Bjorn's cost effectiveness

[SpacePuppy]

Hey All, given how awesome this forum has been for helping me learn the way of the wolf and develop my army and answer my questions, i think id like to take a stab at starting a really good discussion on just how good Bjorn is and if he is more cost effective than a regular dreadnought/ven dreadnought

 

Bjorn: 270 pts

SW Dreadnought: 105

 

First, we need to outline everything Bjorn has that a regular Dread does not:

 

• +2 Weapon Skills
  +2 Ballistic Skill
  +1 Strength
  +1 Front Armour
  -1 Initiative
  +2 Attacks
  5+ Invulnerable
  Venerable Rule
  Ancient Tactician
  Living Relic
  Cheap Wargear
  

 

Now, we must allocate a point ammount to each of these benefits Bjorn has, then add that ammount to the cost of a regular Dread and if that number is higher than the cost of Bjorn, he is not cost-effective.

 

+2 Weapon/Ballistic Skill: I would say these two benefits are worth 10 points for each bonus, for a total of 40 Points

+1 Strength: If a better result on the to-hit chart is worth 10 then a better result on the to-wound should also be 10 points

+1 Front Armour: A better result on the vehicle chart is probably worth 5 points given what the Extra Armour upgrade is worth

-1 Initiative: Well this sucks, MEQ's hit Bjorn first, nevermind most MC's and big baddies. This sucks and we should -10 points

+2 Attacks: Easily worth 20 points, when compared to the Mark of Khorne for example

5+ Invulnerable Save: Given what the Mark of Tzeentch is worth, but taking into account this is only for rolls of 5 and 6, i'll say this is worth 20 points

Venerable Rule: Potentially good but potentially risky, id say this is worth 10 points as it may save him once every now and then

Ancient Tactician: Easily worth 5 points, ive never thought deployment is a big deal but others disagree

Living Relic: The most enigmatic rule i think in the SW codex. I play mostly objectives and would use Bjorn as a weapons platform on my edge of the board, meaning if he dies it's an easy objective for my guys. Others completely disagree so i'll give this + or - 15 points.

Cheap Wargear: Free heavy flamer and plasma cannon and Wolf Tail Talisman is worth 30 points

 

 

 

MathHammer time:

105

+40

+10

+5

+20

+20

+10

+5

+30

+/-15

-10 =

235-250 points

 

Given my math and opinions about what everything Bjorn is given is worth, it would appear he is not a cost effective model coming in at 35-20 points more expensive than he should be.

 

This does not take into account however the fact that regular dread's CANNOT have some of these upgrades, so perhaps the exclusivity makes these powers and upgrades worth more than i have calculated. But, i would like to hear what you think; did i overbudget or underbudget what each of his benefits should be worth?

 

What is your opinion on how much he is really worth?

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I played him in a tournament once and I would say that independent of what type of army you play, Bjorn is too expensive and there are cheaper models that can fulfill a more useful role.

 

For example: A plasma cannon is all nice and well on paper, but once you start taking into account cover, it isn't all that great (this is my opinion only though, and there are others who love plasma cannons so this point is debatable at best).

 

Not having a drop pod and being a walker makes is CC abilities situational at best (I only got to use them once against a very assaulty orc biker army where he was useful - very much so in fact - but ork biker armies aren't commonly seen as competitive enough to take to a tournament. Great fun to play against though). So he is basically restricted to being fire support and for that he simply does not have enough firepower (I'd much rather have a land raider or two predators for that price, thank you).

 

In fact, I think that his most useful ability is actually that when he's destroyed that he gives you another objective (and perhaps being a fire magnet because he is disproportionately scary and potentially draws fire away from your armour). Being an extra objective is invaluable when playing against leafblower guard (or any guard, really) because to win, all you need to do is get him exploded and then dig in and hope you get lucky with cover saves and pray that the game ends in turn 5.

 

Both these uses (fire magnet and extra objective) are supremely unfluffy. Its just disrespectful to use the only man who knew Leman Russ personally to draw fire away from your tanks. And if a wolf lord gets him blown up just to win a battle, he'll probably have another thing coming once the big cheese hears about it.

 

Using the way you added up his point costs probably does not actually give a proper idea of whether he is worth it as you took different pieces of equipment from different codices for comparison, and equipment and upgrades are priced in context (for example a 4+ save in one codex might be worth less than the same save in another due to internal balance considerations).

 

I think he's worth about 200 points, give or take a few. And he needs the option for a drop pod. Otherwise a venerable dreadnought can fulfil much the same role without the drastic increase in points and the risk of dropping an objective where you can't get to it. And a venerable dreadnought can be replaced by a normal dread without much loss in efficiency so ultimately the things that Bjorn can do that absolutely cannot be done by a normal dreadnought come at too high a price.

[SpacePuppy]

Indeed, the difficulty does come in trying to decide if an invul save for SW is the same as for CSM, but we have to try.

 

I agree with you that part of his usefulness is as a distraction and i too worry because id like to play as close to the fluff as possible

[Wulfebane]

I think his -1 to Initiative is appropriate. Given the lore, Bjorn (being the oldest known living SW) is roused from hibernation very rarely, and so his thought processes likely take longer to "warm up" likely making his reactions slower.

[Valerian]

I think his -1 to Initiative is appropriate. Given the lore, Bjorn (being the oldest known living SW) is roused from hibernation very rarely, and so his thought processes likely take longer to "warm up" likely making his reactions slower.

 

It might be appropriate for the fluff, but almost anything can be rationalized, depending upon how you spin it. In game terms, however, it really sucks to go after other Walkers that are also hitting with S10 (and similar opponents). It also sucks to not have an in-codex means of delivery (i.e. not having to use a ForgeWorld rules Lucius Pod).

 

Either way, the results are the same, 270 points are a lot to pay for what you get, especially when a lot of those points are paying for close combat power that you won't get to use unless the enemy unwisely comes within striking distance.

 

It is also frustrating that he's the only one that sits in our HQ selections, of which we have plenty, at 4, while regular Ven Dreads and Dreads reside in the Elite slot, and competes with units like Lone Wolves, Wolf Guard, and Wolf Scouts, for inclusion. I really enjoyed the 3rd Edition codex with our HQ Ven Dreads, and almost always used my Bjorn counts-as. Now, I have to completely redo my basic list just to fit one in.

 

I want to use Bjorn (have both the original metal model and the new Forgeworld model ready to go), but so far, I just haven't been able to justify it.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Arez]

I want to use Bjorn (have both the original metal model and the new Forgeworld model ready to go), but so far, I just haven't been able to justify it.

Is it the converted one you were talking about?

[Valerian]

I want to use Bjorn (have both the original metal model and the new Forgeworld model ready to go), but so far, I just haven't been able to justify it.

Is it the converted one you were talking about?

 

No, just this guy. Not converted, just the stock FW one with a Plasma Cannon. I don't have a photo of mine up on the CPU yet.

 

V

[Quillen]

In all honesty you can get 2 dreads for the price of him. So he is just not worth it. And the Int 3 is so stupid. And the +1 strength means nothing cause he has a Dreadnought CCW. If they made it like the old Bjorn where he had a Lightning claw with strength 7 and could reroll wounds it would be much better, but he would stil be over priced.

[norau]

I agree that he is not cost effective, so if you want to super-duper-tune your list he is a no-go.

 

I tried Bjorn for a 1750-tournament and found him fun to play, partly because none of my opponents had played against him before. In one game I told my opponent three times during deployment that he becomes an extra objective if he gets destroyed (capture & controll), and two more times when he destroyed him in turn 5. Yet he forgot it in turn 6, and I managed a draw (he deepstruck a landraider on my objective, in a ruin, on turn 4...).

 

Three times he got in close combat, and thanks to his many attacks and his 5+ ward he managed to destroy two dreadnoughts in two turns, despite his I3. And anything with a lower initiative were hammered before they could strike.

 

Also, he can take an awfull amount of pain before he goes. 61 lascannon shots with WS4 being the prime example. That's 61 shots not on your Grey Hunters Rhino's, or whatever. The only time he got killed for me was by the gentle touch of a multimelta.

 

You didn't mention on Living Relic that SW becomes fearless if he's killed, but this wouldn't change much on your sum (certainly not +25 pts).

 

I think he's worth maybe 220 pts. That means I'm 50 pts behind when I use him. For me, it's worth it for the fun. If I'm playing to win a tournament, he's not worth it.

[Rikochet]

A standard dread is 105 pts and a venerable is 165.

The difference being +1 BS/WS (20 pts total according to you) and Venerability, that leaves venerable at a cost of 40 pts.

 

Which means bjorn is worth 265-280 pts by the OPs count standard.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

Which means bjorn is worth 265-280 pts by the OPs count standard.

 

Yes, and perhaps his combination of special rules is worth this many points. The problem is that it is such a chaotic mix of nice gizmos thrown onto one model (such as good melee stats but no drop pod) that one nice rule takes out the next shiny gadget (or in the case the aforementioned lack of options makes it horribly hard to take advantage of his rules). A bit like a godhammer pattern landraider, really - the unit inside makes you want to drive him headlong into the enemy, but that reduces all those twin linked lascannons to being about as useful as nipples on a breastplate. Having a tank brimming with weapons, the best armor values in the game AND transport capacity may very well be worth 250 points but if you only get to use one third of his capabilities at any one time, some may, with good reason, say that they'd rather invest elsewhere, and who can blame them?

[frostclaw222]

The FW dreadnought drop pod was supposed to receive a rules update that basically said "any dreadnought" could use it. So, my question becomes (assuming that update language is valid), if (for, again, a modest fee) you could deepstrike Bjorn instead of making the poor old codger hoof it, would he then be more worth it? Or is it throwing good points after bad?

[Rikochet]

Which means bjorn is worth 265-280 pts by the OPs count standard.

 

Yes, and perhaps his combination of special rules is worth this many points. The problem is that it is such a chaotic mix of nice gizmos thrown onto one model (such as good melee stats but no drop pod) that one nice rule takes out the next shiny gadget (or in the case the aforementioned lack of options makes it horribly hard to take advantage of his rules). A bit like a godhammer pattern landraider, really - the unit inside makes you want to drive him headlong into the enemy, but that reduces all those twin linked lascannons to being about as useful as nipples on a breastplate. Having a tank brimming with weapons, the best armor values in the game AND transport capacity may very well be worth 250 points but if you only get to use one third of his capabilities at any one time, some may, with good reason, say that they'd rather invest elsewhere, and who can blame them?

 

Nipples on a breastplate xD

 

I agree with you there!

[Valerian]

Which means bjorn is worth 265-280 pts by the OPs count standard.

 

Yes, and perhaps his combination of special rules is worth this many points. The problem is that it is such a chaotic mix of nice gizmos thrown onto one model (such as good melee stats but no drop pod) that one nice rule takes out the next shiny gadget (or in the case the aforementioned lack of options makes it horribly hard to take advantage of his rules). A bit like a godhammer pattern landraider, really - the unit inside makes you want to drive him headlong into the enemy, but that reduces all those twin linked lascannons to being about as useful as nipples on a breastplate. Having a tank brimming with weapons, the best armor values in the game AND transport capacity may very well be worth 250 points but if you only get to use one third of his capabilities at any one time, some may, with good reason, say that they'd rather invest elsewhere, and who can blame them?

 

Yep, Bjorn is just like a Techmarine. Give a model cool extra rules and abilities, and you have to increase the price to pay for it all. However, he doesn't get to use all of it in the same game (can't be shooting focused, vehicle repair focused, and close combat focused all at the same time). End result is a Swiss Army knife of a model, that is singularly too expensive to accomplish the thing that you need for him to do within your army. What do you do if you have any concern for efficiency? You look elsewhere for a more reasonably priced unit that is actually suited for the job you have in mind for them to fulfill.

 

The FW dreadnought drop pod was supposed to receive a rules update that basically said "any dreadnought" could use it. So, my question becomes (assuming that update language is valid), if (for, again, a modest fee) you could deepstrike Bjorn instead of making the poor old codger hoof it, would he then be more worth it? Or is it throwing good points after bad?

 

You absolutely can, but only in games that allow Forgeworld rules. There have probably been hundreds of threads in the BnC over the years about this, but most opponents don't appreciate playing against FW stuff, unless they know beforehand and have approved. Throwing Bjorn into a Lucious-pattern Drop Pod in a pick-up game at your LGS isn't going to win you any friends.

 

That's why Bjorn really should have had the option to get a stock Drop Pod as a transport option in the codex.

 

V

[Zynk Kaladin]

For the points you are paying for Bjorn, I don't think he's worth it. Others have given very good reasons, so I won't repeat what they said. However, blowing Bjorn up has been a big mistake for me in the past. In that one move my Space Wolf friend managed to tie the game with that extra objective boost. Looking back, I probably shouldn't have blown it up because he really didn't do much damage for his high point cost for most of the game.

[Wysten]

I personally think that Bojan is completely overpriced for what he offers. I would probably consider him barely a 190 or 200 point model really, considering that makes him almost twice the cost as a typical dread anyways. As he stands, 270 points is a redicious price to pay for a minor upgrade from a Ven dreadnort, and a ven dread is a hard sell. One wouldn't pay for a 270 point character that could die to a single, successful wound, so while he is duriable, a single wound let through makes it a costly investment. Thats why tanks are generally rarely worth more then 100, unless it's really good.

[G. A. K.]

One wouldn't pay for a 270 point character that could die to a single, successful wound, so while he is duriable, a single wound let through makes it a costly investment.

Its a little different but in most games I use him in Ragnar dies on his first wound from instant death but I still like him.

 

Bottom line: The book is full of great options at cheap cost; 10 pts for a wolf banners- really?, 5 pt meltas-or one for free on ten guys. So Bjorn is a point sink but you only bring out his revered form in time of dire need and great threat. He isn't your average Dread so you can't compare him in those terms. He's fluffy and cool, with unique abilities not the least of which is being able to be deployed at mid-field during Dawn of War. Whats that worth to you?

I don't use him but thats only cuz I don't use any dreads now to use more grey hunters.

 

G

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

So Bjorn is a point sink but you only bring out his revered form in time of dire need and great threat. He isn't your average Dread so you can't compare him in those terms. He's fluffy and cool, with unique abilities not the least of which is being able to be deployed at mid-field during Dawn of War.

 

Thing is, for being someone who is expected to solve problems the whole chapter can't solve on its own, he is - and there is no other way of putting this - infuriatingly useless. If you could field him for free in a campaign, say, if the Fang itself was threatened or some similar scenario - sure, why not. But paying points for him? nope. Not gonna happen. And its really only fluffy to use Bjorn when you play an apocalypse game against the thousand sons (or have a footy grand final against dark angels) because I don't think he'd be getting out of bed for anything less than that.

[Wysten]

One wouldn't pay for a 270 point character that could die to a single, successful wound, so while he is duriable, a single wound let through makes it a costly investment.

Its a little different but in most games I use him in Ragnar dies on his first wound from instant death but I still like him.

 

Bottom line: The book is full of great options at cheap cost; 10 pts for a wolf banners- really?, 5 pt meltas-or one for free on ten guys. So Bjorn is a point sink but you only bring out his revered form in time of dire need and great threat. He isn't your average Dread so you can't compare him in those terms. He's fluffy and cool, with unique abilities not the least of which is being able to be deployed at mid-field during Dawn of War. Whats that worth to you?

I don't use him but thats only cuz I don't use any dreads now to use more grey hunters.

 

G

Aye, it is as you said, Ragnar is different in that he has 3 wounds, so while he may not always use them, against your typical rank and file guy, and some frail damage dealers, he will really rip through people.

 

While you do kind of have a point, its as you say. You prefer to use Grey Hunters, I mean, they do what they say on the tin. Same with Thunderwolf, 180 for 3 wolves and a hammer or 210 to include one stormsheild sounds confortable. I mean, you have 3 wounds before anything really happens, and 5 wounds before you lose the smiting tool. With Bjorn, you have a decently armoured tank that is solid in melee but has ok shooting at best (one accurate plasma plate is the best you can expect) and not too hard to nerf either and has one good ability (being an objective) one really bad (giving out 1D3 kill points) and something else that doesn't really change space wolves at all.

 

I mean, he's an awesome guy fluffwise but I don't feel his ruleset really reflects that, not when I can get a dread with saga of mejesticy and have a simlar, inspiring effect.

[Wulf Vengis]

Your all missing the point of Bjorn though. Bjorn is meant to be used as an anti-infantry slaughter house. I use him somewhat frequently. Ive had nothing but good experiences with him against Nids, Orks, PA and Demons. The trick is to either get him on an objective or just hunt the enemy infantry.

[Sol622]

One thing I really Like about him is that in high point games he is a dread that doesn't take an elite slot.

 

At 2500 points I can concidering running him as my 4th Hq (other three are Rp's) since my elite slots are taken up by double scouts and wolf guard.

 

Also, anyone who plays scouts knows that re rolling to go first is nice.......

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

Your all missing the point of Bjorn though. Bjorn is meant to be used as an anti-infantry slaughter house.

 

Possibly... but only as long as there are no meltas in the units he's supposed to slaugher, or meltabombs, or chainfists, or close by monstrous creatures that'll make short work of Bjorn.

 

And while he isn't bad, neither are the squad of grey hunters and a half that you can buy for the same points, and they won't go down to a single lucky shot.

[Wulf Vengis]

The Venerable reroll combined with his 5++ is rather helpful against thpse meltas, and as for Chainfists they strike at Init 1 while Bjorn hits the init 3 giving him the upperhand against close combat infantry. If you plan his moves right those meltas meltas hopefully wont even get a shot. Although I have to admit that 12 years of playing have given me a pretty good eye for determining 6 inches without a measuring device. This may have something to do with my Bjorn success as I can pretty much look at the table and tell which units will be in range and how soon, allowing me to know when to move him and how far, as well as knowing when to have him fire and when to run him.

[Karack Blackstone]

Bjorn has the same standard weapons loadout as an anti-infantry Dread, as has been said. My biggest problem however with Bjorn is that as built normally, he cannot gain extra armor. I always put EA on my anti-infantry Dreads as it means they can always move. I still use him, however it seems utterly silly to only have half the pen table available to reroll (not wanting 4+). Even Venerable is slightly less than stellar, as no matter what things tend to favor losing an effectively single wound model that costs 270 points base.

 

The only way I run him is Plasma Cannon and normal otherwise. The HF is nice, however if he had EA available, I'd always find the extra points needed to take it; any footslogging anti-infantry Dread needs it. Considering Bjorn isn't able to really hang back and make good use of his BS 6 on any other weapon option, there's no real reason to take the TLLC (as is known; rerolls wasted) and the AC is nice, however the AP and high BS make Bjorn the perfect platform for a non-overheating PC.

[Iacton Qruze]

I love Bjorn, use him in every game I've played for the past 6 months. I'm thinking of dropping the TLLC for the AC, but I'm still giving it some time for a proper assessment.

 

I agree he's a little pricier than he should be, and that the DCCW should really be more like a BA Blood Talon with his S7.

 

I don't use him as a fire magnet (That goes to the LR) and I've only seen him die twice.

 

You just have to decide how you'll use him, and plan accordingly; I wanted a third dreadnought in an army that already has an Iron Priest in it, so he fit the bill.

 

The main thing I'm seeing is a distinct underestimation of his extra point of front armor; his place is in CC - krak grenades can't even hurt him, and standard SM power fists need a 5 to glance, after he unloads a bunch of attacks in their face. I've routinely carved through Terminator assault squads, Death Co, and a myriad of other anti-infantry units with him.

 

I think the key is making sure you've got something bigger than him nearby, something that looks scarier to your enemy. That lets him worry a bit less about those "lucky shots" that people have trouble with.