Grey Knights in CC

[Cpt. Lacerus]

Greetings, brothers and sisters. I am relatively new to the TT aspect of our hobby but by far my favorite tactic is getting in close and shredding my enemies to pieces. I am currently a Space Wolf player and their Codex is pretty good at achieving my goals. Grey Hunters are great. However, I am looking into staring up an army for my DIY Chapter and I have yet to sit down and take a look through the Grey Knights dex. But, before I buy, I would like to know how they are in CC and what their strengths and weaknesses are. Thanks for your time guys. Any help and comments will be appreciated.

[Babel_Triumphant]

I don't play GK, but I do play against them. Here's my take:

 

Strengths: Tons of power weapons, some at high initiative (halberds)

Weakness: Most of the grey knight units die like marines but cost more points

 

What I can conclude from that is that they're quite solid against heavy infantry, HQs and even MCs because they ignore armor and can use force weapons to instant-death multi-wound models. However, they suffer against hordes such as orcs because their power weapons aren't really helpful and they don't have enough models on the table. They also might have trouble with units like hammernators and howling banshees, because GKs lack the ability to take storm shields.

 

I think you could probably make it work, though. chop up heavily armored enemies in CC and kill hordes with barrages of storm bolter fire.

[Chengar Qordath]

I think you could probably make it work, though. chop up heavily armored enemies in CC and kill hordes with barrages of storm bolter fire.

That is where GKs really shine; they're shooty enough to handle most choppy units, and choppy enough to handle most shooty units.

[greatcrusade08]

tactical marine

1 standard attack

bolter

17pts

 

strike knight

1 attack with NFW, always Pw can be force weapon

storm bolter

psychic power hammerhand, gives +1S

20pts

 

GK is more effective in assault and twice as effective in shooting at 12-24", can assault after shooting too.

the psychic abilities are the real clincher, makes ccw attacks more dangerous or can instakill enemy characters.

 

do the same comparison with chaos marines, grey hunters and you always get the same conclusion, grey knights are superior at the ground level.

people often say GK armies are smaller and/or more expensive, but tbh i found the same when the BA dex was released.

when people play around with the big shiny toys army lists get smaller.. i still think a grass roots 60 man GK army could kick butt with the best of them

[Archon_77]

Addtionally, the best CC unit (arguably) that Grey knights have at their disposal is the Purifier. I6 with a 2 pt. investment, and a psychic power that hits everything on a +4 in assualt. They can also be troops with the right HQ

 

Also, Inquisitors and GKGM's (Both HQ's) and Techmarines (Elites) have access to Psychotroke grenades, which serve as a force multiplier in assault causing all kinds of mayhem from making the enemy I1 to making them literally attack themselves.

[greatcrusade08]

Psychotroke ubercheese grenades

 

the worst thing in the dex IMO is the sanctuary psychic power

[Alpha PTP]

GKSS are decent in close combat. They are space marines with awesome toys and average initiative without paying for halbards, so they are squishy to say the least. Unless I am going up against something that I know I can nuke like Imperial Guard in a turn or two, I keep them back to shoot.

 

Leave close combat to the Purifiers and Paladins.

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't forget the DCA.

 

They are the premier CC unit in the Dex.

[riddles]

psychotroke grenades and rad grenades turn average cc troops (i.e. strike squads - better than a regular sm but still average) into decent cc troops.

 

Best of both worlds - lots of PA bodies, lots of 24 inch shooting, decent CC.

 

For this you need grenade caddies:

Grand Master

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor

Techmarine

 

By far the cheapest is the Inquisitor, clocking in at 55 points (and your compulsory HQ choice) for both sets of grenades. If you want to make him somewhat useful in combat, make him a psyker with hammerhand. Attach him to a strike squad and watch your 85 point model make your guys really quite horrible against most things in the game. If you're running a lot of transports (strike squads in rhinos/razorbacks), the techmarine is not a bad option at all. 120 points gets you both grenades and also blind grenades in case you get assaulted, or want to upset space puppies by denying counterattack. With the servo harness, he replaces the need for a demonhammer in a strike squad and can keep your vehicles up and running. oh, and he's an extra source of hammerhand to boot.

 

However, I'm going to caveat all this by addressing your initial post. Grey Knights certainly can get up close and do some shredding, but if that is your playstyle, you might be better off sticking with the pups for your DIY chapter, solely on the basis that GK work best at 24inchs - forcing your enemy to come through the hail of bolter and psycannon fire BEFORE you hit them in CC. Especially against armies like space wolves where you will likely be outnumbered and they will have one or two combat nasties like wolf lords and thunderwolf cavalry that you want to whittle down first.

 

They are two very different playstyles and should be looked at as such.

[Something Wycked]

If what you really want is close combat from the GK's, you will want to throw 11 or 12 models, a mixture between Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders, into a Stormraven or a Land Raider with a grenade caddy for Rad and/or Psychotroke grenades.

 

DCAs are WS5 S4 I6 with 4 attacks on the charge wielding power weapons, and Crusaders bring an IG stat line with a power weapon and a 3++ to protect the DCAs, all for the price of a C:SM Tactical Marine.

 

Add Coteaz to the list and you can bring a number of these units as Troops.

[the jeske]

do the same comparison with chaos marines, grey hunters and you always get the same conclusion, grey knights are superior at the ground level.

oh please let me do this .

 

 

6 GK with str+1 ammo and psycanon [rending str 7 . hv4 when not moving] 150pts and you get force weapons and a psychic power in the squads. 6 NM with a blaster master and SB 185pts . almost 2 free dudes or almost a free rhino .

 

GK are only overcosted if people take the wrong stuff.

 

speaking of nades last week I seen two units one GM+cult/crusaders charge a unit of xeno INQ/crusader/cult . It was gloriouse both units wiped out each other . or rather both units wiped out themself :down: .

[Archon_77]

do the same comparison with chaos marines, grey hunters and you always get the same conclusion, grey knights are superior at the ground level.

oh please let me do this .

 

 

6 GK with str+1 ammo and psycanon [rending str 7 . hv4 when not moving] 150pts and you get force weapons and a psychic power in the squads. 6 NM with a blaster master and SB 185pts . almost 2 free dudes or almost a free rhino .

 

GK are only overcosted if people take the wrong stuff.

 

speaking of nades last week I seen two units one GM+cult/crusaders charge a unit of xeno INQ/crusader/cult . It was gloriouse both units wiped out each other . or rather both units wiped out themself ^_^ .

 

I've made this mistake as well... Psycannons do not get the +1 for psybolts

[spartan249]

Grey Knights definitely have the capacity to duke it out with the best of them in close combat. However, their real strength lies in their versatility: They bring a powerful shooting game in addition to their impressively good close combat capability (I'm talking mainly purifiers. Strike Squads are marginally better then tactical marines in combat).

 

If you're going to go about making a one-track army dedicated solely to assault, then C:GK is probably not for you, as you pay premium points for a strong shooting game as well. You want an army brimming with tactical options, then C:GK is your go-to codex, as I think it's got the best offerings in terms of true versatility.

[RedemptionNL]

rending str 7

I've made this mistake as well... Psycannons do not get the +1 for psybolts

You are half right, Psycannons indeed do not benefit from Psybolt ammunition, but they are still Strength 7 without them. ;)

[Tayrod]

They also might have trouble with units like hammernators and howling banshees, because GKs lack the ability to take storm shields.

 

Well they do have a Warding staff which gives 2+ invulnerable save in CC, and Sword equipped Termies have a 4+ invurnerable save.

 

 

What I can conclude from that is that they're quite solid against heavy infantry, HQs and even MCs because they ignore armor and can use force weapons to instant-death multi-wound models. However, they suffer against hordes such as orcs because their power weapons aren't really helpful and they don't have enough models on the table.

 

Meeh, GK flamers are stronger then normal marine flamers. GK have the ability to take Counter attack and +Initiatitve weapons AND they have purifierers who are litterally horde breakers.

[Chengar Qordath]

They also might have trouble with units like hammernators and howling banshees, because GKs lack the ability to take storm shields.

 

Well they do have a Warding staff which gives 2+ invulnerable save in CC, and Sword equipped Termies have a 4+ invurnerable save.

Not to mention that halberds lets them hit faster than 90% of the good close combat units in any codex. I can't see them having much trouble against units like banshees when the GKs can hit first and kill off most of the unit before it gets a chance to attack. Sometimes the best form of defense is to kill you enemies before they can hurt you.

 

What I can conclude from that is that they're quite solid against heavy infantry, HQs and even MCs because they ignore armor and can use force weapons to instant-death multi-wound models. However, they suffer against hordes such as orcs because their power weapons aren't really helpful and they don't have enough models on the table.

 

Meeh, GK flamers are stronger then normal marine flamers. GK have the ability to take Counter attack and +Initiatitve weapons AND they have purifierers who are litterally horde breakers.

GK Incinerators are great for frying hordes, but a lot of people don't use them all that often since the psycannon beats it in flexibility by being decent against everything. When you're building an all-comer's list, it's hard not to like a weapon that's the ultimate swiss army knife.

[Brother Tual]

not to bitch but gk08 is right..

 

10 man GKSS with 2 x psycannon - 220

 

10 man tact with fist, plasma + lascannon - 220

 

A full compliment of powerweapons - 24" assault weapons (with 2 shots or more mind you) and str 5 in combat OR the ability to screw with DS with ability (Much better) to destroy armour for the same cost?

 

If Tactical marines were in the GK dex, would you take them? Hell no.

 

GKSS are better at everything at any time in any phase

[RedemptionNL]

If Tactical marines were in the GK dex, would you take them? Hell no.

 

GKSS are better at everything at any time in any phase

Tactical marines are better at retreating! ;)

[Chengar Qordath]

Well, GKSS aren't very good at shooting past 24". Of course, Tacticals can get exactly one gun per squad capable of <24" range, but take the advantages you can get.

 

The various chapter tactics can also be handy too sometimes.

[Oiad]

They also might have trouble with units like hammernators and howling banshees, because GKs lack the ability to take storm shields.

Well they do have a Warding staff which gives 2+ invulnerable save in CC, and Sword equipped Termies have a 4+ invulnerable save.

Definitely. Halberds have their place, mainly against the majority of armies that fit into the I4 to I6 bracket. Otherwise swords (and sometimes Hammers) all the way. Halberds mean nothing to those rare I7+ opponents and are wasted against enemies with I3 to I1 where you'd be striking first anyway. Amazes me when GK players don't get this concept and consider Halberds a must-have regardless.

[RedemptionNL]

Well, GKSS aren't very good at shooting past 24". Of course, Tacticals can get exactly one gun per squad capable of <24" range, but take the advantages you can get.

 

The various chapter tactics can also be handy too sometimes.

Aye, and course GK squads don't have access to AP1/2/3 or S8+ shooting either, so have to rely on weight of numbers and the odd rending psycannon shot to deal with things like armour, Feel No Pain and multi-wound models. Trying to remove something like a sizeable group of FNP Marines by shooting can be an exercise in futility. Of course, this is where force weapons come in handy. ^_^

 

And comparing point costs between different codexes has always been somewhat of an issue, as you can't just take cost differences at face value, but have to see what they mean in context of the codex in question. That said, I wouldn't be suprised if standard Tactical Marines either gain some utility or become cheaper in the next Codex: Space Marines.

[the jeske]

well the odd pushed back by the fact that if they realy want to counter stuff with just psycannons [for range of course] then they spam them . 3-4 psycannons ? your right too few . But that is not how psycannon based armies are build . crow wing has how many 2x6 on puris +3xrifle man and las or las/plas razors. that of course doesnt mean that its the 4ed AC spam , rending back then was way better . but still when your rolling 30+ shots per turn they do tend do drop stuff[specialy with support in form of str9 ap 1 razors or 3d6+3 snipers ]

[Babel_Triumphant]

They also might have trouble with units like hammernators and howling banshees, because GKs lack the ability to take storm shields.

 

Well they do have a Warding staff which gives 2+ invulnerable save in CC, and Sword equipped Termies have a 4+ invurnerable save.

Not to mention that halberds lets them hit faster than 90% of the good close combat units in any codex. I can't see them having much trouble against units like banshees when the GKs can hit first and kill off most of the unit before it gets a chance to attack. Sometimes the best form of defense is to kill you enemies before they can hurt you.

 

They're still not hitting before Howling Banshees, which hit at I10. With swords and staves, they'll kill hammernators, but most people I know just spam halberds.

[Chengar Qordath]

They also might have trouble with units like hammernators and howling banshees, because GKs lack the ability to take storm shields.

 

Well they do have a Warding staff which gives 2+ invulnerable save in CC, and Sword equipped Termies have a 4+ invurnerable save.

Not to mention that halberds lets them hit faster than 90% of the good close combat units in any codex. I can't see them having much trouble against units like banshees when the GKs can hit first and kill off most of the unit before it gets a chance to attack. Sometimes the best form of defense is to kill you enemies before they can hurt you.

 

They're still not hitting before Howling Banshees, which hit at I10. With swords and staves, they'll kill hammernators, but most people I know just spam halberds.

For some reason, I thought banshee masks only worked when they got the charge. Oh well; the only Eldar player in my area doesn't use them anyway.

[RedemptionNL]

For some reason, I thought banshee masks only worked when they got the charge. Oh well; the only Eldar player in my area doesn't use them anyway.

I believe it's the first round of an assault, regardless of who did the charging.