Grey Knights in CC

[stephane4985]

"Point for point, DCA are the best damage-output CC unit in the game."

 

+Infinity

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Only when the arguement is useless or invalid.

 

Which 'my perfect move' versus 'your perfect move' is.

 

In your mind of course.

 

G :lol:

[breng77]

breng is spot on; every unit will be the best at a particular role on the table.

 

It would be a very interesting study to see by the numbers which units in the game are point for point the best at specific roles on the battlefield.

 

DCA are actually relatively survivable in CC due to invul save + high I, but only if they can do enough damage to limit the attacks back.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Also remember they have problems versus certain units in melee such as dreads. To me the best melee unit would be able to destroy anything.

 

G :lol:

[Warp Angel]

Late to the thread:

 

DCA have a different role from Paladins. They are "Hunters". A unit that can be absolutely game breaking if not dealt with, and requires enemy attention to keep them from fulfilling their primary purpose of killing squishy things not mechanized. But they die easily and might end up doing nothing offensively. Although, this fulfills the secondary purpose of the Hunter, which is to divert attention away from your other units. Killhammer. Everything dies. Hunters faster than everything else.

 

Paladins and other GK units have different roles. The Paladins especially are "Killers". They're darn near unstoppable and are effective at a multitude of ranges. The job of a killer is to repeatedly eliminate enemy units from effectiveness and to survive counter attack.

 

The point here is not which is "better", but which role each unit would field as part of an army. And they're very different roles.

[the jeske]

DCA are actually relatively survivable in CC due to invul save + high I, but only if they can do enough damage to limit the attacks back.

what does relative mean . IF we are talking about the best CC unit , the important part is not how many meq it kills[becaues if we do its automaticly not the best hth unit] the important question is how does it get in to hth [as in how fast , how well can it be protected etc] or how does the unit look after it wins assault . The paladins are more surviable then DCA/cru and it is not just because they are multi wound and +2sv . no they are better at hth because few shots hit them , fewer of them die and if fewer of them die more of them make it in to hth .And if more of them make it in to hth , then there is more of them left after the assault ended . DCA against many armies [doesnt even require an army its enough if there is a flamer or some bolters] are one shot units . Against death stars this is awesome , because after they kill a 700pts unit , even if they are all dead or just 1-2 left alive the opponent doesnt realy have an army to play with . The problems start when the opposing army is not made out of a death star unit and some support . Losing 5-6 dudes and killing a 6 man unit of honorguard/terminators and leaving the HQ with 1-2 wounds is good . wiping out a tactical/GHGK/chaos unit and losing the half the squad because they dont have frags is not a good trade and no it dont mean just points , most armies will work if they lose a troop unit a GK who took DCA/cru did big investments important to how the army plays.for example like not having 2 GK HQs .

Paladins can also do more stuff DCA can not do[other then opening transports something I already mentioned , to charge a DCA/cru unit needs range support] , for example multi charge . A pala unit to be wiped out has to be attacked by 2-3 squads and 2HQs , then it dies[not without killing stuff] . A DCA squad has problem with 2 , they are awesome one on one , but one on one doesnt happen unless someone plays a special scenario just for that .

 

 

 

 

They are not, however, the best CC unit for survivability, nor are they the best CC unit for mobility; to make a generalized statement such as "X is the best unit for Y" without taking into account all of the factors affecting their tactical application on the board, and to pass that statement off as the absolute truth, does your B&C brothers and sisters a disservice.

true . 3 fex in hth are stopable by mass force weapon from GK and that is more or less it . The problem is that it is practicly impossible to get them in to hth range.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those are all very good points jeske.

 

G :D

[Gentlemanloser]

A pala unit to be wiped out has to be attacked by 2-3 squads and 2HQs , then it dies[not without killing stuff] . A DCA squad has problem with 2

 

Well, you're looking at 550+ points to 180...

 

I'd be shocked if it wasn't the case...

[the jeske]

its not 180 . 180 of DCA/cru is a dead unit that never got in to hth . First you have to buy a INQ . options are xeno for granades or termi/psycannon one to be able to even pick them up . then you have to buy them a transport . In a rhino they have a 1 turn down time on charge and well it is av11 rhino , a transport poping which armies specialized in 5th because it is the 5th . Only other options is a LR or a SR. So while you are right they do not cost like 10 paladins , saying that they cost 180 is also not true.

+ Do not compare units in a void , DCA/cru dont just auto charge on turn one out of the thin air . Unless your opponent is not totaly incompetant [or has an army that is very weak] DCA being glass cannon [which imo is not cheap as some like to think it is] do not kill enough against non death star builds . Taking them unless someone take them in pairs on runs them like a double death start and/or supports them with a cortez based build they do not work . Paladins work in any build . they work in mecha , they work in draigo wing[duh] they work in crow wing[2 psyanons + counter units] they work in cortez builds [same as crow] . they have more utility , are more survivable can do more turns of hth till finaly dead [and they are not just hth unlike DCA/cru units] . But what is realy important . they dont die because a flamer hit them [specialy in the case of the only DCA unit some people proposed here] or because they dont have frags.

[Gentlemanloser]

So what if you need an Inq? Every army needs a HQ as a compulsory choice. That has *no* bearing here.

 

And whether your DCA live to CC all depends on;

 

Your army build.

Your skill

Your opponents skill.

 

It's 550+ versus 180.

 

Anything else is obfuscating the comparison.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You said the exact opposite earlier.

 

G :D

[Drachnon]

I think DCA are a good close combat unit, no doubt about it. However I wouldn't say they are a must have unit for every arm.

Their large amount of high I power weapon attacks is pretty insane for their price and the 5+ inv is really awesome as well. But personally I don't field them because I find them lacking in ranged combat abilities, even though I pretty much always field an inquisitor. Mostly because I like having a lot of scoring units (without coteaz they sadly are not) and also because their lack of ranged weaponry (giving up those storm bolters is really hard for me).

[Gentlemanloser]

You said the exact opposite earlier.

 

What?

[breng77]

I will agree that dca don't fit every build, neither do paladins or any unit really. You buy units for a purpose. I said before that dca are mostly for counter charge and then mostly in cotaez builds. Paladins while strong really require either attached characters or large squads to be a threat to other elite cc units. I play 5 man squads a lot and while a solid unit the rarely kill much in cc