Mech vs Jumpers

[Kaldoth]

Well, its time to start another space marine army for me. I've settled on playing Raven Guard, but I don't know exactly what kind of list id like to play. Im a bit torn between rhino rushing and assault squads/drop pods. Ive always been a sit back and blow em up from afar kind of player, so I want to try my hand at a close combat oriented force for tournamentthe play. Problem is I don't know which list would be more effective. I've always been a firm believer that the more bodies you have on the table, the better. Rhinos and would be cheaper and just as maneuverable, but I find that they are too easy to pop open. Assault squads and pods would get me in the fight faster, but in the 1500 pt bracket I'm scared that those choices will eat up too many points, leaving me with too few fieldable units. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Cheers,

-Kal

[Maj Tom]

Well if you are going the fluff route with your tournament Raven Guard, many don't. Then drop pods, scouts, assault squads, bikes, speeders. Anything that hits hard and moves fast, in my opinion. Definatly bring Shrike for wonderful infiltrating goodness. Put him in an assault squad, infiltrate, you get the first turn then you may very weel be assaulting in the first turn on a nice juicy target. You need to be careful for balance though. Too many pods may leave your squads stranded if they drift too far or you made a mistake in placing them. But then again you have other fast moving units to back your Tactical Squads that deploy from pods. RG are all about hitting hard and fast with deep strike, scout, and infiltrate.

[NemFX]

When in doubt, razorbacks are the ones with the biggest guns that are in your available choices.

[old git]

Depends what you expect at the tournies you attend. If there's a fair amount of cover then a jumping force can work, using the terrain to advance behind thus minimising casualties. If cover is sparse then you need to bring your own cover, ie rhinos/razorbacks.

[march10k]

~shrug~

 

I look at it in terms of survivability. It's like the argument of a land raider versus a lascannon dev squad. The devs are individually easier to kill than the land raider, but collectively, you can't silence the lascannons without killing every single model, while the land raider is immune to most shooting, but it only takes one bad result on the damage table to end the party.

 

So, transports or jump packs? Same deal. As long as the transport is alive, it's going to deliver the entire squad un-shot-at...but if you destroy it, not only are the marines exposed to enemy fire, they're on foot! BA excepted, razorbacks are even worse...since they can't move any faster than foot infantry if they want to be able to shoot.

 

Pods...well, if you could assault out of them...nuff said!

 

Personally, I'm in favor of the jump-packers. Sure, they're vulnerable to enemy fire. But they're fast, they retain a good measure of their effectiveness until the squad is completely exterminated, and when you're taking an entire army of them "but they'll be fire magnets" becomes silly. One or two units of jump packs are high priority targets...a whole army of them...well, they're not any more a target than footsloggers would be.

[the jeske]

.well, they're not any more a target than footsloggers would be.

 

yes but they are easier to kill . If you try doa against DE or IG or draigo wing they die too fast . They are good against armies which take 2-3 turns to make your army not able to win[which is more or less vanila space marines non deathstar builds] and which due to being meq have problem with delivering a hard counter[soB for example] . DoA or DoA like armies against most other builds are too vunerable and being able to get in to hth isnt such an awesome thing against chaos/sw/GK/BA when unlike them their every special/hvy weapon is killing a marine and not trying to pop his transport .

[Solid Zaku]

Or you could try for the Vanshrikebomb deathstar unit. It's risky as hell, and you don't get the normal advantage of the Vanguards, but it's one of the most brutal alpha strike builds I've ever seen.

[the jeske]

with I 4 0_o realy ? and costing like a unit of multi wound paladins . while being t4 sv+3 and no FnP . even honor guard does death star better then venguard.

[Solid Zaku]

Can paladins jump with lightning talons? Expensive and a little ungainly? What deathstar isn't?

[Wysten]

Doesn't mean it's a good deathstar. Heh

 

If your using Codex Marines, Mech all the way. Codex Marines isn't really melee codex without termies, but rather a shooting codex with tough armour. The jumpack style is only really done well in Blood Angels due to being able to take highly mobile units as troops, something codex marines doesn't really have access to. 12inch movement with solid enough shooting and good melee prospects? Sounds solid to me with FNP and blood angels is pretty much the perfect codex, and with a bit of count has can repersent a Revan Guard strike force, emerging from the shadows with scouts and fast moving jet troopers, closing an ambush after months of setting this epic ambush up. It doesn't have to have any of the more overtly blood angels themes in it, just use the codex to convay a feeling of a fast moving army and use/don't use their specialist units.

[Hemal]

I suppose to use stretch the analgoy - Vanshrikewing is really a Glass Cannon of a unit. It can dish out hurt, but taking it is a different matter. Unless they can defeat opponentsnad swepp into others insingle rounds they are dead...only PA, so can be shot up by enough bullters, and prone to death by Leman Russ or Vindicator

[plasman]

I'm surprised how RG players often underestimate Terminators.

Jump pack assault squads supported by Termies popping up at the right time and place can be decisive. Of course "popping up at the right time and place" is the key sentence, but hey that's the joy of playing a fluffy army, sometimes you ‘d better be lucky. :P

[ak-73]

Well, its time to start another space marine army for me. I've settled on playing Raven Guard, but I don't know exactly what kind of list id like to play. Im a bit torn between rhino rushing and assault squads/drop pods. Ive always been a sit back and blow em up from afar kind of player, so I want to try my hand at a close combat oriented force for tournamentthe play. Problem is I don't know which list would be more effective. I've always been a firm believer that the more bodies you have on the table, the better. Rhinos and would be cheaper and just as maneuverable, but I find that they are too easy to pop open. Assault squads and pods would get me in the fight faster, but in the 1500 pt bracket I'm scared that those choices will eat up too many points, leaving me with too few fieldable units. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Cheers,

-Kal

 

Vanilla marines? Their Assault Marines suck because they don't have any special rules or special gear to make them really good in melee. Vanguards get them but are still worse than Assault Terminators in melee point-for-point.

 

If you want a jumper army, paint them as Raven Guards, buy the Blood Angels codex and run them as BAs. Vanillas are mechanized, at least if you want to play competitively.

 

Alex

[march10k]

.well, they're not any more a target than footsloggers would be.

 

yes but they are easier to kill .

 

 

If you mean because of their rhino ward save, that's half true. Once the rhino is popped, the footsloggers take an extra turn or three to get anywhere, giving the enemy more time to kill him. Jumpers start taking anti-infantry fire earlier, but they're faster than mech to begin with, and they don't slow down when the first model dies the way footsloggers do. Mech is critical for GEQ, because of their crappy saves and T3, but for MEQ, it really only makes sense for tactical squads, and only to get scoring units around the board...not so much to keep them safer (unless you're spamming 5-man units, but in that case, your lack of survivability is self-inflicted!), since only one model need survive to score, but to get them there faster. MEQs don't need the rhino's hull so much as they need its engines. If they're able to move 12", pop smoke, and live to move 12" more on turn two, the 5" movement advantage that they've gained over running justifies the cost. Not losing a model or three along the way is secondary. In those same two turns, running jumpers move 31", a significant gain over the 24" offered by a rhino...and that assumes that the rhino isn't destroyed, stunned, or immobilized before its first or second movement phase, which, with AV11, is not uncommon!

 

Vanilla marines? Their Assault Marines suck because they don't have any special rules or special gear to make them really good in melee.

 

That's a comparative argument (blood angels are better!). The fact is, they are good. Three attacks per model on the charge at a marine's statline, and with a 18" charge range, a virtual guarantee of getting the charge? That's definitely "really good in melee." If you make them as good as blood angels, you'll in turn be forced to buff the blood angels, since they're supposed to be better than the baseline assault marine...and then we're right back to saying "they're not as good as blood angels, therefore they're terrible." That said, if you want an entire army of jump-packers, us C:BA for best results.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

Being a huge fan of scouts and jump assaults (What is better than decending on the flamed wings to bring death to your foe?) I have magnetized my captain for standard and jump pack assembly. I love dropping them into the fight and letting them go to town and get out to go to the next point. I play more of fluff based and enjoy my list as you are seeming to go tournament wise, I would agree with most that the Blood Angels are the way to go. I have a buddy who loves Raven guard and runs as many jump assault squads as he can with shrike.

 

I would say play one and see where it makes your mind wander then try the other because even with a great list, practice makes the player and makes it enjoyable.

[ak-73]

That's a comparative argument (blood angels are better!). The fact is, they are good.

 

I didn't mean this in comparison to BAs. I think the vanilla version is pointless. So they get 3 attacks if they manage to charge that is 30 attacks at best. That is still 30 S4 AP - attacks. At I4. And you don't get the charge with any certainty, not against every army out there.

 

Shooty armies torrent your Assault Guys away, choppy armies laugh at Assault Marines. Can't threaten Nidzillas, lose against Wyches, are merely equal to Grey Hunters in melee, get pawned if Furious Charged by other assault marines (BA?), Grey Knights won't even bother to care.

 

The thing is that they can't take on other units that are good in melee and for those that aren't good I usually don't need Assault Marines. I'd rather teleport some Assault Terminators nearby and have the enemy running scared.

 

Alex

[Warp Angel]

Jump troops fill a "Hunter" or "Cleaner" role. They aren't stone cold killers the way that terminators or vanguard can be and they're pretty useless as a defender or firebase.

 

They are best used against specific targets (as hunters) where if they aren't stopped, they're pretty much guaranteed to cause havoc and tip a game in your favor quickly. Even if they never do any damage, the amount of firepower that might get sent their way in the early game turns may preserve your more potent (or more important) forces for other things.

 

They're also very useful for picking off weakened units or small "objective grabbers" (in a Cleaner role). Their speed is very important here since you need to get there quickly to mop up so your more potent (or more important) forces can go off and do more.

 

Look at them as a force multiplier when deployed as part of an integrated force rather than as a force themselves.

 

I personally find that bikes do everything that I'd normally ask assault troops to do (there are limitations, especially around terrain) and are also equipped with vastly greater firepower and survivability.

 

Full assault squad against MEQ, assuming the charge

 

27 basic attacks. 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 failed save = 1/12 attacks will result in an unsaved wound or about 2 casualties. Sarge adds 1 or 2 more.

9 attacks back, 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 failed save = 1/12 or about 1 casualty. Sarge adds 1 or 2 more.

Summary: You cannot assume that an assault squad will reliably win combat by meaningful measures.

 

Full bike squad against MEQ, assuming the charge

 

17 basic attacks. 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 failed save = 1/12 (1 unsaved wound). Sarge adds 1 or 2 more.

9 basic attacks back. 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/3 failed save = 1/18 (usually 0-1). Sarge adds 1 or 2 more.

Summary: You cannot assume that a bike squad will reliably win combat by meaningful measures, but you can count on them losing fewer models.

 

So what you'd look to do to make your victory margins better would be to inflict wounds by shooting to "soften up" the enemy.

 

Last time I checked 2 special weapons, 1 heavy weapon, and 8 twin linked bolters with relentless were better at softening up an enemy than a handful of pistol shots with some very limited special weapon support thrown in.

 

Since bikes and assault marines both have the issue of being subject to basic shooting when crossing the board, we need to factor in the likelihood that bikes will survive to actually do what you want them to do. T5 and a multi-wound model for wound allocation vs. T4 and no multiwound models would also seem to indicate that durability is in the bike's favor as well.

 

When you factor in "softening up", durability, and relative outcomes of assaults, bikes are far superior to assault squads in most of the roles that I would use an assault squad in. Throw in the ability to fight meaningfully at range, and I really struggle to justify playing assault squads whose price is similar to that of the bike squad.