The Tyrant.

[totgeboren]

However, a ship plunging through it without a field would still be subjected to an environment with no laws of physic

the nid ships since the last two dex being able to do warp travel do not have any fields and nothing eats them in the warp , they dont get mutated .

 

True that. However, the ships themselves are alive, and generally psychic. It could be that they have evolved an ability that amounts to a natural Geller field?

 

I am fully prepared to revise my position on how warp energy interacts with physical matter. Maybe the Geller field only keeps daemons at bay, and pure warp energy is no biggy to travel through? It just sounds strange to me, considering so much other info I have read on how warp energy is incredibly dangerous. I mean, we have things such as the bolt of change, which is pure warp energy, and also that GK psychic power Warp Rift, which uses warp energy. Also, catastrophic warp drive failure is not describes as allowing lots of daemons through that then tear ships and stuff to shreds. It's just pure warp energy which destroys everything it touches.

[TheDarkApostle]

More like the Nids massive psychic potential WITHOUT having any emotions at all is what generates the great Shadow in the Warp, which in turn is just fancy wording for the Nids overpowering everything else and "calming" the warp-space around them from a swirling maelstrom to a still lake. More or less.

 

And that's the reason they can travel unhindered.

 

TDA

[TheDarkApostle]

A catastrophic warp drive failure obviously is not the same as "just" passing through the warp.

 

Chaos Marines spend most of their time in warp-space or on Daemon Planets and as such would evolve a "natural resistance" or immunity to normal warp radiation unlike normal real-space citizens which is why it's lethal for them to travel unprotected but not for proper Chaos Marines. Especially not Chaos Marines who have received the protection and favor of ALL the Gods, both Major AND Minor.

 

Which is something the Word Bearers and the Word Bearers alone hold. For even is others might try it, the at most hold only the favor of one of the Gods, which naturally means that the others don't really have a need to play nice and keep them around and will let their warp minions and storms loose on them should they try.

 

TDA

[the jeske]

More like the Nids massive psychic potential WITHOUT having any emotions at all is what generates the great Shadow in the Warp, which in turn is just fancy wording for the Nids overpowering everything else and "calming" the warp-space around them from a swirling maelstrom to a still lake. More or less.

 

And that's the reason they can travel unhindered.

 

TDA

IW use looted nid space ships as transports . no galler fields on those too. and those also arent linked to the hive mind so no psychic protection from the swarm.

[TheDarkApostle]

They would still be psychic themselves and generate a "mini-shadow" and calm the area around them even if they weren't linked to the Hive Mind.

 

TDA

[the jeske]

not what the nid fluff tells us . to get the shadow in the warp you need a swarm . small splinert fleets arent even able to block astropatchic comunitcation . A single ship or two is less then that.

[TheDarkApostle]

I didn't say it would cause a total blackout. Or even be able to block out specifically directed messages.

 

But it would still "calm" the area around it naturally.'

 

Just like something generating a magnetic field would still be there, sure it might be weaker but it will still be there no matter what you do.

 

TDA

[Kol Saresk]

Well the thing about the modern Chaos fluff is that it is..... Chaotic, pardon the pun. Some of the Legions, like the Alpha Legion and the Death Guard are still working as a single cohesive whole even though they still operate in individual warbands. Then you have a Legion like the Word Bearers which is effectively split in half between the Council of Sicarius and Kor Phaeron from Ghalmek. But then you have the Black Legion which according to fluff and canon is mostly made up of Chaos Marines from other legions and the Renegade Chapters. And since there were only roughly 200 Astral Claws who survived the badab Wars it's possible they have just picked up the flotsam of the Maelstrom and welded it together into a massive force with the exception of the Word Bearers and the battle barge is only suspected to be a Word Bearers ship. But then you have the Violators(Daemon World) and the one-liner Thunder Barons(also Daemon World) who were said to be independent of any real major power in the Maelstrom. Either way, Huron is awesome. Long live the Tyrant!

[TheDarkApostle]

Except Kor Phaeron is the leader of the Dark Council so the only "split" there is among the Word Bearers is a geographical split and not a political/power split.

 

TDA

[Eetion]

Except Kor Phaeron is the leader of the Dark Council so the only "split" there is among the Word Bearers is a geographical split and not a political/power split.

 

TDA

 

Geographical split may ad well be political/power split as distances are vast. Just because he's the head doesn't mean he's typicallyactive on the council given the distance. Communication was probable but power is definately split. He may be the figurehead of the council but just how much influence does he wield being so distant from the eye?

[Kol Saresk]

First, Spoiler alert.

 

According to the canon, Kor Phaeron is the Keeper of the Faith and leads the Word Bearers in the Maelstrom from Ghalmek. And the Council of Sicarius is made up of Erebus and seven other Dark Apostles who lead the Word Bearers in the Eye of Terror from Sicarius. And the Legion is also split between the political followers of Kor Phaeron and Erebus even amongst the members of the Council who Kor Phaeron is not a member of because he is not a Dark Apostle. In Dark Creed, Erebus is named as the leader of the council and Kor Phaeron is just a rival who wants control of the whole legion, not just the Maelstrom forces. And in the Blood Angels novels we can also gather from Warmaster Garand's rank and position as well as the Captain from Daemon World that the Maelstrom Word Bearers are more militaristic.

[TheDarkApostle]

Interesting. That's not the impression I've been given.

 

TDA

[RapatoR]

Well AFAIK Nid ships, don´t travel through warp (they even dont have means to enter warp) they hibernate and travel trough realspace.

EDIT: In an extract from Deliverance Lost, a WB ship gets in the warp wihtout Geller field and it isn´t much benefical for the crew....

[Iron Lord]

Recently (5E codex) they've gotten a background piece that explains that they can FTL without the warp- and how- special ships called Narvhals that create a corridor of "compressed space" through which the rest of the fleet travels.

[the jeske]

they can travel through the warp since 4th ed dex. Which is in deed stupid , it came along with the whole planet assimilation thing droping from 30 days to 3 etc. But stupid or not its how the fluff looks like .

[Apostle Redbeard]

I quite like Huron. It might just be A D-B's portrayal of him in Blood Reaver, but he seems to be the only renegade who actually gets anything big done. After all, until the Legions get their rules back, somebody has to kill loyalists, right?

 

I actually quite like the idea of using him on the tabletop as well (in a themed list of course). Sure he only has three attacks base, but if you get Warptime off on the charge his average MEQ and TEQ kills using his fist is actually a bit above that of an undivided daemon weapon lord. With his power weapon he's killing slightly less than the lord. Then you add his heavy flamer, which if you get a good shot with the template will melt another MEQ or so, and he's actually doing pretty well for himself.

 

Now, the DW lord has the potential to kill more with daemon weapon rolls, of course, but he also has the ability to gib himself 1/6 of the time, which ends up a bit worse than Huron bumming Warptime. Ultimately, They're roughly even in average killing power (though Huron's flamer would bring him out on top against hordes), but the chaos lord has a much higher variance in his expected kills. That's good if you like leaving things to chance, but given how we already get screwed by randomness in this codex (dread, possessed...), Huron's low variance is pretty attractive.

 

My 2 kraks.

[the jeske]

Sure he only has three attacks base, but if you get Warptime off on the charge his average MEQ and TEQ kills using his fist is actually a bit above that of an undivided daemon weapon lord.

if he tries to use the fist he is dead after one round of hth against any unit with a HQ in it or if the unit has a fist class weapon or more then 2 power weapon class weapons per squad.

a dude doing d6+base A number of hits at str5 or str 4 with re-rolls will always kill more then one with 3A . Even a LC khorn lord kills more then huron .

[Apostle Redbeard]

Sure he only has three attacks base, but if you get Warptime off on the charge his average MEQ and TEQ kills using his fist is actually a bit above that of an undivided daemon weapon lord.

if he tries to use the fist he is dead after one round of hth against any unit with a HQ in it or if the unit has a fist class weapon or more then 2 power weapon class weapons per squad.

a dude doing d6+base A number of hits at str5 or str 4 with re-rolls will always kill more then one with 3A . Even a LC khorn lord kills more then huron .

 

Obviously you don't throw him at something that will smack the snot out of him then, do you? Also, actually do the maths before you just say one will always kill more than the other. Assuming charges and no shooting in both cases, Huron's expected MEQ and TEQ kills are higher than the undivided DW lord, and the variance on that value is a lot lower, meaning you'll very rarely get less than what you're expecting. He's not a curbstomper HQ, he goes in a unit to add very reliable punch to their assault and help with horde control. Also he'll put down MCs far more reliably than a LC lord if he gets near one. Obviously not an ideal situation in the first place, but reassuring to know.

[the jeske]

Obviously you don't throw him at something that will smack the snot out of him then, do you?

so against armies like SW/BA/GK/ORC/NIDS you never send him in to hth and against other armies this slow HQ[no wings] has to hunt stuff fistless stuff like MM attack bikes . and as he cant realy be runing around alone and on foot , or he will get sniped , he has to be run with a bodyguard[nothing different from a lord] . So now we are looking at 3 kill points ~400pts+ hunting support units . even a tactical is a problem because if there is a fist there [and why shouldnt there be?] he has a good chance to die .

 

 

 

Also he'll put down MCs far more reliably than a LC lord if he gets near one.

you mean like a hive tyrant or a chaos DP ? huron wont surive to use the fist and with a power weapon his str is too low to get enough wounds off. Not that a lord is perfect for it .

 

as the math goes an not a math person but d6 is what 3-4 on avarge +3 thats 7 . 3 wound on +3[doesnt matter if its because of re-rolling wounds or str5] . 2 wounds . huron does 3 at I1[which means he has to be alive , when a lord always gets hit attacks off unless he is charging in to a unit of I6 or i7 if he is slanny] one misses so ends up with 2. awesome if the game actualy auto rolled avarge rolls.

 

 

the teq part I find actualy funny , the idea that 3 A with i1 are better then possible 4-9 against units with +3 inv is a new thing to me.

 

 

 

help with horde control.

but you do know that if someone is wild about horde control he can buy a combi flamer for his asp champion what would be considering the whole army 30-40 pts[60 if you go wild and put them on rhinos too] and its still cheaper then huron , and it doesnt waste and HQ slot for something that you call "no ideal" [and I call suck].

[RapatoR]

they can travel through the warp since 4th ed dex. Which is in deed stupid , it came along with the whole planet assimilation thing droping from 30 days to 3 etc. But stupid or not its how the fluff looks like .

 

No they can´t (look at Iron Lord´s post).

[Apostle Redbeard]

as the math goes an not a math person but d6 is what 3-4 on avarge +3 thats 7 . 3 wound on +3[doesnt matter if its because of re-rolling wounds or str5] . 2 wounds . huron does 3 at I1[which means he has to be alive , when a lord always gets hit attacks off unless he is charging in to a unit of I6 or i7 if he is slanny] one misses so ends up with 2. awesome if the game actualy auto rolled avarge rolls.

 

 

the teq part I find actualy funny , the idea that 3 A with i1 are better then possible 4-9 against units with +3 inv is a new thing to me.

 

I'm not going to bother arguing over his viability in a competitive list, and we obviously have different opinions on what we'd do in a casual setting. I am a maths person though, so I'll just include the calculations on their combat abilities - hopefully it'll explain this 'new thing' to you. (Incidentally, S4 with a re-roll is better than S5 against T4. 75% vs 66.7% success rate.)

 

Assumptions: Charge; Huron activates Warp Time.

 

Huron: 4 attacks.

 

Probability of hit = 2/3+(1/3*2/3) = 8/9

Probability of wound (fist) = 5/6+(1/6*5/6) = 35/36

Probability of wound (PW) = 1/2+(1/2*1/2) = 3/4

Probability of unsaved wound (3++) = 1/3

Probability of unsaved wound (5++) = 2/3

 

So we have

 

Against MEQ with fist: 4*8/9*35/36 = 3.46 unsaved wounds

Against MEQ with PW: 4*8/9*3/4 = 2.67 unsaved wounds

Against 3++ with fist: 4*8/9*35/36*1/3 = 1.15 unsaved wounds

Against 3++ with PW: 4*8/9*3/4*1/3 = 0.89 unsaved wounds

Against 5++ with fist: 4*8/9*35/36*1/3 = 2.30 unsaved wounds

Against 5++ with PW: 4*8/9*3/4*2/3 = 1.78 unsaved wounds

 

Undivided DW lord: accounting for 1/6 chance of 0 attacks due to DW, we have an average 6.67 attacks.

 

Probability of hit = 2/3

Probability of wound = 2/3

Probability of unsaved wound (3++) = 1/3

Probability of unsaved wound (5++) = 2/3

 

So we have

 

Against MEQ: 6.67*2/3*2/3 = 2.96 unsaved wounds

Against 3++: 6.67*2/3*2/3*1/3 = 0.988 unsaved wounds

Against 5++: 6.67*2/3*2/3*2/3 = 1.98 unsaved wounds

 

So using the fist, Huron outperforms the DW lord by a greater margin than the DW lord outperforms Huron using the PW. This neglects shooting - with decent template placement Huron could easily cause enough additional wounds to match or exceed the DW lord even when using his PW, in the event where using the fist would get him killed. We also neglect the difference between Huron suffering PotW using Warptime, and the DW lord taking a wound from his DW. The lord fluffing his DW roll is much worse for the chaos player since not only does he lose his bonuses, he doesn't contribute to the combat at all, meaning more returned attacks and less likelihood of winning combat. Huron, though he relies on Warptime to get his reliable kills, can still do some damage if he fluffs warptime.

 

And, as I mentioned before, Huron's performance has a much lower variance, making him far more reliable in a typical round. Of course, the lord might roll a 6 for attacks, but he might also roll a 1. Both are equally likely. The DW is a gambler's weapon, just like a shooty chaos dread.

[the jeske]

Assumptions: Charge; Huron activates Warp Time.

which 50% of times gets stoped by staff/hood or gets creamed by runes. + the whole Charge part is a false one . He is on foot , he needs a rhino or a LR [but then he costs like 2 and a half lord which clearly do more dmg then him] . The lord has wings with a 18" charge range even when he is in a squad [you may hev even disembarked from a rhino turn 1] can charge stuff. Huron does not charge stuff . This is why I am against hard math in w40k . Huron has a lower dmg then every lord , not just because he has only 4 A and because psychic protection screws him over , he also does less damge because there is no good [as in effective and not overcosted] way to get him in to hth . And if he actualy gets in to hth , just like a lord he suffers from a low inv and/or no eternal warrior. This makes him worse then a lord . A lord [which by the way is also a bad HQs more a fluff thing] at least has speed , huron doesnt even have that.

 

Also as I said before If huron tries to use the fist and not the power weapon he risks a good chance of dieing before he gets to strike . He wont die against units with lower number of A [like a 5 man BA RAS if it doesnt have a power weapon+priest or a tactical] , or to be more precise he doesnt die till the fist swings and as no actual chaos unit is able to kill 10 meq on the charge on avarge , then it again means he dies . And a dude that trades 100+(+a bodyguard unit being glued to him , because he is not going to run alone . because alone he actualy can die from normal A from small units or tacticals] for 3 dead meq[which are worth around 50pts] is a Bad HQ.

 

 

 

The DW is a gambler's weapon, just like a shooty chaos dread.

they are only the same if you run a khorn one[which no one does] or a tzeench one and both shot and do hth in the same turn [which again doesnt happen on all turns]. Its not a question of gamble its a quastion of actual delivery of a hth unit in to hth so it can do his job , cost and list utility [like runing 2slanny lords to meta paladins].

 

 

 

Huron, though he relies on Warptime to get his reliable kills, can still do some damage if he fluffs warptime.

which would be all nice and true , if A space marines werent 50%+ of all armies played and if psychic protection for armies in the 5th wasnt spamed . And against those armies that dont have psychic protection[iG/DE/necron] the problem is not how many units huron kills with or without warp time , but how he even gets in to hth . A winged lord after a 12" move from rhino on turn2 can charge something[and have more chance to actualy hit stuff because of larger number of A] , huron does what ? stop them from charging ? necrons and IG dont charge , and DE if they do then it is dead .

[Excessus]

Are you telling us that a 1 in 6 or 2 in 6 chance of the lord/dread not doing as planned is NOT a gamble?

[Bloodcrusade]

jeske, Redbeard has you solidly on this one.

The reason hardmath is important for 40k is to know how your army will operate on an average. Obviously Huron in HtH is worth his points when compared to an unmarked Lord with Daemon Weapon because his kills are more stable and slightly higher. Plus he has the option of using what weapon he needs for the fight, and this isn't including his Heavy Flamer that is perfect for easing up a MEq squad before the charge much less against Horde units.

 

And your arguments against being able to put him into Close Combat? It's the exact same as every other army in Power Armour: Rhino, Razorback, Pod, Land Raider, or Walk. Since Chaos don't have Razors or Pods, you have three options to get him into the fight, and coincidentally the rhino has a reason it is the most popular transport for marines, even assaulty ones.

---

Used him in a game the other day against Newcrons, killed plenty of them in Assault and when Oberyon stood back up after he killed him, Huron killed him again with his Heavy Flamer. His rolls were all either at or above average and because of Warptime, he was making sure his Flamer and Power Weapon were downing Immortals when I needed him to.

Running with him was a unit of 7xPossessed w/IoK/Champ in a Rhino, and I was lucky enough to roll Power Weapons for the squad. 5 attacks each on the charge at Str5 destroyed any squad they ran into until the Lychguard who were able to hold on with 4++ saves. Only lost a single model in return because of their 5++ saves. Next turn wiped the Lychguard and my buddy was tabled.

 

With that aside, Redbeard would I be able to get you to do the math-hammer for me of a Nugle Lord w/Daemon Weapon? There's two ways I would do the math for it but since you already have that figured out I'd love to see what you're getting a turn for him. I'm thinking the Poison(And re-roll) will make him over the top for MC and MEq hunting in CC.

[Apostle Redbeard]

With that aside, Redbeard would I be able to get you to do the math-hammer for me of a Nugle Lord w/Daemon Weapon? There's two ways I would do the math for it but since you already have that figured out I'd love to see what you're getting a turn for him. I'm thinking the Poison(And re-roll) will make him over the top for MC and MEq hunting in CC.

 

Sure thing. I'm probably going to run the numbers on them all sometime to see if any of the DWs are actually worthwhile. Assuming no fancy modifiers (defensive grenades, paroxysm, etc), and neglecting any shooting on the way in:

 

Against MEQ:

 

Probability of hit = 2/3

Probability of wound given hit = 1/2 + 1/2*1/2 = 3/4

 

Against 3++:

 

Probability of hit = 2/3

Probability of wound given hit = 1/2 + 1/2*1/2 = 3/4

Probability of unsaved wound given wound = 1/3

 

Against 5++:

 

Probability of hit = 2/3

Probability of wound given hit = 1/2 + 1/2*1/2 = 3/4

Probability of unsaved wound given wound = 2/3

 

Against Hive Tyrant (T6, WS8 MC):

 

Probability hit = 1/3

Probability of wound given hit = 1/2

 

Against Carnifex (T6, WS3 MC):

 

Probability of hit = 2/3

Probability of wound given hit = 1/2

 

Against CSM DP (5++):

 

Probability of hit = 1/2

Probability of wound given hit = 1/2

Probability of unsaved wound given wound = 2/3

 

Again, we assume an average charge with 6.67 attacks. So we have

 

Against MEQ - 6.67*2/3*3/4 = 3.34 unsaved wounds

Against 3++ - 6.67*2/3*3/4*1/3 = 1.11 unsaved wounds

Against 5++ - 6.67*2/3*3/4*2/3 = 2.22 unsaved wounds

Against Hive Tyrant - 6.67*1/3*1/2 = 1.11 unsaved wounds

Against Carnifex - 6.67*2/3*1/2 = 2.22 unsaved wounds

Against 5++ DP - 6.67*1/2*1/2*2/3 = 1.11 unsaved wounds

 

So it turns out the Nurgle DW isn't actually any better against MEQ than Huron, though it outperforms the undivided lord in everything, as expected. I think the only place the undivided DW would be better is against T3. We can consider the effects of Huron using a fist against a Tyrant while we're at it. Shadow in the Warp is a bummer, but let's assume warptime. We don't care about the I1 of the fist since the Tyrant's unit likely has a lash whip anyway.

 

Probability of hit = 1/3 + 2/3*1/3 = 0.555

Probability of wound given hit = 5/6 + 1/6*5/6 = 0.972

 

So with 4 attacks we expect 4*0.555*0.972 = 2.16 wounds caused

 

Of course getting off Warptime might be harder, but this really illustrates the increased returns on rerolls when you need high rolls to hit. Again, we find that the unreliable nature of the DW means that, although it looks nice in the codex, you really have to rely on getting a good roll precisely when you need it for it to be even remotely good.