The Tyrant.

[Eetion]

See Eetion we may almost agree. I'm willing to admit that Huron's forces might match the legions in terms of size and this is how I interpreted the fluff. There might be more elsewhere I haven't read. I however cannot conceive that he matches the legions in quality and strength. However when I say legions I'm talking about marines and not the vast hordes of mutants, cultists and traitors that they field.

No we agree entirely.... Iv not once said Huron could take a Legion down, but his forces can at least rival them, and I am also refering to Huron and assorted armies/mutants/navy v 1 Legion without assistance. Im just trying to point out that its not such a blown out over the top description of the Red Corsairs.

 

If the legions are as small as you suggest the Astartes Praeses with assorted other marine chapters that flock to combat the black crusades + Imperial guard, Imperial Navy and Mechanicus support shouldn't have huge problems stopping Black Crusades... Oh it it isn't easy but so far Big A has been fairly successful. I'm suggesting that the Chaos Legions are still a very real threat! The problem is Big A. is only just starting to get them organised.

 

As for Abby being more powerful now than Horus, well some of it does make sense. He's had more time to acquire power and gifts from the gods. He also has the daemonsword-artifact Drachnyen (sp?). All he's missing is the genetic power of a Primarch vs a marine but that could possibly be made up for with daemonic gifts.

 

Why Iv not said the Legions are small... and i can fully appreciate that the defences would be daunting around the EoT, and quite rightly so.... But its the mutants, hordes and traitors that make the bulk of the Black Crusades... it is these with the Legions that push the boundries of the Imperium.

But allow me to explain my reasoning for my interpretation in Legion sizes and why I find it hard to believe that Abaddon has anywhere near Horus's power.

 

Horus at the height of his power commanded 9 legions... well lets ignore the Thousand Sons since the rubric and battle for prospero left them as essentially non combatants... so 8 Legions at lets say 85'000 each, some Legions were bigger like the WB and others smaller so lets take the happy average. So thats 680'000.

 

So now we have the loyalists that were purged from the Legions... reasonable guess... a 1/3 of them exterminated.. Sp around 450'000 to 460'000 traitor Astartes across 8 Legions. Now for a start I dont believe Abaddon has access to anywhere near that much... But let us continue with some casualty estimates...

 

So we have Istvaan Landings, Heresy Combat, Siege of Terra, Arrival and fight for resources in the eye.... along with Skalathrax and the Black Legion decimating themselves with God swapping, along with 13 Black crusades....

So what would be a reasonable number of casualties off the original Legionaries? A guesstimate I know, but lets say 40% is quite reasonable for the most intense war the galaxy has seen and 10'000 years of infighting and Black crusades. So thats 270'000 survivors over 8 Legions. Thats 33'750 per Legion. Now admittedly some Legions are more intact than others, and fails to take into account of recruitment and traitors joining the cause...

 

Now the Black Legion had a significant casualty rate due to their god swapping, but equally over the years warriors from other Legions have joined the Black Legion, and given the success of this they recovered pretty well. So 40-50'000 is a pretty reasonable guesstimate for the Black Legion id say.

 

As for recruitment it is said that at as many as 50 chapters have fallen to chaos in the chaos dex plus we then have individual squads etc across the galaxy, so its a bit hard to guess where they end up... maelstrom, eye, dead and in what numbers? so admittedly have been left out of the above.

 

Now I know its all guess work, but 50'000 for Black Legion is reasonable and average of 30'000 per other legion is reasonable, and as I said I guess Huron in at 20'000 or so....

But heres the trick

So Abaddon has under his direct command 50'000 and then when going to war calls in favors/threatens/nedotiates many other warbands to tag along.... so can boost the forces in his Black Crusades when they go to war... But they are not his... they fight for him but not all of them... he has to negotiate the truces and pacts etc that brings his army together... Horus had that already as warmaster...

 

So Id make ythe numbers at

Horus at 450'000plus Imperial Army deserters

Abaddon and the Black Legion at 40-50'000 +LatD

The otehr legions a little less than that at around 30'000 spread across many smaller warbands of a few dozen to a few thousand

and Huron at 20'000 ish (guess) +LatD

 

So that would easily bring Huron as the 2nd largest commander and when combined with his armies etc is not too far off Legion sized and competative...a full strength legion would trounce him, but a smaller fragmented one as seen in 41st millenium united against him would be a hard fight and certainly a rival for each others power.

 

This is how Iv always interpreted the state of numbers in the 40k universe.. Im the first to admit its all guess work and full of flaws, but is only intended as a rough guideline...and even 1 Legion is still a very real threat to teh Imperial forces round the eye.

 

 

... I cant believe I spent this long typing that out... What a waste of time after putting the little one to bed. ;)

 

 

If raw warp energy would kill you then how do so many traitors survive in the Eye? Is it not made up of the same stuff?

 

There is a description of the effect of pure warp energy on a Chaos Marine company in Blood Reaver...

Captain Calebs Red Corsairs were caught outside on the hull of a vessel as it translated into the warp and traveled through warp space.... needless to say... it was messy.

 

 

Do you know that Britain was at war with Belgium at one point for over 200 years? In that time no one died... North Korea and South Korea are at war currently but the casualties on both sides are very low. Being at constant war isn't a huge thing if it is a warband vs warband thing...

 

Is that how you truly see life in the eye, involving slave raids, war as gods attempt to gain dominance over each other and resources are hotly contested?

 

 

I know this has been a rambling post... but Hurons been in for a bit of stick with this and I do think its a bit of unreasonable criticism.

[Hellios]

On a historical note, about which war are you talking when you say:

 

Do you know that Britain was at war with Belgium at one point for over 200 years?

 

Because i'm a belgian historian, and i can't remember any large scale war with Britain ( either Great-Britain, or the French Britain ). But then of course, i could be wrong ;)

 

 

Concerning Huron, his model isn't that great, i don't know his fluff extensively, but i'm not a huge fan. GW probably felt they could add a renegade character. Too bad they didn't add a renegade guard list, that would have been nice.

 

Just checked my stuff. My bad XD I meant the Netherlands. I knew it wasn't one of the bigger European companies and someone GB had fairly good relations with. Sorry for the mistake. I was referring to the 335 years war.

[TheDarkApostle]

Interesting point of note, official texts:

 

"So it will occur that the Eye torn in the Sky will weep blood, and the legions that dwell there in a state of constant warfare will spill out, united under a single leader, and once again assail the bedrock of humankind. There will be an unholy union between each and every faction and region of the infernal Eye, and untold millions of heretics and thousands of craft will seek to burst through the stalwart defenses placed there in readiness for the event."

 

"But the Abandoned One [Abbadon] will not falter yet, indeed, his allies and sponsors will rally around him in ever greater numbers and his second assault will be every bit as strong and direct as the first."

 

Now we know that there is 300 years in real-space between Abbadons first and second Black Crusades, but the text above tells us that in those 300 years of real-space, Abbadon is still able to replenish not just himself but everyone else as well and amass at least as many soldiers as during his first Black Crusade. Even though his forces got pretty beaten up during his first.

 

TDA

[Eetion]

It doesnt actually say that he replenished them though. It could be that he united even more allies to his side with his growing reputation instead of repairing those of the 1st assault.

[Hellios]

It doesnt actually say that he replenished them though. It could be that he united even more allies to his side with his growing reputation instead of repairing those of the 1st assault.

 

The problem is being weaker than he was before (having taken losses) and having less prestige than before... having taken a beating... In most real scenarios being a warmonger who then gets beaten and then can't be arsed or lacks the capabilities to rebuild or reform yourself is a great way of getting no allies... Just from a point of view of the fluff making some kind of sense in that 300 years Big A. either did some sorting out when it came to his legion nor performed enough sexual favors to make Slaanesh blush.

[TheDarkApostle]

It doesnt actually say that he replenished them though. It could be that he united even more allies to his side with his growing reputation instead of repairing those of the 1st assault.

The first quote is the first Black Crusade, which quite explicitly states that he does indeed bring EVERYONE the first time around.

 

Everyone by extension means that there's no one else left that he didn't bring. :D

 

TDA

[the emperor is scottish]

Nice didn't expect such a strong response. But please guys let keep it as a friendly discussion instead of bickering (what the craps the difference I don't know) I've already had a topic shut down on the blood angel page because people couldn't control their emotions. Let's show the loyalists that the chaos boys and girls can be that wee bit more civilised.

 

I can't help but feel compairing Huron to abbadon is like compairing a bond villain to hitler. I really do love Huron but to place him in contention with the Warmaster is dodgy on games workshops part. I have no problem with him having a sizeable force gathered be it his navy, marines, mutants or renegade guard. But to say he rivals abbadon in any of these respects is another one of Gws half baked ideas at epic ness.

 

If they were talking about matching a legion in marine numbers then I can't see how it's possible is such a 'short' period of time. How long did it take the legions to build up to strength when they first started out in the great crusade? They had to be attached to other forces for long long periods of time until their numbers were great enough to go their own way and that was when the imperium was at a golden age! Resources pumped out at an incredible rate that now would in the 40k univers be considered scarce. Not to mention what must have been acces to a massive amount of gene seed stock.

 

Again I have to admit I do like Huron. He's not some bloody minded half spawn lord who just butchers his way across the galaxy or some chaos infused powerhouse. Hes a thinking mans chaos Lord. A plotter, a schemer and above all else a politic. He also seems to infuse a sort of worship within his followers. In any fluff I've read on him his followers seem to revere him the same way primarchs were.

[Eetion]

Oh absolutely Huron can't hold a candle to Abaddon given the forces Abaddon can mobolise. His own legion is probably bigger plus his assorted allies and lost and the damned. But Huron does command a sizable force and can probably make the top 5 or so in terms of pure number of troops under his command, if not number 2.

[Tchort]

But to say he rivals abbadon in any of these respects is another one of Gws half baked ideas at epic ness.

 

Well, yeah, that's part and parcel of 40k's grandiose setting. It's not enough that Huron is a pirate lord who rules over a lawless area of hellspace and raids the Imperium, no he must approach the power of Abaddon and the Traitor Legions. I think part of the problem is the Red Corsairs are not particularly well developed, so they drop lines like that and you're left wondering "What?".

[Eetion]

Yeah they could definately use more expanding and especially the events after arriving in the eye and their reklationship with the WB and how they survived initial encounters.

[the jeske]

But to say he rivals abbadon in any of these respects is another one of Gws half baked ideas at epic ness.

 

Well, yeah, that's part and parcel of 40k's grandiose setting. It's not enough that Huron is a pirate lord who rules over a lawless area of hellspace and raids the Imperium, no he must approach the power of Abaddon and the Traitor Legions. I think part of the problem is the Red Corsairs are not particularly well developed, so they drop lines like that and you're left wondering "What?".

 

yeah there could be so much epic stuff for them . like first big ship won . Huron to make his followers fight harder and starts by activeting a self destruct mechanism on the ship their escaped from badab prior bording action. Mad pirate right there .

Or more about the cult factions he has under him . We know how he controls the zerkers , but how does he work with others .

Who are his captins , are all of them space marines ? etc etc .

[the emperor is scottish]

But to say he rivals abbadon in any of these respects is another one of Gws half baked ideas at epic ness.

 

Well, yeah, that's part and parcel of 40k's grandiose setting. It's not enough that Huron is a pirate lord who rules over a lawless area of hellspace and raids the Imperium, no he must approach the power of Abaddon and the Traitor Legions. I think part of the problem is the Red Corsairs are not particularly well developed, so they drop lines like that and you're left wondering "What?".

 

 

Maybe this is something we could remedy on? It wouldn't be official cannon but we've all seen what happens when the B&C put there support behind something (dornian heresy is a prime example). People could start their own red crosshairs force if only a little 500-1000 point force? Create characters either mentioned by games workshop or their own? Their own fluff ideas. Paintings, drawings, models, battle reports ,scenery the works. If enough people got behind the idea it could be a fun project.

[Eetion]

I'd definately be tempted to join this endeavour.

[the emperor is scottish]

Ah well that's makes the two of us buddy lol. If there is enPugh interest in this then it's defo something I'd be interested in getting off the ground after the Christmas period. Painting, modelling and fluff competition id be willing to found the prizes out of my own pocket.

[Chengar Qordath]

On a historical note, about which war are you talking when you say:

 

Do you know that Britain was at war with Belgium at one point for over 200 years?

 

Because i'm a belgian historian, and i can't remember any large scale war with Britain ( either Great-Britain, or the French Britain ). But then of course, i could be wrong :)

 

 

Concerning Huron, his model isn't that great, i don't know his fluff extensively, but i'm not a huge fan. GW probably felt they could add a renegade character. Too bad they didn't add a renegade guard list, that would have been nice.

 

Just checked my stuff. My bad XD I meant the Netherlands. I knew it wasn't one of the bigger European companies and someone GB had fairly good relations with. Sorry for the mistake. I was referring to the 335 years war.

Netherlands makes more sense; Belgium being in an over 200 year long war would be pretty impressive feat considering the fact that it that didn't exist as an independent state until 1830.

 

On topic, I agree that actually fleshing out how Huron went from beaten rogue chapter master to highly successful Pirate King would probably do a lot to make people more accepting of his current role in fluff. The biggest problem with his current position as the #2 Chaos guy is there's no real explanation for how he went from his defeat in the Badab War to his position as the new top dog in the Maelstrom. A "Rise of Huron" series has some real potential to be an awesome story.

[the emperor is scottish]

All that's really been explained in the fluff is while he was still being rebuilt he have the order for him men to find them a new home. The 200 odd marines easily over coming the first pirate settlements they came across in the maelstrom and in turn enslaving the survivors. Everything in between has huge holes init that like you pointed out needs fleshed out. Rise of the tyrant would be a very cool thing for games workshop to do.

[totgeboren]

Word Bearers have deactivated all their Gellar Fields and actively invite Daemons to their ships. And they don't use Navigators as they have Dark Apsotles / First Acolytes / other Sorcerers / let the Gods decide where they end up.

How do the WBs avoid getting slaughtered by direct exposure to the warp? Faith isn't armor against warp energy.

It is, kinda sorta. It's not so much that they're protected, so much as they don't need to be protected, the Dark Gods aren't trying to eat their souls.

It's my understanding that when your Gellar field goes down the raw warp energy present everywhere in the warp will kill you if the daemons don't. Even Word Bearers will die from that. So what's keeping that out, daemons? Or is that the job of the WB's sorcerers?

 

For you who says the WB do not use Geller fields, where have you read this? It is totally contrary to the things I have read, so it makes me quite curious. For example, in the book Execution Hour, an Imperial cruiser and a Nurgle Chaos cruiser battle inside the warp, which ends with a Geller field collapse on the chaos ship.

 

I mean, even if the WB themselves were safe, the raw physical material the ships are made of would be destroyed and warped beyond recognition. Also, a fairly standard chaos cruiser has a crew of many thousands, and you can bet that it's not Word Bearers what are sweating and hauling ordnance in the gunbays and such. At most a few hundred marines are present on a fully manned legion cruiser.

 

Without a Geller field, no WB vessel would be able to do anything, because of lack of crew, and an extreme surplus of chaos spawn and writhing walls.

 

Also, I personally don't like the idea that making a deal with some specific entity within the Warp would give you flawless immunity to pure warp energy. If that was the case, undivided chaos followers should be immune to things like Bolt of Change such warp-based attacks.

For me it's like, lets say I go to Saudi Arabia, and the King says "you are my personal guest in this realm". This would not give me immunity from sandstorms or drowning, from the environment. It would just protect me from being attacked by his subjects.

In the warp, there are many daemons, and many undivided ones. But even if I was to make a pact with every single one, I would still not be protected from the pure energy of the warp.

 

oh, and about navigation. The current Chaos codex says this "the daemonic nature of the Possessed is used by Sorcerers to aid navigation of the warp."

[Hellios]

not Word Bearers what are sweating and hauling ordnance in the gunbays and such. At most a few hundred marines are present on a fully manned legion cruiser.

 

Without a Geller field, no WB vessel would be able to do anything, because of lack of crew, and an extreme surplus of chaos spawn and writhing walls.

 

Also, I personally don't like the idea that making a deal with some specific entity within the Warp would give you flawless immunity to pure warp energy. If that was the case, undivided chaos followers should be immune to things like Bolt of Change such warp-based attacks.

For me it's like, lets say I go to Saudi Arabia, and the King says "you are my personal guest in this realm". This would not give me immunity from sandstorms or drowning, from the environment. It would just protect me from being attacked by his subjects.

In the warp, there are many daemons, and many undivided ones. But even if I was to make a pact with every single one, I would still not be protected from the pure energy of the warp.

 

oh, and about navigation. The current Chaos codex says this "the daemonic nature of the Possessed is used by Sorcerers to aid navigation of the warp."

 

You do realise the Saudi kings can control the weather right?

 

Anyway that aside some Chaos ships seem as if they might well be mutated and controlled by entities not of this realm... I couldn't say if they carry mortal crew or not... but having no crew isn't such an issue if you can bind warp entities into your ship....

[TheDarkApostle]

I think the no Gellar Fields needer for WBs was mentioned in the Battle for the Abyss.

 

Been ages since I actually read the book though.

 

And I seem to have misplaced it...

 

TDA

[Renegad3]

Maybe this is something we could remedy on? It wouldn't be official cannon but we've all seen what happens when the B&C put there support behind something (dornian heresy is a prime example). People could start their own red crosshairs force if only a little 500-1000 point force? Create characters either mentioned by games workshop or their own? Their own fluff ideas. Paintings, drawings, models, battle reports ,scenery the works. If enough people got behind the idea it could be a fun project.

 

I would be willing to help and create a character along with fluff.

 

 

Renegad3

[totgeboren]

Aaaah, Battle for the Abyss, no wonder I can't recall reading it. I have read that book, but to call it a disappointment would be an understatement to say the least.

 

I think I just ignored that part, since it contradicts other things I read before.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I think the no Gellar Fields needer for WBs was mentioned in the Battle for the Abyss.

 

Been ages since I actually read the book though.

 

And I seem to have misplaced it...

 

TDA

Also several times in the Dark Apostle series ;)

[totgeboren]

Also several times in the Dark Apostle series :confused:

 

Say whaaat? I'm rereading it currently, and I know they tend to have those harpy-like daemons creeping around, but I'm really going to keep my eyes open for any mention of the Geller fields being turned off. I can't remember anything like that though.

 

I mean, from BFG I got the impression that the Geller field creates a bubble of reality, where the laws of physics still apply. Turn that off and the ship would be subjected to an environment with no laws of physics. Someones subconscious dream of power might just graze an antenna of the ship, and convert the material into raw energy with the destruction of the ship as a consequence.

 

But sure enough, maybe warp energy isn't so harmful as it used to be. However, a ship plunging through it without a field would still be subjected to an environment with no laws of physics. It doesn't really sound like a good idea, considering the ship and everyone on board are constructed using the known laws of physics.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

In the beginning of the second book, I believe, around the time when Marduk is regarding the Crozius, it mentions it. I also believe it mentions it in the first book, when commenting on the Kathartes at the very beginning

[the jeske]

However, a ship plunging through it without a field would still be subjected to an environment with no laws of physic

the nid ships since the last two dex being able to do warp travel do not have any fields and nothing eats them in the warp , they dont get mutated .