Land Raider Achilles

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Yeah, I'd be perfectly fine with that. As long as it requires a minimal amount of effort to update to 5th edition, I'm perfectly fine with any of the Chapter Approved. I'll even let you play movie marines if you can get a copy of their rules. In general, my group is a strong proponent of Forge World. Almost everyone owns and uses something from their, from a single unit or model all the way up to an incredibly beautiful Elysian army using IA:8.

[Arikel]

There's pretty much 2 things you need to play a game of 40k, a rulebook, and a codex (only need 2 if the armies are different). Everything else, including apocalypse, planet strike, city of death, all of the forgeworld stuff etc, falls under the optional category. They are official expansions that provide additional rules and units for folks who want to add things to their games(especially for narrative players, where balance is not necessarily at issue), but they are not default acceptable rules in all locations/situations by any means.

[CaptinLoken]

... So ... I didn't think this would be as big a pop up conversation as it was.... If we need to the topic can change to IA questions , I inted this to be left open for more of the units then of toury rules. ... I know in my local area we are interested in using them and may do so but wanted to ask and clarify rules before attempting them... in regular games.

 

As for rules ... it is always giong to be of your opposing player wanting to play you or not.... like no one wants to play leaf blower on any day... let alone in events...

[Hellios]

As for rules ... it is always giong to be of your opposing player wanting to play you or not.... like no one wants to play leaf blower on any day... let alone in events...

Much wisdom.

 

.

 

TBH I dont really care to play against FW stuff and people trying to tell me I have to cause Forgeworld says its cool leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you want to talk to me and work something out thats fine Im fairly flexible but dont try and make me out to be a terrible person because I dont want drop pods that dreadnoughts can assault out of and such. :D

 

You are just as terrible as the people who refuse to play against me when I have my Dark Eldar (all codex) army because it 'broken'... I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion... On the other hand Lucius pattern dropods (not familiar with the new slightly toned down rules... So I'm referring to the old ones.) are one of the few FW units that is broken... although I could name some things in standard codices that are not well thought out... If someone is using that unit in such a way as it brakes the game... that isn't cool... an eleven dread Blood Angels army for example would be a joke... When I've taken a Mortis pattern dread in one for my Deathwing army I don't think I'm doing anything wrong there...

 

As Loken says it is pretty much a social contract thing. If you refuse to play against someone because they use FW stuff (and that is the only reason... As an extreme example I've seen people refuse to play against FW models using codex rules...) then you are a terrible person. However no one should try and force you to play a game that you don't find fun... and if someone is using FW units in an abusive way... Don't play... That is however no different from refusing to play against a WAAC power gamer using just a codex list.

 

 

There's pretty much 2 things you need to play a game of 40k, a rulebook, and a codex (only need 2 if the armies are different). Everything else, including apocalypse, planet strike, city of death, all of the forgeworld stuff etc, falls under the optional category. They are official expansions that provide additional rules and units for folks who want to add things to their games(especially for narrative players, where balance is not necessarily at issue), but they are not default acceptable rules in all locations/situations by any means.

 

Nothing is default acceptable... You can't make someone play 40K as I said I've had people refuse to play me (people I don't know) based on the codex I use. If you want to say they are strange individuals I've also seen events that have banned certain codices, units, equipment or house ruled in such a way to change the rules completely. That aside everything else is just as acceptable as anything else if the other person agrees... Although I disagree with the anti-FW default stance some people have... I'm ok with anti-certain units or army lists but the default ban makes me sad.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

...

As Loken says it is pretty much a social contract thing. If you refuse to play against someone because they use FW stuff (and that is the only reason... As an extreme example I've seen people refuse to play against FW models using codex rules...) then you are a terrible person. However no one should try and force you to play a game that you don't find fun... and if someone is using FW units in an abusive way... Don't play... That is however no different from refusing to play against a WAAC power gamer using just a codex list.

...

 

Well I can see how I phrased my first paragraph there poorly. So let me rehash. I agree with you infact I own an ork megadread and I've talked it over with people sometimes so I can play it in a game. (it helps that hte megadread is pretty meh for its pts) What I dont like is being told that I should just play Forgeworld stuff because Forgeworld stuff is 'official' (Despite the fact the very same rule says ask me first!) it makes me feel extremely :bittervet: about this game. What Im completely fine with is hashing out a game by game (or even opponent by opponent really) deal on what sort of forgeworld is allowed where and when. The same goes for any tournament I run, if you want to come to me and talk about using a forgeworld piece Im fine at taking a look at the rules (heck I probably already have an ok idea what it does) and then allowing it/disallowing it/rarely tweaking something as I see fit. What I will not see myself doing at this moment in time is going to something with people I dont know where Forgeworld is just cleanslate allowed. I dont need that sort of force fed house ruling (for the record I also despite INAT for the same sort of reasons.)

[CaptinLoken]

BOBMAKENZIE thanks for coming level with the question its very mature and thank you for not thinking this as we are opening attacking your point of view. If this be a better place to ask it... do you think the Land raider achilles to be over the top of a forgeworld item? This is towards an open world question to everyone...

 

I know my community is fore trying to bring the larger forgeworld into normal 40k games but .. it isn't about forcing it so much as is it giong to break the game or ... level it.... for example I hear the CAESTUS ASSAULT RAM is the codex marine variation to the storm raven. Does this balance the dex comparison or shift more wieght back to other then blood codex?...

 

I do like how the possible ruling that FW updating some options outside of a codex does help level out the waves of codex coming out the line. The armies like Dark Angels wouldn't feel left out for the dark ages of 40k... This is again more towards the desires of my community and not towards the national or 40k in a whole has to do.

 

I don't think many of the approved 40k games are game breakers just spices of new flavor... is there anything in there that is over the top? If so mention them I would love to hear them....

[dswanick]

@CaptainLoken : I'll be the first to say I think that, outside of Apocalypse, the Achilles is an OTT/OP unit. Think about this:

For just over 400pts you can have an AV14 all around vehicle which ignores Melta, Lance, and Crew Stunned and gets a -1 on Penetrating Damage rolls (rendering it nearly immune to damage except for S10 Ordnance and lucky hits) which can always fire its 60" cannon (thanks to PotMS and a S4 shot option), can transport a Techmarine and 5 servitors (to override those pesky Immobilized and Weapon Destroyed results) and can punish troops and open up vehicles with ease.

 

Would you want to face that and two Tactical Squads in two Land Raiders squating on objectives with your 1,250pt list?

Space Marine Captain - 100pts

Space Marine Tactical squad - 90pts

Land Raider - 250pts

Space Marine Tactical squad - 90pts

Land Raider - 250pts

Techmarine w/ 5 servitors - 100pts

Land Raider Achilles - 325pts

Total - 1,205pts

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Dswanick, you need to work on your cheesiness. :D More WAAC, I tell you!

 

What I'd do is take the Achilles, then stick Chronus, a Techmarine, a Master of the Forge, and a single unit of four servitors, giving them both a +4 repair bonus because of the way the rules are worded. You then have a nigh invulnerable tank of doom that ignores anything except a six on the damage chart. Uberness in a box, and you've filled the mandatory HQ. For fun at a higher points level, we could even take another Achilles with two Techmarines, or maybe a scout squad and a techmarine, and/or as many Dreadnoughts with Lucius Drop Pods as possible. Actually, I think I'll make a list like that just for fun.

[dswanick]

@CMI : :D Yeah, I wanted to include Chronus, but that put the points total over the 1,250pts limit I chose. If I were going for a 1,500pt list I would definitely take your advice on the MotF and Chronus.

[Hellios]

@CaptainLoken : I'll be the first to say I think that, outside of Apocalypse, the Achilles is an OTT/OP unit. Think about this:

For just over 400pts you can have an AV14 all around vehicle which ignores Melta, Lance, and Crew Stunned and gets a -1 on Penetrating Damage rolls (rendering it nearly immune to damage except for S10 Ordnance and lucky hits) which can always fire its 60" cannon (thanks to PotMS and a S4 shot option), can transport a Techmarine and 5 servitors (to override those pesky Immobilized and Weapon Destroyed results) and can punish troops and open up vehicles with ease.

 

Would you want to face that and two Tactical Squads in two Land Raiders squating on objectives with your 1,250pt list?

Space Marine Captain - 100pts

Space Marine Tactical squad - 90pts

Land Raider - 250pts

Space Marine Tactical squad - 90pts

Land Raider - 250pts

Techmarine w/ 5 servitors - 100pts

Land Raider Achilles - 325pts

Total - 1,205pts

 

Swop out one of those LRs for another Achilles a few other changes and I've played against a 1,500pt list with the same kind of idea... I was also using Eldar and considering the reliance of many Eldar lists on lance and melta for anti-tank... :Z it was tough!

 

I won however due to the fact that he had so little... Once the raiders are gone that is essentially his army gone... It isn't like rhinos where they can die after a turn and they may have done their job. I got fairly lucky with one Achilles I admit! It went poop in the 2nd turn... A squad of Wraithguard :tu: The standard lander raider was just a standard land raider >.< so not a huge problem for the Eldar... The final Achilles I could not destroy :'(

 

I'm not confident I would auto-win against such a list but my Eldar list is prepared for it... Some armies I admit would not... and I think my Dark Eldar list would laugh at such a list :D unless they are immune to haywire grenades.

 

 

Orks for example would cry... and guard lists that rely on melta-vets to open armour.

 

--Edit--

Both the Achilles and CAR often cited as broken/OTT/OP units might well be OTT but I'm not sure they are OP. They eat a lot of points and often a list that uses them relies on them and in a varied all comers environment that will harm you when facing certain lists. Also if I'm honest a unit that discourages melta-spam and missile/auto-cannon spam is a good thing assuming that armies have other options! Orks for example lack anti-tank options in general... Normally needing to get close... not good if you need to survive the Achilles first or getting stupidly lucky with the Shokk attack gun. Is the Achilles perfectly balanced? Nah... Is it the be all and end all? No... If it was the same price as a normal raider then hell yeahs... or if it could mess up someones game as badly as the Lucius pattern drop pod... Then yeah. However I feel it is a no. I repsect others have their own opinions.

[dswanick]

@Helios - I hear you, and mostly I agree. For me, the biggest "problem" with the Achilles (and other units - GW and FW) is the same problem 40K has always had just exagerated - namely that the core units of an army have no ability to deal with these specialist units. Facing an opponent with an Achilles or one of these other units can render your non-tailored, all-comers list useless. It's one thing for a basic unit to struggle against a given enemy unit, they are generalists whos primary function is to score objectives. But I don't think any unit should come pre-equipped with the mindset that "I can just drive this model around the board and curb-stomp everything!". It smacks of pandering to the pre-teen, instant gratification demographic.

This probably comes from my personal preference for building lists that reflect the published fluff of an army, have a good representative balance of units based on the armies background, and aren't tailored to one specific game against a particular opponent. As such, most lists built this way will not be spamming the one possible counter-measure to this particular unit and if it is, then it will seriously be hurting in most other aspects of the game.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

BOBMAKENZIE thanks for coming level with the question its very mature and thank you for not thinking this as we are opening attacking your point of view. If this be a better place to ask it... do you think the Land raider achilles to be over the top of a forgeworld item? This is towards an open world question to everyone...

 

...

 

I don't think many of the approved 40k games are game breakers just spices of new flavor... is there anything in there that is over the top? If so mention them I would love to hear them....

 

No problem I like a good argument ;) The Achilles is probably one of only a bare handful of Forgeworld units I think are over the top (and that doesnt mean there arent over the top units in the normal codexs) What irritates me is that some of the units are just clear improvements on units that are already in the codexs. Most people point to the eldar mini skimmer and call it a straight improvement on the vypre (im not sure I agree but that doesnt matter..) As well many of the army lists can be quite ridiculous and I get that they arent saying the lists are 40K approved but its a dangerous path to start treading IMO. This might come from my background with D&D where by there are too many players that seem to obsess with finding each and every tiny rules interaction that breaks the game and then instead of writing it off as strange or funny they, you know break the game.

[Hellios]

D&D where by there are too many players that seem to obsess with finding each and every tiny rules interaction that breaks the game and then instead of writing it off as strange or funny they, you know break the game.

 

Hey I like becoming a god! However once I become a god I don't do anything helpful for the rest of the party... Hell I spent 5 years pulling carts in a mine...

 

As for the the Vyper thing... It depends on what kind of weapon load out you want! A double scatter laser load out on one of them is far superior choice when compared with a scatter laser + shuriken catapult vyper. I personally think the Vyper is a bit naff XD I rate land speeders more and they do pretty much the same thing!

[CaptinLoken]

I see where your coming from with the Achilles being over the top... generally my all comers list are heavy fluff more so then tank tournament lists...

 

Wouldnt the lower rate of fire this unit put out also compare well to being a knock down as well? It has to fire the TFC as well a TLMM at the same target and split fire to a 3rd to fire all weapons... just seems weaker in the fire ...not in the punishment area... just less of it...

 

Then again its a freaken monster of soaking fire...so what is the difference?.

 

The community is always going to have people meta game ... my community is an example of it and I get tired of it in both Dnd as well 40k... The recent spark up of competition is simply to see if this notch up is a soak all even or not. I'll write back once i get more eyes from my end... on such a topic.

[Roland Durendal]

I like (and use and my gaming group let's me use) my FW Elysians b/c:

 

a). the models are beautiful

:huh:. in terms of army list balance, IA:8, and the Elysian army list especially, are probably one of FW's best written and well balanced lists. You don't even need to use FW "flier" rules (or fliers at all like the Imperial Navy option under HS) to make a good list, because there are so many "core rules" legal and legit options out there (Drop Sentinels and the Tauros variants come to mind)

[Azatoth]

@CaptainLoken : I'll be the first to say I think that, outside of Apocalypse, the Achilles is an OTT/OP unit. Think about this:

For just over 400pts you can have an AV14 all around vehicle which ignores Melta, Lance, and Crew Stunned and gets a -1 on Penetrating Damage rolls (rendering it nearly immune to damage except for S10 Ordnance and lucky hits) which can always fire its 60" cannon (thanks to PotMS and a S4 shot option), can transport a Techmarine and 5 servitors (to override those pesky Immobilized and Weapon Destroyed results) and can punish troops and open up vehicles with ease.

 

Would you want to face that and two Tactical Squads in two Land Raiders squating on objectives with your 1,250pt list?

Space Marine Captain - 100pts

Space Marine Tactical squad - 90pts

Land Raider - 250pts

Space Marine Tactical squad - 90pts

Land Raider - 250pts

Techmarine w/ 5 servitors - 100pts

Land Raider Achilles - 325pts

Total - 1,205pts

 

Dumb question from me. If the TM and his Servitors are inside the Achilles, they are not in play right? They can shoot, but they should not be able to repair it, till the disembark?

[Isiah]

OK I think the original rules question has been answered. Talk tactics, general Achilles discussion and list-building elsewhere please.

 

Cheers

I

[Venemox]

But the highlighted bit is the problem.

Games Workshop publishes the rules for Warhammer 40,000. Games Workshop's published rules say to use the appropriate armies Codex for unit selection and stats. It doesn't say anything about using Forgeworld Imperial Armour books or the rules contained therein. And as you pointed out, saying "Forgeworld is Games Workshop is in entirely accurate". And Games Workshop is the official source of all Warhammer 40,000 rules. The money trail is all fine and dandy. And the claim by Forgeworld that the rules are legit are fine and dandy, too. But even GW makes a point of clearly stating in their rules that the rules are "sacrosanct" or "guideline" as each group of players wants them to be. Some groups and tournaments will allow Forgeworld rules without blinking an eye. Others will only allow the Core Rulebook and GW published Codexs to be used. Heck, some groups won't even allow outdated Codexs which haven't been republished to be used. But that all leads back to the starting point of this debate - get opponent consent before using FW rules - don't just spring it on them and expect no resistance.

 

Let's spin this question another direction - you want everyone to accept Forgeworld Imperial Armour books as "Official", "Sanctioned", "Legal". Would you be willing to allow me to fire my Plasmagun using the weapon stat line:

Plasmagun, Low Power [str 5/AP 4/Rapid-fire]?

Because that is a rule which can be found in one of the Games Workshop published Chapter Approved books, which has never been rescinded or over-ruled. Chapter Approved books were published by GW, as official add-ons for the core 40k rules. So they should be at least as "official" as Forgeworld claims its stuff to be, right?

 

Very well worded, good sir, as always. I didn't mean to imply that I think FW should be completely accepted across the board universilly and without qustion, but rather that the same people write those books and benefit from us using them. To borrow your phrase get your opponent consent... before playing anything. The idea that TO's limit the books and rules used is to establish that consent in advance, for tournaments. And that's a good thing. To really show my gamer geek chic, I liken it to playing tournament level Magic: The Gathering. 'You can have 4 of any card in your deck, except that one, or this one; and limted to sets X,Y, and Z'. It establishes that social gaming contract before players meet to provide equal knowledge of the metagame within specified limits. As far as friendly pick up games go, I love to play against beautiful armies (probably becasue I'm incapable of making one myself :P ), and that goes a long way into getting me to agree to play against almost anything (FW, homebrew, mixed forces, whatever you can justify with a good story and a well presented army).

 

Back to the more immediate topic (I apologize for helping to derail the thread, I should know better), that Achilles is one intimidating looking tank! I really love the way FW makes their models *pop* out on the table.

[dswanick]

@CaptainLoken : I'll be the first to say I think that, outside of Apocalypse, the Achilles is an OTT/OP unit. Think about this:

 

Dumb question from me. If the TM and his Servitors are inside the Achilles, they are not in play right? They can shoot, but they should not be able to repair it, till the disembark?

Incorrect - Codex: Space Marines FAQ

Q: Can a Techmarine, or Master of the Forge, attempt

to use his Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule to

repair a vehicle he is currently embarked upon? (p70,71)

A: Yes.

[KJQ]

Couldn't resist chiming in on this as I've played the Achilles, Caestus, and Lucius DP since they first came out.

 

First, on the OP - yes, the TFC using the Subterranean shells can be fired as a defensive weapon. That's not really that much of an advantage as movement is still max. 6".

 

On the topic of using these (and other FW models/units), the first and most important rule is always to get your opponent's consent prior to playing any of them. No one likes surprises (i.e. anything outside the normal BRB/Codexes). I have to say that I think GW/FW intend these units to be played in normal 40K games and tournaments as they took great pains in the new IAA 2nd Ed) to distinguish "40K" from "apocalypse" units and rules. Also, GW sells these books on their web site (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1390181a), so it's hard to argue they don't approve them. Our LGW allows them in all tournaments, but I understand other's don't - so ask before building a list for a tournament.

 

On the issue of these vehicles being 'over the top', I think they've significantly nurfed the rules/cost for each of them in the new IAA 2nd Ed (i.e. since the 'conditional' rules came out). They're all more expensive points wise. Each Lucius now takes up a FOC FA slot, and the dread risks being immobilized on exit if trying to assault. You still have to get the pod within 8" of the unit you want to assault without a DSM, which is no small feat, especially in your opponent's back field. The Caestus is no longer immune to the melta rule, and dies almost as fast as any other vehicle as it's side/rear armor is weak and it's almost guaranteed to be in LOS from anywhere on the table as it's so high. The Achilles is arguably the toughest vehicle in the game, but it is very limited in troops it can carry, and it's essentially just a 'hardened' TFC with some anti-tank capability. It's very expensive now (325+ points) and not worth it except in high point games where it isn't a game changer and can safely be ignored.

 

All three look great on paper (hence my spending a small fortune to buy them from FW), but don't really deliver all that much. Certainly not worth worrying about as an opponent - except maybe horde armies ;-)

 

Just my two cents worth.