Facing a Primarch - How Could They Survive!

[kabouri]

Hello guys,

 

First of all, forgive me if I make some mistakes but English are not my language. I have being reading the HH series from the beginning and ofc the forums here. I really enjoy it because I learned many things and enjoyed even more the wonderful 40k universe.

So I decided to post here and ask your wisdom/opinion about a question I had from the beginning, reading about the battle on istvan III. At some point Angron goes on the planet eager to start doing what he likes best…. Killing, slaughtering….etc.

On the side of the loyalist marines there is no primarch, so not a single warrior capable of defeating a Primarch in one on one combat and especially a psychotic killer like Angron.

My question then is, how is it possible a small Astartes force with no support, facing huge numbers of Astartes, who enjoy full orbital and planetary superiority, titans and endless ammunition and leaded to battle by a Primarch could survive that long. In many case we see a Primarch killing enemy Astartes easily and in droves, almost unstoppable. I had the feeling that by the time Angron began fighting the battle would be over in a matter of hours.

 

 

Am I missing something here ?

 

Thank you all in advance

[Olis]

War is never straightforward in terms of numbers or attrition and, let's face it, Angron couldn't have killed them all one after another - some of them would have thought discretion the better part of valour and actively tried to avoid him. But their numbers weren't exactly small, we are talking veteran Terran legionnaires from multiple legions. They would have made it a hard fight for anyone. That said, the Isstvan III loyalists didn't last very long, granted more than a few hours but still, not too long. Horus had other matters to attend, after all.

[kabouri]

Well,

Thank you for your reply. Yes it seems logical, you are correct. Speaking about numbers, are there any sources listing the manpower of the loyalists and the traitors actually involved in Istvan III ?

[Olis]

I shouldn't really provide information that comes from Lexicanum but I can't find any other source atm. The answer is a few hundred loyalists versus an undisclosed number of traitors (mostly World Eaters).

[Greyall]

It was a question of time, I'd say, Angron couldn't reach them all. That being said, there were still a good few loyalists when the Primarch touched down, and I think it's safe to say that, if Angron had gone in there alone, he would've gotten bruised. Primarchs aren't that impervious, look at Curze in ADB's short story. A power sword goes right through him. It's better for authors to circle around those "1 against hundreds" situations. Angron dug his way out of tons of rubble, killed Eldar warriors as a child and just rammed through a few of his loyalist World Eaters on Isstvan III. Oh, and he also made Tarvitz run for his life.

 

The World Eaters' Primarch is frequently despised or seen with loathe in the Heresy Novels, but I don't think anyone would deny that, even among Primarchs, he is a battlefield monster. He was just somewhere else when the loyalists made their last stand at the Isstvan palace.

[Pulse]

and I think it's safe to say that, if Angron had gone in there alone, he would've gotten bruised.

Replace bruised with killed and you'd have that right.

[Greyall]

Aye, that's likely. Although, with Primarchs you never know what it takes to kill them. I'm still hoping to really know what happened to Dorn on that ship.

[Hrvat]

That said, the Isstvan III loyalists didn't last very long, granted more than a few hours but still, not too long. Horus had other matters to attend, after all.

 

The battle lasted several weeks. I will have to find the exact quote.

[Olis]

I submit to your more accurate knowledge, brother. Good job I was deliberately vague. :)

[MRCHAOS]

One of the best bits about Angron in that part of the HH

 

 

Its the bit where Loyalist World Eaters charge into the enemy only for them to be seen retreating, which has never been seen before. Only for Angron to come charging over the rubble and slaughter any that he catches.

:wub:

[Snickers]

Well,

Thank you for your reply. Yes it seems logical, you are correct. Speaking about numbers, are there any sources listing the manpower of the loyalists and the traitors actually involved in Istvan III ?

 

On pg. 327 of Galaxy in Flames states the loyalist force consists of 2000 Space Marines, I can only assume they were up againest the rest of their respective legions which would be numbering in the 10000's alltogether.

[Conn Eremon]

On pg. 327 of Galaxy in Flames states the loyalist force consists of 2000 Space Marines, I can only assume they were up againest the rest of their respective legions which would be numbering in the 10000's alltogether.

 

It never does state that the rest of the legions landed. One of the legions was sent off entirely to prepare for what would become the Drop Site Massacre. While Angron probably devoted a large portion of his legion, Mortarion and Horus probably only sent a force they felt large enough, and there was only a token Emperor's Children force.

[2000AD]

Killing a primarch cant be that hard.....

 

One large calibre sniper rifle and...... BINGO!..... head disappears!

[Olis]

Or get him when he's feeling a bit depressed and your name is an allusion to the actor who starred in Apocalypse Now. :whistling:

[Hrvat]

Well,

Thank you for your reply. Yes it seems logical, you are correct. Speaking about numbers, are there any sources listing the manpower of the loyalists and the traitors actually involved in Istvan III ?

 

On pg. 327 of Galaxy in Flames states the loyalist force consists of 2000 Space Marines, I can only assume they were up againest the rest of their respective legions which would be numbering in the 10000's alltogether.

 

Galaxy in Flames was writen with 10k average per legion in mind, as were several other early HH books, but after Raven's flight things went down the road of Collected Visions and 100 000k per legion.

[Billuriye]

Killing a primarch cant be that hard.....

 

One large calibre sniper rifle and...... BINGO!..... head disappears!

 

Assuming primarch stands still like an idiot.

[Greyall]

Or, even worse, anticipates said assassination attempt.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well,

Thank you for your reply. Yes it seems logical, you are correct. Speaking about numbers, are there any sources listing the manpower of the loyalists and the traitors actually involved in Istvan III ?

 

On pg. 327 of Galaxy in Flames states the loyalist force consists of 2000 Space Marines, I can only assume they were up againest the rest of their respective legions which would be numbering in the 10000's alltogether.

 

Galaxy in Flames was writen with 10k average per legion in mind, as were several other early HH books, but after Raven's flight things went down the road of Collected Visions and 100 000k per legion.

 

ummm You guys are WAY way WAY!! off..... On page 155 of Galaxy in Flames, it says that more then 1/3 rd of the Son's of Horus were with Loken on the First Drop. My understanding is the same for the other three Legions, Emperors Children and Death Guard, World Eaters. We are talking around a 100k Astartes were in the Loyalist Landing. They were outnumbered around 3 to 1 after the Virus Attack. on page 319 Loken says he has lost count of the days. They fought the Traitors for Months not weeks. Angron and Mortarian were on the field and they were unable to kill all the Loyalists. For the Final stand Tarvitz had 2k Loyal Astartes with him. That dose not include Loken or any Death Guard Survivors. By the end of that last battle with the Dies Irae only around 100 remained.

 

The Reason the Loyalists were as successful as they were against the odds is because they fought as one. The Traitors came at them one at a time. The Loyalists were also on the Defense and had a advantage of ground. The Loyalists also WANTED it more. Oh and don't forget that the Emperor Protects....

[Sons of Horus]

IIRC the battle lasted a few months. I think I also recall someone stating that there were 2,000 Luna Wolves that survived the initial bombardment (I guess it was 2,000 loyalists total, my mistake).

[Týr]

Well,

Thank you for your reply. Yes it seems logical, you are correct. Speaking about numbers, are there any sources listing the manpower of the loyalists and the traitors actually involved in Istvan III ?

 

On pg. 327 of Galaxy in Flames states the loyalist force consists of 2000 Space Marines, I can only assume they were up againest the rest of their respective legions which would be numbering in the 10000's alltogether.

 

Galaxy in Flames was writen with 10k average per legion in mind, as were several other early HH books, but after Raven's flight things went down the road of Collected Visions and 100 000k per legion.

 

ummm You guys are WAY way WAY!! off..... On page 155 of Galaxy in Flames, it says that more then 1/3 rd of the Son's of Horus were with Loken on the First Drop. My understanding is the same for the other three Legions, Emperors Children and Death Guard, World Eaters. We are talking around a 100k Astartes were in the Loyalist Landing. They were outnumbered around 3 to 1 after the Virus Attack. on page 319 Loken says he has lost count of the days. They fought the Traitors for Months not weeks. Angron and Mortarian were on the field and they were unable to kill all the Loyalists. For the Final stand Tarvitz had 2k Loyal Astartes with him. That dose not include Loken or any Death Guard Survivors. By the end of that last battle with the Dies Irae only around 100 remained.

 

The Reason the Loyalists were as successful as they were against the odds is because they fought as one. The Traitors came at them one at a time. The Loyalists were also on the Defense and had a advantage of ground. The Loyalists also WANTED it more. Oh and don't forget that the Emperor Protects....

 

I think the numbers in any Ben Counter book shouldn't be taken for granted. His works dosen't live up to the HH standard of Abnett, MacNeil and Bowden. And in my opinion the details are a bit sketchy in his books.

I think the only certain thing to say about this book is, that there were some thousand loyalists against a portion of the traitor legions. And that each legion has 100k members standard. The rest I will leave to speculation.

I have a really hard time to belive that 1/3 of each traitor legion was lost at Isstvan III. If 1/10 of each legion was lost it would make much more sense.

[Malatox]

Remember, even if the Legions dropped a 3rd each, think about how many were killed in the initial Virus Bombing... I could believe that only 2000 survived that and made it back to an area to work together.

 

Malatox

[Týr]

Remember, even if the Legions dropped a 3rd each, think about how many were killed in the initial Virus Bombing... I could believe that only 2000 survived that and made it back to an area to work together.

 

Malatox

 

I have no problem either with 2000 marines surviving. But it dosen't make sense to me that each of the four legions involved lost 1/3 in that battle. That number is to high for the then 10k number per legion, as well as the 100k number. It would cripple them to much to make an attack on Terra.

If only about 10k (that's 1/10) of each legion was lost on Isstvan III the battle would still be big enough as described in the book, but the legions would keep their fighting strength.

I don't think the Warmaster, would allow 33% losses as his first move in the war, that should ensure a swift and convincing victory.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Remember, even if the Legions dropped a 3rd each, think about how many were killed in the initial Virus Bombing... I could believe that only 2000 survived that and made it back to an area to work together.

 

Malatox

 

I have no problem either with 2000 marines surviving. But it dosen't make sense to me that each of the four legions involved lost 1/3 in that battle. That number is to high for the then 10k number per legion, as well as the 100k number. It would cripple them to much to make an attack on Terra.

If only about 10k (that's 1/10) of each legion was lost on Isstvan III the battle would still be big enough as described in the book, but the legions would keep their fighting strength.

I don't think the Warmaster, would allow 33% losses as his first move in the war, that should ensure a swift and convincing victory.

pg 401 Galaxy in Flames

Horus turned back to the gnarled globe of Isstvan V and said, "Good. It is no surprise to me that he should be the last to quit the battlefield. So what is the butchers bill?"

"We lost a great many in the landings and more then a few in the palace," replied Maloghurst. "The Emperor's Children and Death Guard were similarly mauled. The World Eater lost the most. They are barely above half strength"

[Greyall]

Back on the "Surviving a Demigod's Rampage" theme, Horus Heresy novels - with some differences - seem to follow a trend regarding Primarchs: not to make them overpowered.

 

So, they'll get "hurt" (Lorgar takes a bolter shot to the helm, Vulkan get psych-blasted by a Farseer and stumbles back, The Lion is almost overpowered by a tentacled daemonic entity [he seemed too powerless, IMO], Horus is stabbed by a Possessed, Fulgrim gets punched by a Wraithlord and Angron is burried under rubble and presumed dead, even the Emperor was almost throttled by an Ork), which is in tone with one of 40K's rules: "If it bleeds, it can be killed".

 

That being said, those instances are balanced by extraordinary feats that sometimes leave you wondering how the sons of the Emperor were wounded. Lorgar (of all people) beats a Bloodthirster champion, Ferrus Manus drowns what might be a C'Tan, Angron digs through the aforementioned rubble almost unscathed, Horus sustains a shockwave that makes a mess of his marines without flinching. This is the over-the-top side of 40K that makes things like Yarrick beating a greenskin powerhouse believable.

 

Since I want no wall of text, here's what I'm getting at: against 2000 enemies - even Space Marines, one can't outright state a Primarch would [just] lose. Through tactics, guile, psychological warfare or just plain overkilliness, victory is a possibility for the gene-sires. I mean, they're the focus of any battle. Look at Corax, he was piled on for the whole battle of Isstvan V, so overwhelming numbers is nothing new for them.

 

But I doubt you'd ever see a Primarch going alone against 1000 marines in a HH novel. Odds are too overwhelming, and a victory would seem overpowered. Better to just have them beat the enemy leader or monster.

[Billuriye]

I think 2000 Astartes would make a smoking mess of any Primarch if they are utterly focused and committed and properly armed.