla marine units is picking your fights. You cant really expect assault marines to stand their ground against dedicated combat units. What you should consider is shooting the hell out of that kind of opposition. Obviously if youre facing an army of combat specialist units your assault marines are going to feel outclassed, but there is usually something in the opponents list you can square them off with. I sometimes find them useful for chasing tanks, because anything with AV10 rear should be scared of them being with 18".

 

If facing a combat heavy list they are most useful as counter assault troops. Rather than having them lead the charge, let them hang back and jump in to give your tactical marines some breathing room (or boltering room as I'd call it). A few well timed charges can swing an assault phase in your favor and the manouverability of assault marines can be key in getting it to work out.

 

Against a shooty opponent, they are going to put the fear into the likes of fire warriors. It may mean they die, but disrupting a shooting phase or taking some bullets otherwise destined for more valuable units is sometimes all you need them for.

[the jeske]

you mix a flamer and a rapid fire weapon on a jump unit 0_o , when a single plasma even on rapid fire doesnt do enough damage to light tanks , MC or meq/teq ?

[greatcrusade08]

you mix a flamer and a rapid fire weapon on a jump unit 0_o , when a single plasma even on rapid fire doesnt do enough damage to light tanks , MC or meq/teq ?

 

plasma pistol, C:SM cant get plasmaguns on RAS

[the jeske]

but thats even worse . how does he get a carnifex or any other MC to one wound when the pistol is one shot . + unlike the melta which ID t4 stuff[which is actualy a lot . warriors , most meq HQs, orc nobz , paladins etc ] and works well against tanks , the plasma puts a single wound on [that is if there is no cover of course] .

[Chengar Qordath]

Kind of have to agree with jeske; melta's added utility and lower cost vs. the plasma pistol more than offset losing a single chainsword smack in close combat.

[Rob_Loken]

Codex Space Marines can only take a Flamer or a plasma pistol. I find the lack of option in the C:SM assault troops to be quite frustrating.

[Schmitt.]

Assault Marines can't take meltaguns, so the comparison is a bit moot. That said I find the second flamer considerably more useful than a plasma pistol -- it wins out against squads of almost anything, while plasma pistols are only any better against high armour, high toughness single creatures. I suppose it adds an extra, tiny chance of cracking low armoured vehicles, but you should probably be tackling such things in close combat anyway.

[greatcrusade08]

Kind of have to agree with jeske; melta's added utility and lower cost vs. the plasma pistol more than offset losing a single chainsword smack in close combat.

 

+1 here.

melta on assault troops is one of the reasons i run raptors for chaos, but sticking with C:SM i dont find a single plasma or flamer to be that effective.

people here have said they run one of each which to me waters down effectiveness.

 

one plasma shot doesnt even gaurantee one kill, 2 or 3 is alot better.. as for flamers two templates can cause alot of damage, one is meh.

the two options are vastly different, one you rely on a small number of S7 AP2 hits to damage the big nasties (so you need the extra shots to make them count) the other is about doing lots of wounds (which is why you need two)

 

just my 2 bolt shells

[G3rman]

Its all about what you are fighting against and whether you want your squad to be versatile or specialized.

 

Space Marines have always been known to be 'well-rounders' not amazing at anything but not terrible either, that's why their units don't stand out (as great at melee/shooty) in comparison to other races. Its their options and supporting units that allow SM to find victory against more specialized enemy armies.

[march10k]

Assault squads are garbage against elite melee choices, but relatively godlike against GEQ mobs, especially shooty ones... Giving them plasma ups the cost astronomically, making them less efficient against their true prey while making them merely awful, as opposed to absolutely abysmal, against the melee units they can't handle in hand to hand combat. Not a good idea on either end of the deal. Flamers, on the other hand, do to the assault marines' prey in the shooting phase what their chainswords do in melee, thus reinforcing their strength (and for a lot fewer points) instead of giving them delusions of mediocrity against units they should avoid like the plague.

 

I happen to like assault squads. You just have to get past the mentality that they're a one-size-fits-all melee solution. They're not. They're like jump-packing striking scorpions, they throw off a decent number of non-AP attacks, are fast, and have decent toughness and armor. Fast and survivable, but not MEQ-destroyers. Great for eating T3 models with garbage for armor, delivering krak grenades in the enemy backfield, and contesting objectives you have no hope of claiming, not to mention that they attract more attention than is warranted...and a shot fired at them is a shot not fired at your scoring units! The unreasonable expectation that they'll kill assault terminators and death company has wrongfully given them a bad image.

[gogsmash]

Speaking of Death Company, I think they are ridiculous... 5-30 unit size?? Really?? I don't think they should be as skilled with a blade as a Chaplain, or a paladin who has killed a greater daemon!! They're just tactical marines gone crazy. They shouldn't outclass vanguard veterans who have spent hundreds of years fighting in close combat.

 

Anyway, plasma pistols give them an extra attack in CC. With a flamer they have 1 attack! But I can see how flamers are far less situational and can wreak havoc in the shooting phase. (but can't harm a carnifex)

[Montuhotep]

Tactics for Marine assault squads are very simple - fight the shooty stuff, shoot the fighty stuff.

 

Jump Pack'ers geared for anti-tank with an appropriate sergeant will make a mess of a tanks' rear armour, especially if it's something like an artillery piece that doesn't move around much. They can munch Lootas' in CC with some luck and an appropriate load-out, or to be honest just take 10 men, keep them basic gear and two flamers - they can make enough of a nuisance of themselves with flame templates down an enemy's flank that he may become so fixated with destroying them that he inadvertently leaves more pain-inducing portions of your army unscathed....

 

The general rule is to optimise a squad for a particular role and then use them in that role, don't try to make a 'Jack of all Trades' squad as they will invariably do neither satisfactorily.

[greatcrusade08]

The general rule is to optimise a squad for a particular role and then use them in that role, don't try to make a 'Jack of all Trades' squad as they will invariably do neither satisfactorily.

 

this^^

people fool themselves into thinking they are being flexible, when all they are doing is reducing overall effectiveness in thier select fields.

 

Anyway, plasma pistols give them an extra attack in CC. With a flamer they have 1 attack! But I can see how flamers are far less situational and can wreak havoc in the shooting phase. (but can't harm a carnifex)

why would you want to harm a carnifex, if your going anywhere near one with an assault squad you deserve to get munched IMO..

id only ever risk it once its down to its last wound or two and thats only becuase of its low initiative..

 

taking 2 plasma pistols doesnt mean you can suddenly take on paladins, monstrous creatures and the like, becuase even if you cause a couple of wounds youll get smooshed when you charge in.

figure out whats prevelant in your own area, then decide what upgrade options to give your assault marines.. if you face lots of hordes go for dual flamers, marine heavy plasma pistols.

[Chengar Qordath]

taking 2 plasma pistols doesnt mean you can suddenly take on paladins, monstrous creatures and the like, becuase even if you cause a couple of wounds youll get smooshed when you charge in.

figure out whats prevelant in your own area, then decide what upgrade options to give your assault marines.. if you face lots of hordes go for dual flamers, marine heavy plasma pistols.

Personally, I think that even against MEQ flamers win out due to their ability to force lots of armor saves. Forcing 3-4 armor saves is usually better than one wound that ignored armor, especially since flamers don't have to worry about missing or cover saves.

[greatcrusade08]

i agree wholeheartedly, dual flamers can cause lots of wounds on MEQs, you really dont need the more expensive plasmas IMO

but then everyones mileage is different

[ShinyRhino]

I like to run a 10-man Assault Squad whenever I can, because there's nothing quite as cool as a wave of Marnies landing in the midst of the enemy and chopping away with chainswords.

The absolute very first thing you should look at when deciding if you'll field these guys in a Codex Marine force is your local play environment. What do the tables you play on look like? Are they suitably covered with terrain that provides cover and LOS-blocking, or are they the 5-piece crapfest used at large tournament events? If they're the latter, put the Assault Marines back in the case. If the former, they're worth fielding.

 

Once you've determined whether you can actually run Assault marines without them being blown off the board, you pick their armament. The common build is two flamers and a powerfist. Folks like the flamers because they compliment the base statline of the Marines. ASM are built for beating low-power troopers to death with blunt or serrated objects. Those low-power units just so happen to also be vulnerable to flamer templates. Nothing ignites like Guard-issue fatigues and flak armor.

Plasma pistols are way cooler, though. Power of the sun in the palm of your hand? Yes, please. The problem here is that the plasma is expensive, and gets one shot per turn. You have a good chance of hitting with them, but not spectacular. Plasma is designed for blasting Marines and monsters. This atually runs counter to what ASM are good at, pulping large, weak units. Marine units make armor saves all day long, attack at the same time, and often pack power weapons. That comes out to a stalemate. Unless the victim is a 5-man squad, you'll be there all day slapping each other ineffectually.

Monsters are even worse. There might not be all that many of them, but they're a pain to wound after you fire those plasma pistols unless you're toting the powerfist. Most monsters will require 6s to wound, and they have relatively reliable armor once you do wound. You'll find it tough to bonk a Carnifex or Trygon to death without the powerfist. The powerfist only gets three attacks on the charge, and two will likely hit. Should both wound, you're doing ok but are probably losing Marines to the monster's attacks beforehand due to the armor ignoring hits they put out. Most monsters will hit you half the time or better, and wound pretty much all the time. Unless you're lucky or perfect, you will be tied up with that monster for too long, and it'll cost too many Marines to take down.

The only monsters you want your ASM attacking are those with a single wound left, maybe two.

 

ASM serve two vocations: janitor and fireman.

As a janitor, you throw them in to mop up a mess one of your other units has made. Depleted units you shredded with shooting, but are too stubborn to run away like they're supposed to.

As a fireman, you keep them close to your house and have them rescue your units when they get into a situation that's too hot to handle alone. ASM are exponentially better when attacking units that are already stuck in melee, because the full brunt of the enemy's attacks has to be split between two or more units.

[Myxx]

my DIY Chapter is plasma heavy, so I run a 5 man ASM with Chaplain, with jump packs. 3 plasma pistols and 2 power weapons, with rerolls on the assault. Usually makes a mess of things. In higher point games, I bump them to 10 man, add another plas, and if I really want to burn points, throw in a captain to boot...