Grey Knights in CC

[Chengar Qordath]

For some reason, I thought banshee masks only worked when they got the charge. Oh well; the only Eldar player in my area doesn't use them anyway.

I believe it's the first round of an assault, regardless of who did the charging.

Yeah; checked the Eldar codex and confirmed that.

 

Oh well; plenty of other cc units that halberds still let GKs get the drop on, and you should really be shooting banshees instead of trying to chop them anyway.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

DCA are glass hammers. They aren't Grey Knights either. Paladins, Purifiers and GKT are the best Grey Knight melee units.

 

G :)

[Gentlemanloser]

GK they aren't, but premier CC unit in the Dex (and I'd dare say nearly the entire game!) they are! :P

 

If only they had Frags... :'(

 

(Or the better 'ignore difficult terrain')

[number6]

GK they aren't, but premier CC unit in the Dex (and I'd dare say nearly the entire game!) they are! ;)

 

If only they had Frags... :'(

And thus they aren't even close to being "premier" assault units. :P Especially considering their poor armour save. Decent for the price, yes. Awesomesauce, no....

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh come on....

 

3 attacks base with S4 Power Wepaons and I6. For 15 points. And a 5+ Invulnerable save.

 

That alone beats out just about every other CC unit in the game. I'm hard pressed to think of something that comes close.

 

Add Frags and they'd become *the* CC unit in the game, with barely a weakness.

 

Edit: Forgot WS5.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Paladins are the premiere assault unit. They can do everything that DCA can do plus a lot more. A smart player will isolate DCA then blast them off the table when the opportunity arises.

 

G

[Gentlemanloser]

CC units, right. So no comparing Shooting prowess.

 

10 x Paladin with Halberds: 550 points.

 

20 WS5, S4/5 Force Weapon attacks at I6 (30 on the charge). With Frags and a 5+ I Save.

 

 

36 x DCA: 540 points.

 

108 WS5, S4 Power Weapon attacks at I6 (144 on the charge). With a 5+ I Save. And able to Sweeping advance. With I6. Unlike the pallies, who even if they could, would do so at I4)

 

So no frags and S4 for an extra 88 attacks.

 

And Pallies are the better CC unit?

 

I don't see it. At all.

[Chengar Qordath]

I'd have to agree with the gentleman; DCA give the best bang for buck of any assault unit in the GK Codex. What Paladins have going for them is the ability to be really nasty assault units and really nasty shooting units and being a lot more durable.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

CC units, right.  So no comparing Shooting prowess.

 

Why not compare shooting? Sure this thread is all about melee but it should be mentioned for a overall view of the strengths of both units.

 

 

10 x Paladin with Halberds: 550 points

 

Actually that's not how most players field this unit and they end up costing more. You often see four psycannons, a warding stave, some daemonhammers and a brotherhood banner. Typically the Librarian also has a warding stave so between him and the Paladin you can soak some wounds... Some also include a generic GM with either a sword (3++) or another stave.

 

 

20 WS5, S4/5 Force Weapon attacks at I6 (30 on the charge).  With Frags and a 5+ I Save.

 

What is the source of the frag grenades - landraider variant (e.g., Crusadsr) or a Stormraven. That adds significantly to the overall cost. Note that I don't think DCA come equipped with frag - please excuse me if I'm wrong. :D

 

Paladins on the other hand don't need a transport - in fact they do just fine without them and they do come standard with frag grenades... Plus some other cool stuff like psych-out grenades.

 

Suppose you have five of the Paladins armed with halberds - I6 as well, 3 attacks base with a brotherhood banner plus they are also WS5.

 

A Paladin also has at least a 5++ save and two wounds apiece.

 

Paladins can also rocket up to I10 if they have a Libby (Quicksilver) plus they can boost to S6+|S10 stacking Hammerhand and|or Might of Titans.

 

Both units have access to pskyotropic and rad grenades via a grenade caddy so that's pretty much a wash.

 

 

36 x DCA: 540 points.

 

108 WS5, S4 Power Weapon attacks at I6 (144 on the charge).  With a 5+ I Save.  And able to Sweeping advance.  With I6.  Unlike the pallies, who even if they could, would do so at I4)

 

So no frags and S4 for an extra 88 attacks.

 

That's overkill. A well designed army list doesn't need that many DCA. It would be more effective to take some Purifiers with halberds. It's mathammer in a vacuum as is much of what has been presented. Also the lack of frag is a major liability.

 

G :(

[Valerian]

They also might have trouble with units like hammernators and howling banshees, because GKs lack the ability to take storm shields.

Well they do have a Warding staff which gives 2+ invulnerable save in CC, and Sword equipped Termies have a 4+ invulnerable save.

Definitely. Halberds have their place, mainly against the majority of armies that fit into the I4 to I6 bracket. Otherwise swords (and sometimes Hammers) all the way. Halberds mean nothing to those rare I7+ opponents and are wasted against enemies with I3 to I1 where you'd be striking first anyway. Amazes me when GK players don't get this concept and consider Halberds a must-have regardless.

 

Oiad,

 

I think they consider Halberds must-have weapons because they aren't building different armies for different opponents and a decent chunk of the games you'll play in tournaments or random pick-up games at the LGS will be against other Marines. Against Marines, those Halberds are well worth it. Certainly worth it enough in the majority of games, to offset the wasted points spent went playing against those armies where the I6 is irrelevant.

 

EDIT: The investment is certainly worthwhile on units where the upgrade is free (Terminators and Paladins) or cheap (Purifiers), and the only real cost is the opportunity cost of not taking Swords of Hammers (which each unit will have 1 or 2 of anyway)

 

Valerian

[Chengar Qordath]

What is the source of the frag grenades - landraider variant (e.g., Crusadsr) or a Stormraven. That adds significantly to the overall cost. Note that I don't think DCA come equipped with frag - please excuse me if I'm wrong. :P

Checked my codex, and I can confirm that DCA don't have frag grenades.

 

There's also the fact that they need an Inquisitor, though that's not as much of an issue. Coteaz can give you as many as you want, and an OX inquisitor can carry grenades to be a huge force multiplier for any cc unit.

[Cpt. Lacerus]

Wow, thank you all very much for the very helpful replies. It is greatly appreciated. It is good to see there is quite an active community for the Knights, all the more reason to start an army! It would seem that you can make a quite capable CC oriented army if you wanted to. My biggest concern before starting this thread was their number of attacks. As a Wolf player I am use to having handfuls of dice in CC and GKSS do unfortunately not get the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons. However, they do all have Storm Bolters and Force Weapons base so that helps a lot. Also, it would appear there are many different ways to boost a units combat prowess between psychic powers and wargear upgrades. Taking Crowe to get Purifiers as troops for me would be an option. But, as I have been snooping around on here, it would seem that people generally do not like Crowe much if at all. Why is that?

[Gentlemanloser]

Why not compare shooting? Sure this thread is all about melee but it should be mentioned for a overall view of the strengths of both units.

 

Because shooting isn't CC.

 

The question was about GK units in CC, not what's the best all round or overall GK unit.

 

*Obviously* Paladin are better overall units than CDA. But they cost over 3.5 times the amount. You'd expect them to be a better all round unit.

 

But a better CC unit? No, they aren't.

 

Actually that's not how most players field this unit and they end up costing more. You often see four psycannons, a warding stave, some daemonhammers and a brotherhood banner. Typically the Librarian also has a warding stave so between him and the Paladin you can soak some wounds... Some also include a generic GM with either a sword (3++) or another stave.

 

So?

 

Halberds where chosen uniformly to match the I6 of DCA, for a more accurate comparison. And adding in extra units? Why on earth mention that? Let's add in an Inq to the DCA for 'nades.

 

And again, no Psycannons, as we're not in any way interested in shooting capabilites for a CC comparison.

 

Not until 6th at least if Assault Weapons end up granting +1A in CC...

 

What is the source of the frag grenades

 

GKT have Frags as standard. DCA don't. It's the one, limiting, factor of DCA in CC. If you thought I was writing that the DCA had frags, I think you've misread both my post sin this thread. I've always stated that DCA don't get frags.

 

Paladins can also rocket up to I10 if they have a Libby (Quicksilver)

 

Again, why on earth start adding in other units? Let's also add a techmarine to the DCA as well!

 

That's overkill. A well designed army list doesn't need that many DCA.

 

What? You do understand it was a like for like comparison of equal costs, right?

 

Hell chop the points down to 275 total for 5 pallies versus 18 DCA.

 

You'll get the same results, just smaller numbers.

 

A question.

 

There's probably a CC unit out there better than DCA (Incubi?) but i'm hard pressed to think of one.

 

Can anyone rustle out a CC unit better in CC than the DCA?

 

Edit: The other real downside to DCA in CC (which has been alluded to and not mentioned yet) is thier inability to deal with AV over 10. So they have nothing to hurt Walkers.

 

Pallies can take a hammer, or in the least use Krak Grenades.

 

But at least with the same I save, DCA can tarpit them, just like Pallies (who would suffer ID to any DCCW hits they failed a save for).

[the jeske]

after you start killing more then 10+meq on avarge per charge turn , it stops to matter if you kill 15 or "only" 12 of them on avarge . paladins are better units [not just hth] because they are multi wound , they dont force you to invest in to an INQ [which may not have a place in the list your having] , they have shoting abilities[and before you say but what does this have to do with cc , then well paladins can open a transport and charge something inside . the DCA/crusader cant] . the paladins even without FnP or counting the multi wounds just take less damage . A speeders with MM/flamer or any form of template and the dca/crus squad is very unhappy. It of course doesnt mean that the DCA/cru are a bad hth unit , no way . they are ok , for the points [even when one counts the INQ tax to take them] .

 

And again, no Psycannons, as we're not in any way interested in shooting capabilites for a CC comparison.

and unless a scenario says no shoting in the game ever , what does that tell us about the use of DCA/paladins ? nothing . one unit shots and on does . one is multi wound and will have mixed weapons . sure If someone can dump a unit of DCA in charge range of paladins and the transport isnt destroyed and there is no cover[or they are using a crusader] , the paladins will win . DCA are a fire and forget unit . they kill something and if they are alive at the end of your next turn your lucky[or your opponent cant kill them , which means it doesnt matter what kind of a unit charged him ] , the paladins live , take shots from whole armies and are still a viable unit .

[Gentlemanloser]

The topic isn't "What's the best GK unit overall?"

 

It's about GK in CC.

 

The best CC unit in the Codex are the DCA. They're not the best overall unit in the Codex...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You really need to take into consideration that DCA need a grenade caddy and a transport and that they are only good in melee.

 

G :sweat:

[KnowThyEnemy]

@ gentleman: i believe they are just ignoring you :).

 

you do not need to take into consideration grenade caddies or transports or shooting or anything of that sort for this thread. none of it. the OP, and title, is about grey knights in CC. not grey knights moving, shooting and CC. its kind of boggling my mind that the replies to gentleman's statements are centered around non-CC strengths.

 

i think its well established what the optimized builds are for each unit. no one is going to take 10 paladins with just halberds, clearly not the "best" way to run them, they can be so much more dynamic. in the same breath, no one is going to run 12 deathcult assassins, its not the "best" way to run them. but you have to ask yourself, why wouldn't people run 12 dca? could it be that 12 dca put out a rediculous amount of pw attacks on the charge and would whipe 9/10 units they run into? sounds about right to me.

 

its easy to say, "o well dca need to rely on grenade caddies to work" or "if they get caught out in the open, they'll got shot to pieces". both reasonable statements, but a little erroneous i feel. dca coming out of LRC's work pretty well, no caddy needed. solves your transport issue too. 5++ gives them some help, coupled with the fact your probably not running 12 dca, trying to whipe a unit first round of CC.

 

its also easy to say, "paladins always take psycannons and wound allocation shenanigins" and "a librarian and grandmaster with stave (really?) will be in that unit". congratulations, that unit has no transport options outside of DS, which means you shoot all that lovely wirepower and stay close together or your spread out and dont shoot. not to mention the gobs of AT fire there is out there in the meta, which works very nicely against T4 models. also, that unit is ALOT of points, which will almost certainly take up the bulk of your army, leaving little for support. if your comparing other aspects of the game and not just CC, you should include that as well.

 

the whole point of this rant-and-rave is not to be a jackass (hopefully im not coming off as such, if i am i apologise), its to say that you are either comparing the skills of GK units in CC or overall, can't be bits and pieces. point for point, pound for pound, DCA is the best CC option in the game. perfect vacuums don't exist, but if they did the DCA would wreck face 10/10 all day long. 3 PW attacks, WS5, S4, 15 points. thats 5 points per WS5 S4 PW attack. how many points do paladins pay? ;)

 

@jeske: i believe the point of saying "this unit kills 15 meq vs that units 12 meq" is to give you an idea of the statistical likeliness to destroying whatever that unit touches. we all know dice don't play by the rules, so saying something will kill 15 mew doesnt MEAN its going to kill 15 meq, but it does mean its more efficient/effective at killing than the unit that only averages 12 meq. so it is a valid point.

[KnowThyEnemy]

o and on the subject of "dca need grenade caddies and transports". an 11 man DCA squad (or 8 DCA and 3 Crusaders for some survivability) with OX caddie+hammerhand and a LRC comes in at cheaper than that bare bones 10 man pallie squad and. WILL. WRECK. FACE :)

[AnImA8]

I actually find this whole debate really peculiar... Just to clarify for everyone btw, that the question of "which Grey Knights Codex unit is best in CC" was never in the title or the OP. So while I think Gentleman and KnowThyEnemy have the most compelling arguments, neither of you two are actually answering the question (don't worry it's not just you guys, the Paladin-camp also isn't really addressing the question either...)

 

-AnImA

[Gentlemanloser]

It's an extrapolation from;

 

before I buy, I would like to know how they are in CC and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

 

Well, in the 'dex, the DCA are the premier CC unit. I think we've covered both thier strengths and weaknesses enough. ;)

 

DCA are especially relevant if;

 

my favorite tactic is getting in close and shredding my enemies to pieces.

[number6]

Oh come on....

 

3 attacks base with S4 Power Wepaons and I6. For 15 points. And a 5+ Invulnerable save.

 

That alone beats out just about every other CC unit in the game. I'm hard pressed to think of something that comes close.

 

Add Frags and they'd become *the* CC unit in the game, with barely a weakness.

 

Edit: Forgot WS5.

You definitely want to have your cake and eat it, too.

 

When talking about terminators, the 5+ save isn't even worth a mention in the "PRO" column. But on DCAs, it's an amazing thing. ;)

 

No, a 5+ save -- if that's all you have -- is not a "good" save. It's awful. Especially on a T3 model.

 

When talking about Strikes v Terminators, your argument depends entirely on units being in cover. Yet somehow, being unable to take advantage of I6 when assaulting into cover isn't a distinct and considerable shortcoming with DCAs. :P I mean, if you're keeping Strikers in cover to improve their capabilities, why wouldn't your opponent -- who knows you have DCAs and where they are at all times -- use cover just as intelligently?

 

You have to think about the entire reality of the game. Only in the entire context of the game can these analyses have any meaning. Your vacuum analysis is misleading and unrealistic.

 

All that said, I like DCAs. They are a legitimately useful, cool, and scary unit. But even a basic Marine squad can easily handle them just by sticking to cover. A few bolter rounds will down them right quick. And provided they remain in cover, even an assault by DCAs won't be nearly as deadly as it would be in the open.

[breng77]

The comparison between DCA and Paladins is really a false comparison. IN any 1 combat an equal points worth of DCA will do more damage then the same points worth of Paladins (you can get nearly 4 DCA for every paladin.) These two units fill very different rolls. Paladins "in general" are a durable hamemr style unit. They soak up damage, as well as kill things in hand to hand. DCA on the other hand are a counter-charge unit. They are not good at going out front and killing stuff (if they do that they kill one thing, and then die to shooting.) they are great at being a threat to units that get near your lines, and rescuing other units that are stuck in hand to hand. They are not good a long combats, because they are not durable. As far as talking about ICs being attached to units, that is a pointless discussion because both units can have attached ICs. TO me the DCA are a bigger threat for the points you spend on them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

As breng77 has noted above to properly address the question its important to analyze and consider other things, not just the unit itself.

 

G

[Gentlemanloser]

When talking about terminators, the 5+ save isn't even worth a mention in the "PRO" column. But on DCAs, it's an amazing thing.

 

Becuase it's outshined by thier 2+ Armour save? And becuase even *with* it Strikes with no I save are more durable?

 

It's a totally different situation here.

 

No, a 5+ save -- if that's all you have -- is not a "good" save. It's awful. Especially on a T3 model.

 

Yeah, DCA are about as durable as wet tissue. They are glass cannons. I've never disputed that.

 

Still doesn't stop them being our premier CC unit.

 

DCA would be *far* from being our 'most durable' unit, if that was what you wanted. But this topic isn't about our durability.

 

When talking about Strikes v Terminators, your argument depends entirely on units being in cover. Yet somehow, being unable to take advantage of I6 when assaulting into cover isn't a distinct and considerable shortcoming with DCAs. I mean, if you're keeping Strikers in cover to improve their capabilities, why wouldn't your opponent -- who knows you have DCAs and where they are at all times -- use cover just as intelligently?

 

No, it doesn't, I've absolutley no idea where you've got that from. And what has Strikes versus GKT have to do here?

 

You have to think about the entire reality of the game. Only in the entire context of the game can these analyses have any meaning. Your vacuum analysis is misleading and unrealistic.

 

No, not really. We're not looking at synergy here, or army builds. (Stick a 'nade carrier and someone with a hammer with the DCA, and a few Crusaders for SS, and someone with Psyk-outs and an assault transport, and there you go, all thier weaknesses gone...)

 

Just how they perfom in CC.

 

Not how they perform shooting up a unit to soften them up first, then assaulting.

 

Just how they perform in CC.

 

All that said, I like DCAs. They are a legitimately useful, cool, and scary unit. But even a basic Marine squad can easily handle them just by sticking to cover. A few bolter rounds will down them right quick. And provided they remain in cover, even an assault by DCAs won't be nearly as deadly as it would be in the open.

 

Then show me the unit that out CCs the DCA. And no, not every CC will revolve around you assaulting units in Cover. And no. No basic SM squad will beat the DCA, even if they remian in cover.

 

(Forgive me if these stats are wrong, I'm going by memory for the SM Squad here...)

 

10 Man Tac Squad, 11 WS4, S4 attacks, 170 Points.

 

11 DCA, 165 points.

 

The worst case senario, the DCA charge the Tac Squad in Cover.

 

Round1;

Tac Squad attacks first, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 3.7 wounds, 2.5 DCA killed.

 

8.5 DCA attack, 34 attacks, 22.7 hits, 11.3 wounds, 11.3 Marines dead.

 

DCA win...

 

 

I've also stated numerous times that the lack of frags is a drawback for the DCA.

 

Them having Frags (or as I've mentioned before the better 'ignore difficult terrain'), and a way to pop AV12/13 Walkers would make them the best CC unit in the game. With out any drawback.

[number6]

Read breng77's last post. There's much more to being a "premier" assault unit than rolling a lot of attack dice. Because in the real world, DCAs might kill one unit, but then will just die to enemy shooting and/or a counter-assault. Trading x points of DCAs for x points of the enemy is not very impressive if you're just going to lose those DCAs anyway.