Land Raider Achilles

[CaptinLoken]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/achilles2.jpghttp://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product...e/achilles2.jpg

 

As you may know the new forgeworld has opened up to normal 40k games as well apock...My question is if you take the Landraider Achilles does the Str 4 Air burster rounds on this landraider count as Defensive weapons that I could fire 60"? I know its simple but it seems a bit of a shocker and double checking with a community to make sure I don't look as foolish in my table top community for asking.

Edited December 11, 2011 by CaptinLoken

[dswanick]

1. Yes, Str 4 weapons are Defensive and so can be fired on the move.

2. Don't automatically assume your opponents will be willing to play a Codex Warhammer 40,000 game against your Forge World stuff just because Forge World says you can. I'd recommend that you still ask for permission before including any in your lists.

[CaptinLoken]

Ahhh Defiantly we sold out of the Forgeworld Armory book the day it released at my hobby shop... in this case we are all eager to see them on the field. As well they are legal Tournament items arent they?

[dswanick]

Being Tournament-legal is dependant on the tournament and the organizers, but generally (in my experience) - no, FW stuff isn't usually allowed in most tournaments.

[Olis]

True. FW rules are almost always a no-go in tournaments.

[Frosty the Pyro]

2. Don't automatically assume your opponents will be willing to play a Codex Warhammer 40,000 game against your Forge World stuff just because Forge World says you can. I'd recommend that you still ask for permission before including any in your lists.

 

Indeed, the game you are playing is 40k, thus it is governed by the 40k rulebook, the 40k rulebook gives permision and priority to each armies codex. None of that gives power to forge world books. Esentialy forge world is a collection of house rules.

[Jacinda]

As well they are legal Tournament items arent they?

Local tournaments will have local rules. However I do not remember seeing any GW tourney with FW rules allowed. You can use FW's models for GW units as long as they are wysiwyg, tho.

 

Where I live, it is a mix. At the LGS, it is GW only. Forge World stuff is strictly off limits. Even in pickup games no one wants to play with FW rules. But then at my house on most any random Saturday night, those same guys will bring out the oddities. FW is welcome, just let us know what you are bringing and any unique rules for the piece before we start. I don't know why; maybe it is because at my house it is casual and at the store they want the more universal tourney style games and rules. In any case, before you suddenly plop down a new unit and claim "Forge World said I could," just remember that FW does not make GW policy. Ask the people you play with what they think.

[brakkar]

Per GW, the new Imperial Armour states whether each item in it is allowable for standard games. Thus, many of the items are permissable in a 40k match now. Of course an opponent can still refuse to play you, but that's always an option. And it does state within the Imperial Armour book that the items so marked are authorized.

 

Of course, your LGS will be the ultimate authority. Ours here is now allowing the new imperial armour book for standard games as long as the item is marked for 40k and not apoc.

Edited December 13, 2011 by brakkar

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Per GW, the new Imperial Armour states whether each item in it is allowable for standard games. Thus, many of the items are permissable in a 40k match now. Of course an opponent can still refuse to play you, but that's always an option. And it does state within the Imperial Armour book that the items so marked are authorized.

 

Of course, your LGS will be the ultimate authority. Ours here is now allowing the new imperial armour book for standard games as long as the item is marked for 40k and not apoc.

 

I thought the book stated that those units were designed to be played in 40K but you still needed opponents permission.

 

TBH I dont really care to play against FW stuff and people trying to tell me I have to cause Forgeworld says its cool leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you want to talk to me and work something out thats fine Im fairly flexible but dont try and make me out to be a terrible person because I dont want drop pods that dreadnoughts can assault out of and such. :lol:

[brakkar]

lol dreadnoughts assaulting our of pods, very bad. But i did also make the statement that your opponent could choose not to play you.

 

With that being said, Our LGS has determined that these rules in the new Imperial Armour are allowed in Tournaments per GW, so therefore, it is likely one will see these at ours. The new Imperial armour has changed the equation quite a bit since it is specifically designed for inclusion in standard games. Previously, I would have agreed with you that forge world is not authorized in standard games or tourneys, but this entity changes that logic and only applies to this particular book itself. So Imperial Armour Vol. 10, no, but Imperial Armour 2nd edition, yes for the items that are so marked.

Edited December 13, 2011 by brakkar

[Jacinda]

Per GW, ...

Do you have a source for this? Something I can point to when questioned?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Per GW, ...

Do you have a source for this? Something I can point to when questioned?

In the new Imperial Armour book it states that these are offical rules from Gamesworkshop. Or something of that nature don't have it in front of me.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I thought the book stated that those units were designed to be played in 40K but you still needed opponents permission.

 

Please see above :3

[Jacinda]

Well, yeah. FW has always said you could play FW units and FW rules for 40K games. But FW does not make Games Workshop policy. I need to see something from GW or there is no way I can play my FW stuff at the LGS. The problem is, FW is still a 3rd party. I still can not take my Repressors with a Sisters of Battle army to a GW tourney no matter how much FW trys to claim I can.

 

[ETA]

Just in case you have not noticed .... I want to play FW pieces. However I still believe that FW rules are supliments and require opponent's permission just the same as if I were to pick a fan-dex from this site and play a few games with friends. I don't have anything against FW. I would love to see some additions to my girls! But other than playing at home with friends, that is not going to happen unless GW (not FW) says the IA rules are tourney legal.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Jacinda

[KnightCommander_Almaric]

Can someone point me to the direction of this new Forgeworld book? is it in the shops only?

[dswanick]

Can someone point me to the direction of this new Forgeworld book? is it in the shops only?

http://forgeworld.co.uk/

Edited December 13, 2011 by dswanick

[Hfran Morkai]

Well Forge World is GW... :)

 

And a very interesting point that was brought up in the first Imperial Armour Apocalypse I believe was that Cities of Death and Planetstrike are official "GW" products but you can't spring them on an opponent or randomly decide you are using them in a tournament. Provided you let others know you want to play Forge World rules and let them see the book in advance (and possibly take things from it themselves) people will tend to be alright.

 

Also, regarding Lucius drop pods, yes you can assault your dread on the turn it arrives, if you want to risk immobilizing it off the bat.

[Azatoth]

Well, yeah. FW has always said you could play FW units and FW rules for 40K games. But FW does not make Games Workshop policy. I need to see something from GW or there is no way I can play my FW stuff at the LGS. The problem is, FW is still a 3rd party. I still can not take my Repressors with a Sisters of Battle army to a GW tourney no matter how much FW trys to claim I can.

 

Do you you really think FW can "claim" such a thing, if GW does not fully support it? If it was false GW would have already stepped in, but they want moneys via FW so they become allowed. FW belongs to GW as far I know.

[Jacinda]

They may be a wholly own subsidiary but FW is not GW. This is why most of the IA books have the “expansion” logo on them. They are not core rules.

 

I was excited to see that the expansion logo is not on the cover of IA vol 9 or 10. Then I noticed that these are for a specific campaign. So if I want to play a Badab War game, I can take whatever is in these books. Bummer. Still no help. They are just as viable in a GW tourney as Planet Strike or Apocalypse rules :)

 

The smoking gun I am looking for is where IA is listed in the approved books for a GW tourny or something similar. Maybe the CODEX symbol stamped in the book somewhere. That would be an iron clad answer.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

at issue is also the exact wording of what they say in regards to the "official" units. No one has provided the quote yet so I will when I get off work.

[Seahawk]

Ask and ye shall receive!

 

"As with all our models these should be considered 'official,' but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start." (IAA2ed, p.3)

 

 

"Official" is in quotation marks, indicating its quasi nature. All of their models are official, not just the 40k-stamped ones. And as indicated, they are still only opponent's permission (asking if they'd like to play against FW is essentially the same q).

[BOBMAKENZIE]

"Official" is in quotation marks, indicating its quasi nature. All of their models are official, not just the 40k-stamped ones. And as indicated, they are still only opponent's permission (asking if they'd like to play against FW is essentially the same q).

 

Seahawk :wub:

 

 

I recalled the rules as being similar to that. And its something that I think alot of people just jump over without thinking about too terribly much.

Edited December 13, 2011 by BOBMAKENZIE

[Jacinda]

Ask and ye shall receive!

 

"As with all our models these should be considered 'official,' but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start." (IAA2ed, p.3)

 

 

"Official" is in quotation marks, indicating its quasi nature. All of their models are official, not just the 40k-stamped ones. And as indicated, they are still only opponent's permission (asking if they'd like to play against FW is essentially the same q).

Oh yes. The models are fine. No one is doubting that. Whether your army is allowed to field one is another matter. It is ok to take the FW Immolator if I want. I like the GW one better but I can take the FW Immolator and no one will even bat an eye. By WYSIWYG, they are identical. OK, so I have a couple of Repressor models from FW. These are official models and can be used in 40K games. I can even take these to official GW games. But I can not field them in my SoB army no matter which IA book claims I can. C:SoB does not have Repressors. IA says SoB can take them tho. But at a GW event, the FW rules do not count. So My Repressors sit in the box and I ride around in Rhinos.

 

By the same token, I have a scibor Scifi angel I use for Belial. It looks like Belial and GW does not make a figure for him. He is considered offical at any tourney. GW does not make one and by WYSIWYG he is a special character in TDA with a stormshield and thunder hammer (at least he has one now :wub: ) Placed on a table with a DA army it is obvious who the model represents. No one askes if he is Belial. They just say, "nice Belial." Scibor says I can use this model with any army. Cool. Does that means I can take him with my SoB because he is an official model?

 

Now going back to the OP, unless your Codex has the LR Achilles, you can't just plop one down with your army and expect everyone to accept it because IA says it is good for any SM army. I don't have a problem playing with one. I wish they were official rules as well as models because I would much rather have 6 firing points than 2 for my fragile bolter-babes and will pay the point cost to get them. But FW rules are not part of the core rules. So they slum it at the LGS because it is accepted that games there are GW only.

[Venemox]

Per GW, ...

Do you have a source for this? Something I can point to when questioned?

 

I always point to the box by FW stuff comes in (even though I use them as alternate models for normal units), because the return address says 'Games Workshop'. Or the Invoice, which also says GW, or the credit card statement from when I purchased them which says I paid GW. Nothing says 'Offical' like a money trail. This goes beyond a wholely owned subsidiary and entirely into 'alias' category. Games Workshop IS Forgeworld, though saying Forgeworld is Games Workshop would be somewhat inaccurate.

 

As an aside, I also would like to draw your attetnion to the links a the bottom of the GW and FW pages. No one advertises for their competitors, that's bad business. As well as the use of the trademarked 'Warhammer 40,000' logo on the IA books. Yup, that's the same on on the Black Library books, and the Codices.

 

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and lays egg like a duck... it's probably an expansion duck. :)

[dswanick]

Games Workshop IS Forgeworld, though saying Forgeworld is Games Workshop would be somewhat inaccurate.

But the highlighted bit is the problem.

Games Workshop publishes the rules for Warhammer 40,000. Games Workshop's published rules say to use the appropriate armies Codex for unit selection and stats. It doesn't say anything about using Forgeworld Imperial Armour books or the rules contained therein. And as you pointed out, saying "Forgeworld is Games Workshop is in entirely accurate". And Games Workshop is the official source of all Warhammer 40,000 rules. The money trail is all fine and dandy. And the claim by Forgeworld that the rules are legit are fine and dandy, too. But even GW makes a point of clearly stating in their rules that the rules are "sacrosanct" or "guideline" as each group of players wants them to be. Some groups and tournaments will allow Forgeworld rules without blinking an eye. Others will only allow the Core Rulebook and GW published Codexs to be used. Heck, some groups won't even allow outdated Codexs which haven't been republished to be used. But that all leads back to the starting point of this debate - get opponent consent before using FW rules - don't just spring it on them and expect no resistance.

 

Let's spin this question another direction - you want everyone to accept Forgeworld Imperial Armour books as "Official", "Sanctioned", "Legal". Would you be willing to allow me to fire my Plasmagun using the weapon stat line:

Plasmagun, Low Power [str 5/AP 4/Rapid-fire]?

Because that is a rule which can be found in one of the Games Workshop published Chapter Approved books, which has never been rescinded or over-ruled. Chapter Approved books were published by GW, as official add-ons for the core 40k rules. So they should be at least as "official" as Forgeworld claims its stuff to be, right?