Are the Consecrators merely just Dark Angels?

[Candleshoes]

A suppose a very hypothetical question, are the Consecrators merely just the Dark Angels?

 

We know that the Rock is the largest known classification of space transport in the Imperium, the home of the 1st Legion.

We know that it could hold, house and create far more astartes than just the 1,000 Chapter cap.

We know that being the oldest legion, with the oldest technology, The Rock would be the most likely place that houses most, if not all the pre-heresy and crusade pattern arms and armor.

We know there exists elements of a "Legion" mentality between the Unforgiven successor chapters and the Dark Angels.

 

Is it too far of a stretch to assume that there are far more than 1,000 Dark Angels on the Rock, and if there are (say many times over that amount), is it such a stretch to say that in times where the parent chapter is too far extended, multiple company strength or even a full chapter strength "successors" could arm themselves in the required armor/holy relics and bring the additional needed strength to bear?

 

There is no record of founding and no record of existance for 10,000 years, untill a completely unexpected chapter wide action to put down a "rebellion". Could the Dark Angels (while severely over extended) have learned something about a high profile Fallen and sent the needed reserve strength to take care of it? Could it be signifigant of the Fallen that they are hunting to bring such relics and armor from the crusade in a position to capture or destroy them? It is often mentioned that it could be decades in between trails of the fallen. The only known occurence further to this occurs 30 years later at company level strength, fighting alongside Dark Angel troops.

 

Something to consider I suppose, as everyone always tooks at the Space Wolves and Black Templar as the poster children of rule breaking when it comes to chapter size, could the Dark Angels house the resources and manpower to place themselves in a similair situation.

[dynamicspartan]

While I see what you are trying to convey, I think that the Dark Angels probably are a chapter to equip themselves with newer equipment, but they keep old traditions and rites. The Consecrators on the other hand were probably created as a chapter to keep all the old equipment and memorabilia as a way to remind the Dark Angels and their other successors of their dark past. While the Consecrators could just be a complete reserve chapter or a very secretive chapter, more so than the DA.

[Droma]

Could the rock house and arm more than a single chapters worth of troops? Almost definitely, I'd say it could house and arm around 3-5 as I think the rock is even bigger than the phalanx of the imperial fists. The question is do we really think the dark angels are housing multiple chapters inside of it? No, I don't believe so. They aren't stupid enough to arouse that sort of suspicion about themselves. You don't keep a secret for 10,000 years by doing dumb things that arouse suspicion.

[Grotsmasha]

Could the rock house and arm more than a single chapters worth of troops? Almost definitely, I'd say it could house and arm around 3-5 as I think the rock is even bigger than the phalanx of the imperial fists. The question is do we really think the dark angels are housing multiple chapters inside of it? No, I don't believe so. They aren't stupid enough to arouse that sort of suspicion about themselves. You don't keep a secret for 10,000 years by doing dumb things that arouse suspicion.

 

Who's gunna call them on it? Let alone have evidence to prove it? Whats one more lost Inquisitor.......or Astarte cruiser?

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not likely, but it's not impossible either. It is a cool idea though.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Captain Semper]

A suppose a very hypothetical question, are the Consecrators merely just the Dark Angels?

 

I guess it all boils down to how much you wanna play up the "secret Legion" theme. If you stress it to one end (i.e. it is indeed one secret Legion) then I'd say that all successors are DAs!

 

We know that the Rock is the largest known classification of space transport in the Imperium, the home of the 1st Legion.

We know that it could hold, house and create far more astartes than just the 1,000 Chapter cap.

We know that being the oldest legion, with the oldest technology, The Rock would be the most likely place that houses most, if not all the pre-heresy and crusade pattern arms and armor.

We know there exists elements of a "Legion" mentality between the Unforgiven successor chapters and the Dark Angels.

 

Indeed we do know all these things. I'd actually say it's more than "elements of mentality" though. Inner Circle spanning accross the Successors suggests common chain of command. Now whether this applies to all Successors and all kind of operations is unclear and people make up their own minds. Some (me included) like to believe that DAs are indeed a Legion. This means a fundamental contempt to the Codex Astartes that -if taken at face value- the DAs adhere to (for the most part). On the other side of the spectrum some believe that Successors are mostly independent and the SGM is a figurehead, but cooperate with each other on the hunt of the fallen if the opportunity arises. Current fluff I guess allows for both approaches...

 

Is it too far of a stretch to assume that there are far more than 1,000 Dark Angels on the Rock, and if there are (say many times over that amount), is it such a stretch to say that in times where the parent chapter is too far extended, multiple company strength or even a full chapter strength "successors" could arm themselves in the required armor/holy relics and bring the additional needed strength to bear?

 

No it's not (too far of a stretch). It's perfectly possible. There is a problem though. Chapters cannot pop up out of nowhere. If say the DAs kept many marines on standby and suddenly arm them and throw them into the fray with somewhat different colors and calling them a "successor" other Imperial agencies might say: “wait a minute - when were these guys founded? Who gave permission for that? “. The Disciples of Caliban text shows that the DAs had a hard time commissioning a Chapter on their own accord. Even in the tremendous bureaucracy of the Imperium, SM chapters are not that easily overlooked.

 

There is no record of founding and no record of existance for 10,000 years, untill a completely unexpected chapter wide action to put down a "rebellion". Could the Dark Angels (while severely over extended) have learned something about a high profile Fallen and sent the needed reserve strength to take care of it? Could it be signifigant of the Fallen that they are hunting to bring such relics and armor from the crusade in a position to capture or destroy them? It is often mentioned that it could be decades in between trails of the fallen. The only known occurence further to this occurs 30 years later at company level strength, fighting alongside Dark Angel troops.

 

As Bryan Blair pointed out to me some time ago, Consecrators colors are close (identical?) to RT era Dark Angels colors :)... I guess if DAs could have an explanation ready each time an unregister Successor pops up this could work. Not easy though… The fact that Corwen Quilp is not aware of it doesn't mean the Imperium as a whole is not aware of it. I think it was wise on GW behalf to drop the omniscient out-of-Universe description of the successors and adopt a more in-Universe perspective. That way anything goes...

 

Something to consider I suppose, as everyone always tooks at the Space Wolves and Black Templar as the poster children of rule breaking when it comes to chapter size, could the Dark Angels house the resources and manpower to place themselves in a similair situation.

 

Hahaha, if you really want to play on the secret Legion theme (as do I) you might consider the possibility that DAs are indeed a Legion. Not c. 6,000 of the BTs or I don’t know how many SWs (something south of 10k I’d suspect) but a cool 80-100,000 of us!!!

 

For the Lion! and the hell with the Codex Astartes!

 

Ok this was a bit too much – but hey if it is a secret Legion, it is a secret Legion! :lol:

[Brother Immolator]

No it's not (too far of a stretch). It's perfectly possible. There is a problem though. Chapters cannot pop up out of nowhere. If say the DAs kept many marines on standby and suddenly arm them and throw them into the fray with somewhat different colors and calling them a "successor" other Imperial agencies might say: “wait a minute - when were these guys founded? Who gave permission for that? “. The Disciples of Caliban text shows that the DAs had a hard time commissioning a Chapter on their own accord. Even in the tremendous bureaucracy of the Imperium, SM chapters are not that easily overlooked.

 

Hm...A prudent call,but i am inclined to disagree.The records of the imperium are so well kept and detailed that they would most likely take some centuries to take note.And when they do two things can happen.

 

"Successor chapter?What successor chapter?Your scribes got it wrong,they were elements of the ravenwing but we had to deploy them without bikes".

 

 

OR

 

 

The inquisitor simply disappears due to a warp storm/anomaly/accident/been tossed out of an airlock.Typical DA habits.They cant understand that the inquisition is allergic to green power armor...Sigh:

 

Aside from the funny remarks(or so i think they are funny) there are a lot of chapters that there are no records about them and made appearances out of nowhere.Hell there are chapters that even they dont know who their primarch is!

 

Consider this:If there were any guys with knowledge on how to create new marines and they got the equipment,they could mass produce marine chapters and simply add them to the imperium until they could make an attempt on terra.The records of the adeptus would be so detailed that nobody would notice until its late.

 

EDIT:Matthew if you read this please oh please dont use it.Not that i claim any copyrights but you know its....stupid?Now that i think of it,it might be so stupid that in fact it might be legit.In any cause dont use it...

[puck]

The "Secret Legion" theme is how I view my DAs. I completely agree with the OP and Capt. Semper

[Tengo]

Hahaha, if you really want to play on the secret Legion theme (as do I) you might consider the possibility that DAs are indeed a Legion. Not c. 6,000 of the BTs or I don’t know how many SWs (something south of 10k I’d suspect) but a cool 80-100,000 of us!!!

 

As far as I'm aware, SWs are normally estimated at around 2K.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

i think it would be awesome, but, I think the problem is its not secret enough. Rather, I think the Consecrators are probably based in the Caliban system, at least, thats where Id stick a 1000 Marines with old tech dedicated to hunting fallen and being secretive....I mean, who wants the =I= to visit our home system, they may stumble across something?

[Isiah]

This is a great topic.

 

i think it would be awesome, but, I think the problem is its not secret enough. Rather, I think the Consecrators are probably based in the Caliban system,

 

Or fleet-based – ready to hotfoot it to somewhere at a moments notice... and there are plenty of corners to hide those ships in <_<.

[Brother Degas]

if you really want to play up the single legion and disregard the DA have for terra (not the imperium) you can always view the consecrators as a DA founded unapproved chapter.

 

bare with me on this, the Unforgiven have kept the fact they are a legion and the fallen secret but the extra scrutiny they were placed under when the disciples were created concerned them; why should the first legion answer to administrators and bureaucrats? So in defiance of terra but in order to keep the imperium safe they "over recruited" and developed a new chapter.

 

The key to my random idea is that the unforgiven, do what they think is required to keep the imperium safe (in secret) not what the lords of terra dictate.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

you still have to play within the rules...

 

Breaking the founding rule is...a bad idea, however, it would not go amiss to call in a few 'favours' and get a new chapter during one of the latest foundings I think...

 

You know, Inquisitor X is a mate of the DA and becomes the HLOT for the =I= and the DA call in a favour if he can make one of the new chapters with the Lions' geneseed. This happens and the Consecrators are born.

 

Other option, is the records are falsified by Inquisitor X who investigates rumors of a new chapter that is unsanctioned...

 

DA say, 'yea, they exist, records seem missing though, but they are legit. Anyways you remember that time when...'

Inquisitor X 'yea, I do, ok, chapter is sanctioned, heres the number and records, ill just tell the HLoT that they are.'

DA: 'cheers mate'

[Brother Degas]

breaking the founding rule is a bad idea but it would fit more with the da hubris than the matey matey approach with the inquisition.

 

The way I figure it is that the inquistion is already suspicious of the DA so wont sanction a new successor but the DA being a prideful bunch of psychopaths go it alone, good idea or not.

 

This could be covered up by a stodge of the DA within the inquistion, not the high lord or an actual inquisitor but just some unknown serf with access.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The Inquisition do not oversee the creation of new chapters, thats the HLoT. Anyway, only parts of the =I= are suspicious, the =I= is massive with thousands of Inquisitors each with their own agenda. If it suits one to back the DA or champion them, then yes he/she will. The DA would be willing to use any Inquisitor to their own advantage. Many Inquisitors are not suspicious. probably most, only the one or two who may have stumbled on something they should not have, they get deleted soon enough anyways ala our operatives and spy network.

 

Ive always though the DA would have a spy ring to rival the Alpha's <_< up to and including Inquisitors, and why not High Lords?? Its called political intrigue.

[Brother Degas]

I see your point its just doesnt sit quiet right with me. The DA wouldnt let anyone near who doesnt know about the fallen, the degree of paranoia would be prohibitive.

 

I agree with the spy network, not so much the political intrigue, I think if the DA got a vote they didnt like they either kill everyone involved or ignore it.

[Brother Immolator]

Nobody liked the idea of faulty/missing/lost records eh?It seems you like more a bond type of chapter <_<

 

How about we forged some records!?

[Brother Degas]

Not bond, I just think there's a degree of arrogance to the da that blinds them to a certain degree.

 

Forged records? Why not, who knows what q branch has come up with :cuss

[Brother Kovash]

I've always thought of the Consecrators as former Heresy era Dark Angels who realized they were wrong to turn their backs on the Imperium, and are trying to atone for it now. That would explain their ancient armor and weaponry, as well as their secretive nature.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I see your point its just doesnt sit quiet right with me. The DA wouldnt let anyone near who doesnt know about the fallen, the degree of paranoia would be prohibitive.

 

I agree with the spy network, not so much the political intrigue, I think if the DA got a vote they didnt like they either kill everyone involved or ignore it.

 

I can see your point, too. I just think that the DA would attempt to gain influence in many areas of Imperial life, purely to keep heat of themselves, lots of allies if you will. They are paranoid, and thats what makes them so good at what they do, they are so paranoid they will use any advantage, including an ambitious Inquisitor or a member of the Ecclesiasy. Indeed, their own contact may not be an Astartes but another, higher, member of the spy network (who is, in reality, a chapter serf but no one knows of the connection) who runs the local intelligence/manipulation. The DA would, I feel, get involved purely to have allies to ward away investigation into them/traitor astartes and to gain resources when/as they need it.

 

10,000 years is plenty of time to build up a really good network of spies, informants, assassins, agents etc. Not that I want this translated onto the tabletop, keep that for the Alpha's but it makes for awesome background stuff

[Phoebus]

I'm all about the Dark Angels as a "Secret Legion" - with numbers to rival those they possessed during the Great Crusade, at that (per Captain Semper).

 

Think about it... even if we assumed that ONLY the Dark Angels and the three named Successors (Absolution, Redemption, Vengeance) made it through the Heresy, if just ONE Dark Angels Chapter was created per Founding, you would have a "Secret Legion" with a nominal fighting strength of 30,000+ Astartes. And somehow, I seriously doubt that only 4,000 Dark Angels made it through the Heresy and the destruction of Caliban.

 

The above is one of the reasons I don't think the Dark Angels are the jerks everyone makes them out to be. Each and every Supreme Grand Master has been in more-or-less covert possession of ridiculous amounts of power, thanks to even just tacit command of thousands (and now tens of thousands, perhaps even a hundred thousand) Astartes. Without ever overtly employing said power, he could make life miserable for pretty much any faction. But we never see this sort of underhandedness even hinted at in the various Codices of the Dark Angels. They're just worried about the shame that Luther and their traitor brothers earned for them.

[Tengo]

Forged records? Why not, who knows what q branch has come up with :P

 

Invisibility robes, amphibious bikes and bolt pistols with a concealed pen, didn't you get the memo?

[Brother Immolator]

Forged records? Why not, who knows what q branch has come up with :)

 

Invisibility robes, amphibious bikes and bolt pistols with a concealed pen, didn't you get the memo?

 

Matthew is that you?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I see your point its just doesnt sit quiet right with me. The DA wouldnt let anyone near who doesnt know about the fallen, the degree of paranoia would be prohibitive.

 

I agree with the spy network, not so much the political intrigue, I think if the DA got a vote they didnt like they either kill everyone involved or ignore it.

Well, chapter serfs are inducted into the chapter cult... ;)

[Grimdarkness]

Considering the space sharks where "lost" until the badad war the Consecrators being seen a couple times only means little.

 

As for the equipment maybe a SGM got tired of it clattering up the rock and decided to put it to use.

[Phoebus]

To "concecrate" means to dedicate something to a holy purpose. You don't concecrate something over and over. Just once.

 

Others have mentioned that it doesn't make much sense that the Dark Angels Legion would just give away all their old stuff to just one of their Chapters. It goes against Astartes sentiments. Where did all that stuff come from, then?

 

My take:

1. The Dark Angels and their Successors hold the Hunt for the Fallen as their highest priority.

2. The Fallen are all Traitors from the time of the Horus Heresy.

3. Ergo, the Fallen own a lot of old stuff.

4. The Concecrators, perhaps notoriously/heretically, do not want to see the legacy of their Legion (wargear, power armour, etc.) be shamed like that.

5. In cases where said wargear is not corrupted/tainted by Chaos, the Concecrators concecrate that equipment, re-dedicating it to the service of the Imperium and of the Primarch.

 

Thoughts?