Grey Knights in CC

[Gentlemanloser]

Who is going to counter assault a unit of DCA and win?

 

And in the real world you have other threats in your army. If your enemy is shooting your DCA that just wiped out one of thier Squads, it's not shooting at the other threats you have. Heaven forbid that squad that's supposed ot be shooting at you wasn't also wiped out in your last assault phase...

 

And any good player will realise that, and use it to thier advantage.

 

See I can play this game too...

 

I'm getting really disappointed by the posting style in the B&C. This forum used to be a lot better.

 

/sadface

[Something Wycked]

Wow, you guys are so intent on your discussion that it seems like nobody's stopped to answer the OP's next question?

Taking Crowe to get Purifiers as troops for me would be an option. But, as I have been snooping around on here, it would seem that people generally do not like Crowe much if at all. Why is that?

Crowe is considered "sub-par" by the competitive folks because he lacks the IC rule, so he cannot join squads for protection, and any enemy unit that charges Crowe receives Furious Charge and re-rolls to hit in that phase. If you want to give Crowe a transport, he basically has to steal a ride from another unit, and he must ride alone (no IC rule.)

 

His sword stances are also somewhat limiting; against non-IC units, his number of attacks is defined by the number of models in base contact with him. That being said, Crowe can often win combats by himself by using his defensive stance to reroll all failed armor and invulnerable saves while trusting to Cleansing Flame to deal wounds to the enemy unit.

 

In my opinion, all of this translates to "he's not easy like point-and-click to use, so he sucks; he's just the Crowe tax to use Purifiers as Troops." And we've seen this kind of thinking on a number of different units, but I don't believe this to be true. I personally enjoy using units that require skill to use properly and effectively, and Crowe is one of those units.

[RedemptionNL]

His sword stances are also somewhat limiting; against non-IC units, his number of attacks is defined by the number of models in base contact with him. That being said, Crowe can often win combats by himself by using his defensive stance to reroll all failed armor and invulnerable saves while trusting to Cleansing Flame to deal wounds to the enemy unit.

 

My usualy Ork opponent thought Crowe was a push over too, untill Crowe soloed one of his 30 man boys squads by himself in one assault phase by killing half of them with Cleansing Flame, surviving the counter attacks with his re-rollable 2+/4++ saves and then finishing off the other half with No Retreat wounds.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've used Crowe to Heroic Sacrifice Lysander.

 

Eternal Warrior that!

[KnowThyEnemy]

fair point, wycked. allow me to sum the CC-ness of GKs up a bit:

 

DCA:

Strengths: lot of "bang for the buck", above average weapon skill, 3 S4 pw attacks base, high initiative

Weaknesses: lack frag grenades, only a 5++, T3, lack fleet so need a transport to get them to the fight reliably

 

Paladins:

Strengths: 2 wounds, above average weapon skill, 2 S4 pw base, free NFW changes, access to wound allocation tricks to keep them in the fight, hammerhand bonus, 2+ save, can shoot ALOT when not in CC

Weakness: very expensive points-wise, most likely will be deepstriking or footing it across the board (typical 10 man squad), vunerable to s8/9/10 ap1/2 blasts, will lose out to more dedicated CC troops

 

Purifiers:

Strengths: fearless, 2 S4 pw base, hammerhand AND cleansing flame, can shoot a decent amount when not in CC

Weakness: No invuln save, need a transport for mobility/protection, will lose out to more dedicated CC troops

 

realistically, purifiers are probably a smarter choice to base an army around. this is assuming your going after 1 specifically. i wouldnt mind running a couple MSU purifier units, 1 pally deathstar and some DCA madness, but thats besides the point. purifiers are excellent infantry, they have good statlines, great shooting with some decent CC lovin to back it up. they are a perfect middle ground inbetween DCA (cheap and stabby but fragile) and paladins (beefy and shooty but points heavy). the only issue is needing crowe to make them troops. putting him in a stormraven and have him turboboosting around the board till the cows come home is how i tend to run him. 2 KP in one spot but you just have to be smart as to where you put the stormraven.

 

so, if you want your guys to wreck face in CC, DCA are a great choice. If you want them to do great and still have the option of shooting people off the board and denying them a killpoint, paladins are your men. if you want a little of both with the added benefit of horde control and fearless, look no further: purifiers FTW

[breng77]

And in the real world you have other threats in your army. If your enemy is shooting your DCA that just wiped out one of thier Squads, it's not shooting at the other threats you have. Heaven forbid that squad that's supposed ot be shooting at you wasn't also wiped out in your last assault phase...

 

sure that is possible, the only thing I was stating is that DCA cannot (like paladins) run around unsupported due to their lack of durability. Most DCA squads I see are 6-8 guys. These squads can easily be wiped out by things like 10 marines rapid firing. They are also vunerable to having thier transport die. LD8 (if unsupported though I will grant that they are usually supported by an IC in most cases), means they fail a reasonable ammount of the time for pinning, on top of which explosions can really hurt them.

 

Who is going to counter assault a unit of DCA and win?

 

If they don't have a grenade caddy, then things like DE wyches or Blood Brides, Harlequins, Howling banshees, Daemonettes, Seekers. Tyranid Warriors with lashwips, wraiths with whip coils. A squad of 30 ork boyz. All of these units in general will win a counter charge against a squad of DCA, due to large numbers of attacks, or better initiative in said combat. Purifiers could also do ok if outfitted with halberds on a counter charge due to cleansing flame, and storm bolters.

 

If they have Psykobroke grenades then it comes down to do the DCA roll well enough to hurt the effectiveness of the other squad. (Mostly a 2, 5 or 6).

 

I'm not saying DCA are bad, they are killier for their points (against MEQ) than just about anything out there, but like anything else they have their bad matchups.

 

I like DCA but they are not a go out front and be a hammer unit. They are an anti-hammer/counter charge unit. They either go take out your opponents expensive hammer for way less points, or they stay back and pick off anything that gets close.

[number6]

And in the real world you have other threats in your army. If your enemy is shooting your DCA that just wiped out one of thier Squads, it's not shooting at the other threats you have. Heaven forbid that squad that's supposed ot be shooting at you wasn't also wiped out in your last assault phase...

 

And any good player will realise that, and use it to thier advantage.

 

See I can play this game too...

How circular or deep would you like this to get? :P Your assumptions rely upon your enemy being available for a clean charge from your full unit of DCAs. How did you get them there unharmed? How is your opponent unable to counter them before they get there? Why is your "whole army" a priori so much better that you can virtually guarantee that your "premier" assault unit is going to wipe out its single target in every game you play?

 

Just because DCAs roll buckets of dice in assault does not mean they are "the premier" assault units in the game. I would happily send 165 pts of poisoned hormagaunts or termagants into DCA, and not just as a countercharge. Heck, considering that you are now willing to address "the whole" army, I'd happily send in far fewer points worth of gants/gaunts to bog them down indefinitely, and just pile in more gants/gaunts as needed to stall them and eventually kill them at my leisure.

 

By your method of measuring, the simple poisoned termagants are WAY more "premier" in assault than DCAs since just from simple dice rolling with equivalent points they'll kill off your DCAs every time. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GL that is the major underlying problem with your posts in general - you always assume ideal conditions to be in play for your advantage and the exact opposite if it doesn't suit your argument.

 

G :)

[Gentlemanloser]

sure that is possible, the only thing I was stating is that DCA cannot (like paladins) run around unsupported due to their lack of durability. Most DCA squads I see are 6-8 guys. These squads can easily be wiped out by things like 10 marines rapid firing. They are also vunerable to having thier transport die. LD8 (if unsupported though I will grant that they are usually supported by an IC in most cases), means they fail a reasonable ammount of the time for pinning, on top of which explosions can really hurt them.

 

I'd like to see someone math our the durability to Pallies to DCA, point for point. I'm sure the Pallies would come out on top, but I tihnk it would be close.

 

Anyway, I wasn't commenting on your post there. :)

 

If they don't have a grenade caddy, then things like DE wyches or Blood Brides, Harlequins, Howling banshees, Daemonettes, Seekers. Tyranid Warriors with lashwips, wraiths with whip coils. A squad of 30 ork boyz. All of these units in general will win a counter charge against a squad of DCA, due to large numbers of attacks, or better initiative in said combat. Purifiers could also do ok if outfitted with halberds on a counter charge due to cleansing flame, and storm bolters.

 

If they have Psykobroke grenades then it comes down to do the DCA roll well enough to hurt the effectiveness of the other squad. (Mostly a 2, 5 or 6).

 

I'm not saying DCA are bad, they are killier for their points (against MEQ) than just about anything out there, but like anything else they have their bad matchups.

 

Wyches (could be mistaken, can't remember thier stats), while cheaper have lower WS, A, S and I, unless one gets boosted by a good drugs roll don't they? I think even with a slightly wrose save in CC( 5+ compared tot he Wyches 4+), DCA would still come out on top. Harlies just aren't scary any more, but again, i've utterly forgotten thier stats, as you don't see them enough these days.

 

I'd be glad if someone mathed out some eno:cussers with these units, just to see who actually comes out on top. :P

 

It's not just MEQ they are good agianst, but thier high WS and high number of attacks make them generally good in CC anyway. Thier very high I is just the icing ont he cake.

 

How circular or deep would you like this to get?

 

I'd rather not have it go anywhere. I find this type of posting tedious and unconstructive. My perfect tactics and placement trump your perfect tactcis and placement. My rolls trump your rolls. Etc. /yawn

 

Your assumptions rely upon your enemy being available for a clean charge from your full unit of DCAs. How did you get them there unharmed? How is your opponent unable to counter them before they get there? Why is your "whole army" a priori so much better that you can virtually guarantee that your "premier" assault unit is going to wipe out its single target in every game you play?

 

My assumptions are 'general', in order to provide as balanced an assessment as possible. Let me return the favour. Your assumptions rely upon the DCA being in LoS and Range to another unit so they are able to be shot at.

 

Just because DCAs roll buckets of dice in assault does not mean they are "the premier" assault units in the game.

 

It's not just buckets of dice.

 

You happily ignore;

 

Their high WS.

Thier very high I

Thier good Strength

An Invulnerable save in CC

Thier low points cost.

 

Wrap these all together with thier buckets of dice, and the whole package make them one of, if not the, best CC unit in the game.

 

By your method of measuring, the simple poisoned termagants are WAY more "premier" in assault than DCAs since just from simple dice rolling with equivalent points they'll kill off your DCAs every time.

 

Having never faced Tyranids this expansion, I'd be more than happy for you to show this.

 

Please math out the engangement, even from the worse case senario for the DCA, and show how it runs.

 

GL that is the major underlying problem with your posts in general - you always assume ideal conditions to be in play for your advantage and the exact opposite if it doesn't suit your argument.

 

That is *so* utterly wrong, I don't even know where to start...

 

The worst case senario, the DCA charge the Tac Squad in Cover.

 

There you go.

[breng77]

Wyches (could be mistaken, can't remember thier stats), while cheaper have lower WS, A, S and I, unless one gets boosted by a good drugs roll don't they? I think even with a slightly wrose save in CC( 5+ compared tot he Wyches 4+), DCA would still come out on top. Harlies just aren't scary any more, but again, i've utterly forgotten thier stats, as you don't see them enough these days.

 

I'd be glad if someone mathed out some eno:cussers with these units, just to see who actually comes out on top.

 

It's not just MEQ they are good agianst, but thier high WS and high number of attacks make them generally good in CC anyway. Thier very high I is just the icing ont he cake.

 

Wyches on the charge (since it is a counter charge) get 3 attacks each (so equal to the DCA) and cost 2/3rds as much and have a better invul save. So if we look at 10 DCA VS 15 wyches (with no upgrades) Wyches come out ahead 7.5 kills to 6.7 This does assume though that the wyches have not rolled the drugs for +1WS, +1S, +1A, Re-rolls to hit. and have not yet gotten furious charge through pain tokens (which they could start with one of drugs and get another if a haemonculous was attached)

 

Basically if they have any of the the above rolls it is even more in favor of the Wyches (point for point, and usually they are running around with the + d6 attacks wyche weapons, and a sarge with an agonizer who I think gets 4 attacks on the charge.

 

Harlequins on the charge get 4 attacks each I believe at WS 5 S 4 and I 7. Now they are more expensive at 22 points each So would only get 7ish guys for every 10 DCA, but they strike first and wound on 3s, so those 7 guys will kill 6 DCA before they get to swing, and so the 4 DCA swinging back

would kill 2-3 Harlequins.

 

SO for some of the other units I mentioned at equal points for 10 DCA

Seekers lose 7.5 wounds to 8.9

Daemonettes lose 7.3 wounds to 8.9

Orks(25 boys are equivalent) win 13.33 wounds to 10.

 

I don't have the stats for attacks on Howling banshees on hand I figure though that striking first will win them the fight, but this could be wrong, warriors and wraiths I have in there for the same reason and wraiths have a 3++.

 

It's not just MEQ they are good agianst, but thier high WS and high number of attacks make them generally good in CC anyway. Thier very high I is just the icing ont he cake.

 

The reason I said that they are great against MEQ, is that they rely on Having enough attacks to cripple the unit they attack, before that unit swings back, as evindenced in the math against say equal points of orks the DCA come up short because there are simply too many attack remaining after they get their swings in. Realistically any unit that can shoot and charge (and is willing to take a couple casulties.). a squad of halberd purifiers (6 strong) could move shoot and charge and likely wipe out the the 10 DCA. They shoot and kill 3.6 on the way in so lets say 3 to give the DCA an advantage, then charge and use cleansing flame (7 DCA so lets say 3 are wounded, so 2 die) so we have now 6 purifiers vs 5 DCA (this could just as easily be 6 purifiers vs 4 dca due to rounding). SO now both squads swing Purifiers get 18 attacks, hit 9 wound 6 which kills 4 DCA, the DCA have 15 attacks, hit 10 wound 5, So each squad ends up with 1 guy left and the DCA lose combat by 1 and need to check LD or be swept.

[number6]

Having never faced Tyranids this expansion, I'd be more than happy for you to show this.

 

Please math out the engangement, even from the worse case senario for the DCA, and show how it runs.

150 pts gets you 10 DCAs or 30 Termagants.

 

Worst case for the Termagants is the DCAs charge and the gants instead rely on the nearby Tervigon giving them the Counter-Charge USR.

 

 

== Round 1 ==

 

10 DCAs go first: 30 attacks => 20 hits => 13.3 dead gants. We'll be generous and call it a full 14 dead.

 

16 Termagants go 2nd: 32 attacks => 16 hits => 12 wounds (rerolling 4+ poisoned attacks) => 8 dead DCA. Gants lose combat and take 6 Fearless wounds for another 5 dead gants (6+ armour saves), leaving 11 alive into the next round.

 

 

== Round 2 ==

 

2 DCAs go first: 4 attacks => 2.67 hits => 1.77 dead gants. Again, we'll be generous and call it 2 fully dead gants.

 

9 Termagants go 2nd: 9 attacks => 4.5 hits => 3.375 wounds => 2.25 dead DCAs.

 

** Termagant victory **

 

As you can see, it would have gone MUCH worse for the DCAs had the termagants gotten the charge off. Or if the DCAs had to charge through cover. (Wouldn't even need a Tervigon's Counter Charge boost in either case, then.) Clearly Termagants must be the "premier" assault units in the game, right? :)

[Something Wycked]

Your math is a bit off, 6. 10 DCA's going first is 40 attacks, not 30 :D 2 attacks base, paired weapons, +1 charging. Similarly, you only gave DCA's 2 attacks each in the second round when they should have 3.

 

So: DCA 26.66 hits, 17.7 wounds.

 

12 Termagaunts go 2nd: 24 attacks, 12 hits, 9 wounds, 6 dead DCA. 12 Fearless wounds, 10 more dead Termagaunts.

 

Round 2:

 

4 DCA go first and kill the remaining 2 Termagaunts.

[KnowThyEnemy]

6, normally i agree with you, but this made me chuckle.

 

150 pts gets you 10 DCAs or 30 Termagants.

 

Worst case for the Termagants is the DCAs charge and the gants instead rely on the nearby Tervigon giving them the Counter-Charge USR.

 

c'mon, worst case? really? youve compared them at equal point values and THEN tossed in a support unit worth a decent amount itself as the "worst case" for the termagaunts :D.

 

i understand people take tervigons with termagaunts or with the idea of creating them, but your adding in extra dynamics to favor the termagaunts while claiming thats the worst case. no matter what angle these discussions take, there is always a counter-point situation. i.e. the termagaunts shooting the DCA on the way in, or the DCA charging the "free" Tervigon instead, or etc etc. if your going to make a "worst case" scenario, lets try and keep it as such. afterall, for the price of your tervigon, im sure the DCA could get some lovely boosts :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The thing is DCA are a glass hammer unit. A smart opponent will deny them the charge or set them up with a bait unit. Paladins and GKT are both much more survivable which in turn provides more tactical options. DCA are good at what they do but just because they are cheaper doesn't mean they are better. There are other units that can inflict just as much damage in melee if not more... For example DCA have no answer to dreads.

 

G :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Great post Breng. :P

 

How does it work out the other way round, with the DCA getting the charge?

 

12 Termagaunts go 2nd: 24 attacks, 12 hits

 

Termagaunts are WS5? Nice!

 

A smart opponent will deny them the charge or set them up with a bait unit

 

A smart player will get the charge and ignore the bait unit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A smart opponent will deny them the charge or set them up with a bait unit

 

A smart player will get the charge and ignore the bait unit.

 

Not necessarily. Especially if the DCA happen to lose their ride. In one of the NOVA top matches this year a Draigowing player capped the chimera full of DCA then shot them off the table. This was two of the top players there.

 

G :P

[Gentlemanloser]

This is why I find these sorts of posts useless...

 

A smart opponent will deny them the charge or set them up with a bait unit

 

Not necessarily. Especially if the DCA don't lose their ride.

[breng77]

Great post Breng.

 

How does it work out the other way round, with the DCA getting the charge?

 

In almost all these cases the DCA will win (you can tell just by looking at how close the numbers are.

 

Orks (DCA win 13-8)

Harlequins without FC would probably lose out due to having fewer models and strength (and attacks with reversed charge bonus)

Wyches with no upgrade lose 9-5 (+1 WS they still lose 6.7 to 5, +1 S they lose 9 - 6.7, +1A or re-rolls they lose 9 - 7.5)

 

Just for point of interest as I am not sure of their point costs Banshees (without special exarch upgrades) are really not a great match up for DCA, it comes down to that they lack an Invul save and the fact that DCA have an Invul save. In order for them to win an assault against 10 DCA, you need 12 Banshees (you win 6 wounds to 5.3), anything below that and banshees lose when the DCA swing back. As I am sure that they are not cheaper than DCA that matchup is a loss (though they can shoot a bit first, but really not a great matchup).

 

Also though I am not sure of the points Hekatrix blood brides are actually an even match (when they charge) (not sure of the points) but 10 vs 10 comes out even, with the advantage to the bloodbrides due to combat drugs (as almost any roll gives them a leg up)

[Gentlemanloser]

So in your opinion, would DCA class as one of the best CC units in the game?

 

And would probably be the best, if they had access to Frags (and a way to kill Walkers)?

 

Breng, would you say that purely for CC prowess, there's a better unit in the GK than the DCA?

[number6]

c'mon, worst case? really? youve compared them at equal point values and THEN tossed in a support unit worth a decent amount itself as the "worst case" for the termagaunts :).

It's no different than assuming that the DCA's ride got them unscathed into position to charge the termagants. A LOT of support must be present for that situation to be true.

 

All your complaint highlights is the ridiculousnous of these kinds of assertions! There are so many assumptions inherent in making these kinds of claims that I am astounded that people not only make them, but make them out to be absolutes. :rolleyes:

 

@Something Wycked: Good catch! I did forget the paired weapons. :blush: It does appear that the gants would die at the cost of 6 DCAs. What that means is that the unit that cleanly charges -- i.e., not through cover -- will win. (I.e., the situation I outlined above would actually be what happens if the gants charged the DCAs.)

 

But as I just said, so many assumptions involved... What does this comparison actually mean? I don't put any stock into it whatsoever. The units in question can potentially kill each other off. So? Which one is better? One is Troops, the other is Elite. One can take a transport, the other doesn't. And so on and so forth. There is so mucn more to unit analysis than pure number crunching. That's the easy part. But too many people think that's the endpoint, when it should only be the beginning.

 

Termagaunts are WS5? Nice!

:huh: WS 3 v WS 5 means they hit on 4s. So half of 24 attacks is 12.

[breng77]

Looking at the whole picture I would say the following.

 

For the purpose of killing one single unit in hand to hand, DCA are among the best CC units in the game.

Acting in the role of a counter charging unit, DCA are among the best units CC units in the game.

Killing opposing hammer units DCA are among the best CC units in the game.

Point for point DCA are the best CC unit in the game.

Especially supported in context of the GK codex (hammer hand, libby powers, and grenades.), DCA are a very effective CC unit (A libby or grenade cady swings almost every fight to the advantage of the DCA.)

 

For functioning as a hammer unit (being resiliant and killer in hand to hand.) other units in the game, and in the GK dex. Paladins for example can function as a unit that kills units, and takes incoming fire and works as a consistent threat, which is something that DCA are not good at. This unit will cost more points than the DCA, but it fills a different role. In addition the DCA can probably kill this unit in CC (especially with support rad grenades + double hammer hand eats paladins.)

 

For killing hordes in CC purifiers are better, but against smaller squads they are not as good.

 

IF DCA had frags, they would be better at what they already do, because they would be better at digging units out of cover.

 

All in all FOR THE POINTS, DCA are the strongest CC unit in the GK dex.

 

DCA do have a way to kill Dreads, He is called a Librarian with Might of titan :rolleyes:.

 

 

Also I forgot Genestealers who win on the charge 9.8 wounds to 7.5, better WS helps a lot, but lose getting charged 6.5 - 10.

[Gentlemanloser]

WS 3 v WS 5 means they hit on 4s. So half of 24 attacks is 12.

 

Opps!

 

It's no different than assuming that the DCA's ride got them unscathed into position to charge the termagants. A LOT of support must be present for that situation to be true.

 

Yes it is.

 

The comparions is done as close as possible to like for like.

 

You're trying to twist assumptions.

 

I'll do the same.

 

You're assuming the Termagants didn't get shot to ribbons by the rest of the army before the DCA charge.

 

If we leave the :rolleyes:-ing of my perfect move versus your perfect move, and look at the encounter in as controlled and balanced a fashion as possible, you can't include a buff from another unit for free.

 

Otherwise you need to factor in the GK Libby near the DCA givig them Might of Titans and Quickening.

 

I wondr how *that* would change the result...

 

Point for point DCA are the best CC unit in the game.

 

:blush:

[Something Wycked]

Paladins for example can function as a unit that kills units, and takes incoming fire and works as a consistent threat, which is something that DCA are not good at. This unit will cost more points than the DCA, but it fills a different role.

Emphasis mine.

 

This is the point that everyone needs to take into consideration and keep in mind when picking units to put into army lists-- and when dispensing advice on these forums. Every unit has a use, a purpose, and in that particular role that unit is the best choice.

 

If you want a unit that can effectively wipe any other unit off the table in a single turn of assault, DCA is the unit for that role. DCA cannot fill the role of "consistent threat" as breng mentions above- they simply do not have the same survivability or presence on the table, cannot inflict any shooting damage at all, etc.

If you want a unit that can perform well ("well" meaning "better than the codex' baseline unit") in shooting and assault, then Terminators, Purifiers or Paladins are the unit for that role, depending on other tactical considerations- even in this "generalist" role, these three units vary dramatically in the specifics of their use.

 

I could go on and on, but you get the idea- breng is spot on; every unit will be the best at a particular role on the table. :rolleyes:

 

Edit:

Point for point DCA are the best CC unit in the game.

 

:blush:

Let me fix that for you:

 

"Point for point, DCA are the best damage-output CC unit in the game."

 

They are not, however, the best CC unit for survivability, nor are they the best CC unit for mobility; to make a generalized statement such as "X is the best unit for Y" without taking into account all of the factors affecting their tactical application on the board, and to pass that statement off as the absolute truth, does your B&C brothers and sisters a disservice.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is why I find these sorts of posts useless...

 

A smart opponent will deny them the charge or set them up with a bait unit

 

Not necessarily. Especially if the DCA don't lose their ride.

 

 

Of course as you love to dissuade anything counter to your opinion.

 

G :rolleyes:

[Gentlemanloser]

Only when the arguement is useless or invalid.

 

Which 'my perfect move' versus 'your perfect move' is.