The Tyrant.

[the jeske]

I suspect that renegade marines in the Maelstrom called themselves Red Corsairs for thousands of years before the Badab war.

then why isnt it in the fluff ? they mention stuff like violators , the thunder barons which realy arent anything special[and in the case of TB dead] but there is no info about a huge storm wide renegade space marine organization or who before huron was its leader ?

Being a former chapter master and coalition leader he obviously has some credibility.

and other chaos leaders werent chapter masters/cpts and didnt do alliances with other warbands , before huron came . specialy as some of those were more numerouse then the hurons forces after badab .

I mean its as if a 100 strong merc band was suddenly joined by a force 100 times its size . why would they do that ? because the leader of the merc is awesome ? leadership doesnt work that way , being a leader doesnt work that way . I mean huron wouldnt even have enough man to control those new troops . 300 man lets say legion size is around 10k [but he is BL size and they are the biggest chaos legion right now so it could be more] , he has to keep half with him as personal bodyguard , we dont know how many die before entering the storm and getting a legion size force , but we know that the warp is one of the most deadly enviroments there is . he would have 15 dudes per warband . how would the control work a corsair glued with a gun to the head of each lord ? I mean abadon demands respect , but he also has the BL . someone doesnt listen he gets hit by a hammer . what would a lord or a coalition of lords [temporary of course] fear of he betrayed huron ? his 300 man ? or his legion mix and match force he can never trust . it even wouldnt work on a religiouse/cult level because unlike abadon huron is not marked by the 4 chaos gods as their champion .

 

 

As for WB been the same as cult troops I would have to disagree, they are undivided in the same way as the other Legions.

there is a huge difference between not worshiping or following any gods and using it as a tool or in ad hoc rituals for short gains and a full worship of all chaos entities not just the 4 main gods . they are as different as a band of mercenerise is to the medival knigthly monastic orders. If anything WB are ultra cult , because they dont follow just one god and one god only .

 

Why would you expect the WB to be subservient?

because when you win or gain the upper hand you dont leave stuff alive , you take everything . why take slaves and some supplies if your stronger and can take everything . the only moment when you dont do it , is when managing the new gains costs too much . That would have to mean that the WB would have to become like soviet satalite states to the USSR . The very idea that GW may find it "cool" for a 300 years renegade to order around 10k years primarchs and his legions , short time after losing almost everything[including half his own body] is not just not making sense , because with that we learned to live , it is a stupid idea . Its like making the white consuls the chapter every other chapter seen as the most iconic and their leader so perfect that he is seen as the spiritual liege of most loyalist chapters.

 

 

Theres enough over the top rubbish out there, Calgar and the Avatar, Draigo and all the rest. Hurons background consists or repeated solid military victories, with the crowning jewel of taking down a Fortress Monastary. It is good solid background, not over the top on his exploits. It is what a Special Characters Background ought to be.

taking down monesteries is nothing . AL infiltrated a chapter so much that after a time the chapter was more or less under their control And then they went of with all the geen seed. thats something awesome . He doesnt have real victories . burning down a planets population for sacrifice , is nice but its nothing new . there are dudes that went DP after scourging whole planet systems and they were legion members with much bigger forces then huron [as the 300 +/- dudes he had after badab] , but oddly enough those dudes dont get forces the size of legions . why? their victories are more important or bigger in scale , why arent the renegades flocking under their banners [and to rival legion size it would have to be a few thousand man + whole fleets of warships and then double that of supplies and they would need bases/forges/resources and ammo/fuel dumps] ? ah yes they arent because it would be stupid .

 

 

as uber mensch fluff goes for dudes like draigo or calgar [am not commenting on avatar . they are shards of the god .them not being engines of destruction is like real demon princes not being the same] they are that . the fluff is over the top , it is a marketing ploy . in the case of draigo it is totaly new fluff . But it does make the ultramarines and GK players happy . huron doesnt make people happy. Legion players go :down: how does a dude that lost and ended up with 300 man get bigger then us . how is it possible that his force is suddenly second to BL and abadon ? because GW said so ? well GW did a lot of things with the last chaos dex and most chaos players were/are/will not be happy about it .

 

you could say am biased , but If I am wrong and the new fluff for huron is good and makes sense , there where are all the corsair players . why when we talk about generic chaos list we dont say corsair[different marines under huron] , but BL .

Where is the "today huron killed" . its not there people didnt like the new fluff , because it was stupid , it didnt make sense and it took everything special about him [failed warlord turned space pirate out for glory] to nothing . what it gave us is an abadon clone on steroids . When for abadon it took ages [or rather milenias] to rebuild the BL , to go through legion wars , black crusades , packts with legions and gods , huron did the same and it only took him 100th of the time with fewer resources and bigger foes around .

 

The only way GW could have made him more stupid is to say that he became aspirant after destroying a squad of csm who attacked his village ... when he was 12.

 

Thats simply not true. And as for Gellar fields and Navigators, yes they do... certainly Navigators... Present within Chaos Vessel in Blood Reaver.

the 1ksons dont need them . BL doesnt realy use navigators their sorc are better. only the chaos gods knows how WE travel the starts without killing each other . space hulks that DG uses to raid planets dont have galler fields.

it would be very very hard for legions to get their hands on good [and they would have to be realy good to be used inside the eye of terror] navigators because they generaly dont live for 10k years .

[Hellios]

Thats simply not true. And as for Gellar fields and Navigators, yes they do... certainly Navigators... Present within Chaos Vessel in Blood Reaver.

the 1ksons dont need them . BL doesnt realy use navigators their sorc are better. only the chaos gods knows how WE travel the starts without killing each other . space hulks that DG uses to raid planets dont have galler fields.

it would be very very hard for legions to get their hands on good [and they would have to be realy good to be used inside the eye of terror] navigators because they generaly dont live for 10k years .

 

I'll add to this that some DG ships have been mentioned not using navigators.

 

Some do but some apparently don't... As Jeske mentions it probably has something to do with having sorcerers but it also probably helps if you are a member of a devout group of marines... The exalted's warband don't seem to be the most dedicated lot on the whole...

[TheDarkApostle]

Word Bearers have deactivated all their Gellar Fields and actively invite Daemons to their ships. And they don't use Navigators as they have Dark Apsotles / First Acolytes / other Sorcerers / let the Gods decide where they end up.

 

TDA

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'll add to this that some DG ships have been mentioned not using navigators.

 

Some do but some apparently don't... As Jeske mentions it probably has something to do with having sorcerers but it also probably helps if you are a member of a devout group of marines... The exalted's warband don't seem to be the most dedicated lot on the whole...

 

And yet Ruven, an entirely undevoted Sorceror, is fully capable of navigating a ship.

 

In response to Jeske though, I'll ask whether you've got a source for claiming that Sorcerors are outright better at navigation than an actual Navigator is. We know the Black Legion make use of some sorcerors to navigate their ships, however we do not know that they don't use any Navigators, or whether Navigators are better or worse. I get that you don't like Huron, but don't make stuff up to help back your argument.

[Icarsun]

I'll add to this that some DG ships have been mentioned not using navigators.

 

Some do but some apparently don't... As Jeske mentions it probably has something to do with having sorcerers but it also probably helps if you are a member of a devout group of marines... The exalted's warband don't seem to be the most dedicated lot on the whole...

 

And yet Ruven, an entirely undevoted Sorceror, is fully capable of navigating a ship.

 

In response to Jeske though, I'll ask whether you've got a source for claiming that Sorcerors are outright better at navigation than an actual Navigator is. We know the Black Legion make use of some sorcerors to navigate their ships, however we do not know that they don't use any Navigators, or whether Navigators are better or worse. I get that you don't like Huron, but don't make stuff up to help back your argument.

In the Victories of the Space Marines BL book, there is a short story about a Renegade Chapter. They killed their Navigator and so the Chapter Librarian was guiding them through the warp. He was straining until he entered a daemon pact and shortly there after the Daemon led the Librarian through the warp to safe passage.

 

With Sorcerors who have multiple daemon pacts, it'd be very easy to guide their ships through the warp, I'd imagine.

 

And with a smirk on his lips, the Sorceror, Sualc Atnas uttered the commands to his daemonic minions as he propelled the mighty ship through the Warp. "Onward Rehsad, Recnad, and Recnarp, Onward Nexiv, Temoc, and Dipuc, Show them how it's done Rennod, Neztilb and Hpoldur." and as they ploughed their way onwards, Atnas chuckled, as he thought of all the pain and misery he was about to bring to all.

[Malatox]

Typhon guided the Death Guard through the warp... Probably the first instance of a "sorceror" guiding a ship.

 

Malatox

[randian]

Word Bearers have deactivated all their Gellar Fields and actively invite Daemons to their ships. And they don't use Navigators as they have Dark Apsotles / First Acolytes / other Sorcerers / let the Gods decide where they end up.

How do the WBs avoid getting slaughtered by direct exposure to the warp? Faith isn't armor against warp energy.

[randian]

Typhon guided the Death Guard through the warp

That was arguably a ruse to prevent his shipmates from killing him (after he killed all their Navigators)

before he completed his plan to strand them in the warp. I don't recall him being able to get them anywhere.

[Bloodcrusade]

you could say am biased , but If I am wrong and the new fluff for huron is good and makes sense , there where are all the corsair players . why when we talk about generic chaos list we dont say corsair[different marines under huron] , but BL .

---

Where is the "today huron killed" . its not there people didnt like the new fluff , because it was stupid....

First of all, yes Jeske, you are extremely biased in every one of your posts I have seen. Not trying to ruffle too many feathers but you are EXTREMELY biased with a "This is the only right way of doing things ever omg omg omg" attitude. That's just how your posts come across and I haven't seen anything you've posted to provide otherwise.

 

Second, his fluff not only makes sense, but is probably one of the best backgrounds that GW has come out with for a character since the last edition. It's very well written and expanded upon, so much so that they have 2 Forge World books you can order to play part of the Badab War, that's pretty good background if you ask me if it warrants Forge World to back it up...twice.

 

The reason generic Chaos is the Black Legion is because they, and Abaddon, are still GW's current Chaos puppets, where every other Legion is dedicated to something(DeathGuard=Nurgle, NightLords=Ambush, WordBearers=Worship/Daemons), they can use the Black Legion to fulfill whatever need they have; such as raid out of the Eye, angry attempts to do over the Imperium, etc. etc. The Red Corsairs are the alternative to using the Chaos version of the GW's Ultrapuppets, much like using a Pedro Cantor army to the Ultras. Still the same army list, but instead of GW's huge point sink in terminator armour, you can use a guy with a cool gun, cool background fluff, and an angry powerfist for your army's background.

You're basically asking why when we talk about the Vanilla Marine codex, why we say Ultramarine instead of Crimson Fists when we're not bringing either Calgar or Pedro and it's just a generic army list.

---

Challenge Accepted

 

Going to go get a game or two in and start that bad boy up.

[Eetion]

This thread is so making me want to start a Red Corsairs army, and ditch my own WIP warband...

 

Word Bearers are zealots, but they can be reasoned with, as with most of the Cult troops. There can be negotiations, and they are not so one dimesional as to ignore or attack anyhting on sight. As Bloodcrusade says The Black legion have long since been the poster boys and beforer that we had the Legion rules, and to be fair they were excellent and well liked. the Red Corsairs are a recent development but the love for the Legion warbands has already been nurtured in the community, so their is undoubtedly resistance.

 

 

As for the Navigators. I dont think theres any debate that Sorcerors can navigate ships... but theres nothing im aware of as to the skill or technique, just that they can. Plus Sorcerors are not the most common of figures. If you dont have one, or even worse they get killed on Campaign.... your essentially stuck at a crawl with short jumps, or completely reliant upon other warbands... you may have to join under the leadership of another just to get around. Having a Navigator gives you that little extra security, someone whos not going to leave the ship to pursue their own ends.

 

In the Victories of the Space Marines BL book, there is a short story about a Renegade Chapter. They killed their Navigator and so the Chapter Librarian was guiding them through the warp. He was straining until he entered a daemon pact and shortly there after the Daemon led the Librarian through the warp to safe passage.

 

Thats not to say that Navigators arnt used. It depends on the Navigator in question... will they turn with them? If not then you cant really leave them alive... "Just driop us off at the Maelstrom, get in the escape pod when we get there and were all good.... oh and you promise not to fly us to the nearest naval base?"

It comes down to if the Navigator has turned or remains loyal?

[Hellios]

I'll add to this that some DG ships have been mentioned not using navigators.

 

Some do but some apparently don't... As Jeske mentions it probably has something to do with having sorcerers but it also probably helps if you are a member of a devout group of marines... The exalted's warband don't seem to be the most dedicated lot on the whole...

 

And yet Ruven, an entirely undevoted Sorceror, is fully capable of navigating a ship.

 

 

and yet I never said that such a sorcerer could not... Just that being dedicated helps... and I mean cult and undivided. Pacts with daemons are all good and well but they can be tricksy! It is better if the god has your back to keep the daemons in line... Don't displease your patron however...

 

Bloodcrusade Jeske isn't knocking the Badab war fluff... I also think it is good and it is the original fluff for Huron and all. What Jeske objects to is where Huron stopped being the leader of perhaps the largest astartes renegade pirate (not including Legion members) warband and became someone who was matching the most powerful legions in strength and is tolerated by one of the strongest legions who lives next to him.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes he is biased Bloodcrusade. Especially in the army list forums. BUT, he's right in those forums.

 

What he is objecting to is what Hellios stated above and I agree with him.

 

How do the WBs avoid getting slaughtered by direct exposure to the warp? Faith isn't armor against warp energy.

 

It is when you're the chosen legion of the four powers.....

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Word Bearers have deactivated all their Gellar Fields and actively invite Daemons to their ships. And they don't use Navigators as they have Dark Apsotles / First Acolytes / other Sorcerers / let the Gods decide where they end up.

How do the WBs avoid getting slaughtered by direct exposure to the warp? Faith isn't armor against warp energy.

It is, kinda sorta. It's not so much that they're protected, so much as they don't need to be protected, the Dark Gods aren't trying to eat their souls.

[Bloodcrusade]

Bloodcrusade Jeske isn't knocking the Badab war fluff... I also think it is good and it is the original fluff for Huron and all. What Jeske objects to is where Huron stopped being the leader of perhaps the largest astartes renegade pirate (not including Legion members) warband and became someone who was matching the most powerful legions in strength and is tolerated by one of the strongest legions who lives next to him.

And that's the problem, you're drawing a difference between being a large(In this case largest) non-Legion warband and the second largest warband of Chaos Marines, when really they are they exact same thing in this scenario. Huron is a very persuading character with natural leadership that men want to follow and the ambition and drive to organize and lead them.

 

Considering the fact that the Legions are a breath of what they once were before the Heresy, it's not that hard at all to believe that Huron has been pulling together enough warbands to the point that only the Black Legion remains stronger than the Red Corsairs' current roster of Marines.

 

To put this into perspective of how tunneled this view is, consider the Black Templars. At over 6k Marines we're the largest Space Marine chapter and if ever gathered together there wouldn't be a force strong enough currently to stop the ensuing Crusade. As it is, our Chapter is spread out amongst dozens of systems and hundreds of planets protecting, cleansing, and lending aid to those that call.

More than likely the Red Corsairs warband is quite similarly spread thin, many different parts striking out of the Maelstrom as well as actively doing raids on the nearby system(s). This means that yes, the Red Corsairs are vast is their numbers and strength to call upon, however there is never more than a few hundred at most to immediately call upon in one area.

 

It would also give a reasonable answer to why the Word Bearers have never felt the need to attempt to purge their existence; there has never been a large enough gathering for them to know the Red Corsairs true numbers and strength and so have yet to be discovered as such a large threat. Add that onto the fact that the Word Bearers are hardly being ran on a vast scale and are barely organized still as a whole Legion and it's not that difficult to see why they haven't moved against them.

 

And Tanith, telling everyone to drop their list and do: Princes, Plague Marines, Oblits Isn't exactly what I'd call being right, it's highly unimaginative and argueably wrong when the person is trying to make a fluffy list that can still do well or trying to do something unconventional and all the help is just the same cookie-cutter :P everyone has seen over and over.

[Hellios]

Bloodcrusade Jeske isn't knocking the Badab war fluff... I also think it is good and it is the original fluff for Huron and all. What Jeske objects to is where Huron stopped being the leader of perhaps the largest astartes renegade pirate (not including Legion members) warband and became someone who was matching the most powerful legions in strength and is tolerated by one of the strongest legions who lives next to him.

And that's the problem, you're drawing a difference between being a large(In this case largest) non-Legion warband and the second largest warband of Chaos Marines, when really they are they exact same thing in this scenario. Huron is a very persuading character with natural leadership that men want to follow and the ambition and drive to organize and lead them.

 

Considering the fact that the Legions are a breath of what they once were before the Heresy, it's not that hard at all to believe that Huron has been pulling together enough warbands to the point that only the Black Legion remains stronger than the Red Corsairs' current roster of Marines.

 

 

To put this in perspective a Chaos legion is far larger than the Black Templars... in the 38th Millennium Angron lead a force of 50,000 Khorne Berzerkers (according to lexicanum, I remember this kind of thing but don't have the time to find the original quote...)... Now they might not all be World Eaters but it is a good bet that the Majority are... and the World Eaters are supposed to be a smaller legion along with the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons (Who are significantly smaller than the rest!)

 

The Black legion was also very small by legion standards but rebuilt itself under Big A! The Iron Warriors have also apparently been rebuilding themselves... So the legions might be closer to 100,000. The legions are not a shadow of themselves in terms of numbers... Well maybe some but not all!

 

That is why people don't like this.

 

The legions are nothing like a ragtag post heresy renegade chapter... Even if they operate in similar ragtag forces.

[Eetion]

Bloodcrusade Jeske isn't knocking the Badab war fluff... I also think it is good and it is the original fluff for Huron and all. What Jeske objects to is where Huron stopped being the leader of perhaps the largest astartes renegade pirate (not including Legion members) warband and became someone who was matching the most powerful legions in strength and is tolerated by one of the strongest legions who lives next to him.

And that's the problem, you're drawing a difference between being a large(In this case largest) non-Legion warband and the second largest warband of Chaos Marines, when really they are they exact same thing in this scenario. Huron is a very persuading character with natural leadership that men want to follow and the ambition and drive to organize and lead them.

 

Considering the fact that the Legions are a breath of what they once were before the Heresy, it's not that hard at all to believe that Huron has been pulling together enough warbands to the point that only the Black Legion remains stronger than the Red Corsairs' current roster of Marines.

 

 

 

To put this in perspective a Chaos legion is far larger than the Black Templars... in the 38th Millennium Angron lead a force of 50,000 Khorne Berzerkers (according to lexicanum, I remember this kind of thing but don't have the time to find the original quote...)... Now they might not all be World Eaters but it is a good bet that the Majority are... and the World Eaters are supposed to be a smaller legion along with the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons (Who are significantly smaller than the rest!)

 

The Black legion was also very small by legion standards but rebuilt itself under Big A! The Iron Warriors have also apparently been rebuilding themselves... So the legions might be closer to 100,000. The legions are not a shadow of themselves in terms of numbers... Well maybe some but not all!

 

That is why people don't like this.

 

The legions are nothing like a ragtag post heresy renegade chapter... Even if they operate in similar ragtag forces.

 

 

Berzerker does not equal world eater. They are not all nessacerily from the same Legion and would include many renegades as well and could quite possibly be nearly every Berzerker answering a Daemon Primarchs call.

 

The sons of horus began life by worship different gods flip flopping between thefour and with each changfe leaving their hosts as husks almost to the point of extinction and spent a considerable period rebuilding after.

The world eaters and Emperors Children were shattered at Skalathrax. The Thousand Sons have always been small.

And the time in the Eye is spent in constant war with each other.

 

They have all spent some time rebuilding their forces where they can as they are in a constant war of attrition with each other. So you have many groups rebuilding and trying to win over their rivals. With the Black Legion being top dog.

 

Huron does not have this problem. Any renegades are his instead of fought over. New marines are still capable of being recreated. He is not in a constant state of war. He seems to have simply integrate willing warbands or kill their leader and take them if needed. Is it really that surprising that he has managed to rebuild somewhat quickly without the pressure and competition of the EoT? The maelstrom seems to be relatively stable compared to the eye.

[Hellios]

Bloodcrusade Jeske isn't knocking the Badab war fluff... I also think it is good and it is the original fluff for Huron and all. What Jeske objects to is where Huron stopped being the leader of perhaps the largest astartes renegade pirate (not including Legion members) warband and became someone who was matching the most powerful legions in strength and is tolerated by one of the strongest legions who lives next to him.

And that's the problem, you're drawing a difference between being a large(In this case largest) non-Legion warband and the second largest warband of Chaos Marines, when really they are they exact same thing in this scenario. Huron is a very persuading character with natural leadership that men want to follow and the ambition and drive to organize and lead them.

 

Considering the fact that the Legions are a breath of what they once were before the Heresy, it's not that hard at all to believe that Huron has been pulling together enough warbands to the point that only the Black Legion remains stronger than the Red Corsairs' current roster of Marines.

 

 

 

To put this in perspective a Chaos legion is far larger than the Black Templars... in the 38th Millennium Angron lead a force of 50,000 Khorne Berzerkers (according to lexicanum, I remember this kind of thing but don't have the time to find the original quote...)... Now they might not all be World Eaters but it is a good bet that the Majority are... and the World Eaters are supposed to be a smaller legion along with the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons (Who are significantly smaller than the rest!)

 

The Black legion was also very small by legion standards but rebuilt itself under Big A! The Iron Warriors have also apparently been rebuilding themselves... So the legions might be closer to 100,000. The legions are not a shadow of themselves in terms of numbers... Well maybe some but not all!

 

That is why people don't like this.

 

The legions are nothing like a ragtag post heresy renegade chapter... Even if they operate in similar ragtag forces.

 

 

Berzerker does not equal world eater. They are not all nessacerily from the same Legion and would include many renegades as well and could quite possibly be nearly every Berzerker answering a Daemon Primarchs call.

 

 

Huron does not have this problem. Any renegades are his instead of fought over. New marines are still capable of being recreated. He is not in a constant state of war. He seems to have simply integrate willing warbands or kill their leader and take them if needed. Is it really that surprising that he has managed to rebuild somewhat quickly without the pressure and competition of the EoT? The maelstrom seems to be relatively stable compared to the eye.

 

I said that they might tot all be World Eaters... Jeez... and this depends on how you define World Eaters it isn't unknown for cult followers to change allegiance to the legion dedicated to their god.

 

Huron still fights wars however... and he has had some losses and some of the losses have had a serious effect on the forces he has committed. He hasn't had as long to build up strength as other legions... and even with the attrition you talk about we know that some of the legions are in the tens of thousands at the very least and if you have been fighting a war of high attrition for a long time you have either lost or you have a way to recruit quickly. And Huron did and probably still hasn't got the resources and connections that some of the old legion commanders have.

 

I don't have a problem with him having 100,000 followers with a few thousand of them being Marines! I have a problem with some random guy in a few years, with less resources and support going "hey guys I have more marines than you LOLLOLROFLSTOMP!" He couldn't do it while he was still using Imperial resources and if it is so easy why hasn't Big A. made the BL a million strong... a force that could bring all the other legions to heel and then crush the Imperium.

[Eetion]

Can you tell me the source that says he has that many marines. The reference everyone refers to only says his power rivals that of the legions. That can include renegade guard, mutant hordes, pirates and corsairs as well as navy renegades as well as the renegade marines as well as those original legionarries that have turned.

Now the term rival is important as well as just because they are rivals does not mean that they are equal in regards to 'power'. It simply means that the Corsairs can approach it in some regard. I fully expect a Legion to stomp them in a straight up fight.

 

Now Abaddon also has the issue of the Black Legion being drasticly broken initially and rebuilt. Now I understand the most common refernece to Abaddons power is something along the lines that he exceeds the power of a Legion (I also seem to remember one saying he wields more power than horus did... Which doesn't sound right if I'm remembering right because that's more ridiculous than hurons background, after everything that's happened in the eye and the heresy). He has succesfully rebuilt the Legion but also by his reference I would say that it also includes his associated navy, army and associated warbands and legion remnants following his lead.

 

In short I would be suprised if the rewd corsairs numbered more than 20 k marines with Black legion numbering around the 40k mark.

 

As for the attrition huron has had substantially less than abaddons forces with 13 crusades and the almost constant state of war in the eye compared to hurons mainly raiding preference.

[Hellios]

Can you tell me the source that says he has that many marines. The reference everyone refers to only says his power rivals that of the legions. That can include renegade guard, mutant hordes, pirates and corsairs as well as navy renegades as well as the renegade marines as well as those original legionarries that have turned.

Now the term rival is important as well as just because they are rivals does not mean that they are equal in regards to 'power'. It simply means that the Corsairs can approach it in some regard. I fully expect a Legion to stomp them in a straight up fight.

 

Now Abaddon also has the issue of the Black Legion being drasticly broken initially and rebuilt. Now I understand the most common refernece to Abaddons power is something along the lines that he exceeds the power of a Legion (I also seem to remember one saying he wields more power than horus did... Which doesn't sound right if I'm remembering right because that's more ridiculous than hurons background, after everything that's happened in the eye and the heresy). He has succesfully rebuilt the Legion but also by his reference I would say that it also includes his associated navy, army and associated warbands and legion remnants following his lead.

 

In short I would be suprised if the rewd corsairs numbered more than 20 k marines with Black legion numbering around the 40k mark.

 

As for the attrition huron has had substantially less than abaddons forces with 13 crusades and the almost constant state of war in the eye compared to hurons mainly raiding preference.

 

Do you know that Britain was at war with Belgium at one point for over 200 years? In that time no one died... North Korea and South Korea are at war currently but the casualties on both sides are very low. Being at constant war isn't a huge thing if it is a warband vs warband thing... Big A. seems to have deals with most of the big players... Which means a lot of the constant warfare that goes on is between smaller warbands which may or may not belong to a larger command structure but who are operating for to their own ends. Imagine the Holy Roman Empire if you will, not an entirely accurate analogy but it will do. The emperor ruled over the various dukes, kings, princes and bishops... However from time to time various dukes and so on would fight with each other... Sometimes the Emperor would allow this and sometimes he wouldn't... However the Emperors personal power was important because if the Emperors own power (before gaining additional resources from member states of the HRE) was fairly minor he had no real power at all. So Big A needs a large army to be able to get others on side.

 

See Eetion we may almost agree. I'm willing to admit that Huron's forces might match the legions in terms of size and this is how I interpreted the fluff. There might be more elsewhere I haven't read. I however cannot conceive that he matches the legions in quality and strength. However when I say legions I'm talking about marines and not the vast hordes of mutants, cultists and traitors that they field.

 

Also why is Huron being as powerful as the Black Legion mad while Big A. having a force more powerful than Horus' mad? Horus' never had the planet killer... Big A hasn't been sitting on his ass... He has been using the last 10,000 years (or however much 'real' time he has had...) to restructure the black legion and rebuild it's strength! I don't know if the Big E had an idea for a standard legion size.... Most seemed to be around 100K strong although the UMs were unusually large. Big A has no reason to limit his strength and all the reasons you could need to build a large force.

 

If the legions are as small as you suggest the Astartes Praeses with assorted other marine chapters that flock to combat the black crusades + Imperial guard, Imperial Navy and Mechanicus support shouldn't have huge problems stopping Black Crusades... Oh it it isn't easy but so far Big A has been fairly successful. I'm suggesting that the Chaos Legions are still a very real threat! The problem is Big A. is only just starting to get them organised.

[Brother Ambroz]

And Tanith, telling everyone to drop their list and do: Princes, Plague Marines, Oblits Isn't exactly what I'd call being right, it's highly unimaginative and argueably wrong when the person is trying to make a fluffy list that can still do well or trying to do something unconventional and all the help is just the same cookie-cutter everyone has seen over and over.

 

Try to understand this is a forum and not everyone has the same grasp of English and culture that English speakers do. He simply offers the most competitive advice and if you don't want to listen just ignore him. There's really no such thing anymore as a fluffy list that can still do well.

 

I'm with Hellios. Eetion is starting to persuade but in terms of quality and strength the WB and BL should have Huron's forces outmatched by far.

 

As for Abby being more powerful now than Horus, well some of it does make sense. He's had more time to acquire power and gifts from the gods. He also has the daemonsword-artifact Drachnyen (sp?). All he's missing is the genetic power of a Primarch vs a marine but that could possibly be made up for with daemonic gifts.

[Amalricus]

On a historical note, about which war are you talking when you say:

 

Do you know that Britain was at war with Belgium at one point for over 200 years?

 

Because i'm a belgian historian, and i can't remember any large scale war with Britain ( either Great-Britain, or the French Britain ). But then of course, i could be wrong

 

 

Concerning Huron, his model isn't that great, i don't know his fluff extensively, but i'm not a huge fan. GW probably felt they could add a renegade character. Too bad they didn't add a renegade guard list, that would have been nice.

[Tchort]

GW probably felt they could add a renegade character. Too bad they didn't add a renegade guard list, that would have been nice.

 

But they have. Siege of Vraks contains 3 such lists, in fact.

[randian]

Word Bearers have deactivated all their Gellar Fields and actively invite Daemons to their ships. And they don't use Navigators as they have Dark Apsotles / First Acolytes / other Sorcerers / let the Gods decide where they end up.

How do the WBs avoid getting slaughtered by direct exposure to the warp? Faith isn't armor against warp energy.

It is, kinda sorta. It's not so much that they're protected, so much as they don't need to be protected, the Dark Gods aren't trying to eat their souls.

It's my understanding that when your Gellar field goes down the raw warp energy present everywhere in the warp will kill you if the daemons don't. Even Word Bearers will die from that. So what's keeping that out, daemons? Or is that the job of the WB's sorcerers?

[Brother Ambroz]

If raw warp energy would kill you then how do so many traitors survive in the Eye? Is it not made up of the same stuff?

[randian]

If raw warp energy would kill you then how do so many traitors survive in the Eye? Is it not made up of the same stuff?

The Eye is an area of warp/realspace overlap. The shallow eye can support realspace creatures without too much damage. That is not to say no damage, the geneseed of the various Traitor Legions is said to be irreversibly corrupted, and their generations of human slaves probably aren't doing too well either. The occasional warp storm notwithstanding, just being there isn't immediately dangerous. Over the long term, physical and spiritual corruption are always threats.

 

The deeper you go the more the environment is inimical to realspace creatures, including causing immediate mutation and/or death. Think of it as the difference between swimming on the surface of an ocean and swimming 100' below the surface without safety equipment.