Are the Consecrators merely just Dark Angels?

[Brother Immolator]

4. The Concecrators, perhaps notoriously/heretically, do not want to see the legacy of their Legion (wargear, power armour, etc.) be shamed like that.

5. In cases where said wargear is not corrupted/tainted by Chaos, the Concecrators concecrate that equipment, re-dedicating it to the service of the Imperium and of the Primarch.

 

Thoughts?

 

Heretically?Hm...tell that to Logan and his chaos champion axe.Heresy unless it is all out warship of chaos is been defined by the inquisition.Thereby he who can bully the inquisition is no heretic.Thereby the Unforgiven and SW are not heretics.See what i did there?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

To "concecrate" means to dedicate something to a holy purpose. You don't concecrate something over and over. Just once.

 

Others have mentioned that it doesn't make much sense that the Dark Angels Legion would just give away all their old stuff to just one of their Chapters. It goes against Astartes sentiments. Where did all that stuff come from, then?

 

My take:

1. The Dark Angels and their Successors hold the Hunt for the Fallen as their highest priority.

2. The Fallen are all Traitors from the time of the Horus Heresy.

3. Ergo, the Fallen own a lot of old stuff.

4. The Concecrators, perhaps notoriously/heretically, do not want to see the legacy of their Legion (wargear, power armour, etc.) be shamed like that.

5. In cases where said wargear is not corrupted/tainted by Chaos, the Concecrators concecrate that equipment, re-dedicating it to the service of the Imperium and of the Primarch.

 

Thoughts?

My thought: GW, hire this man.

[Candleshoes]

Interesting thought, the successor chapter is armed with the consecrated armor and weapons of the last 10,000 years of fallen... it definitely is possible. The numbers aren't too off to assume close to 1,000ish in that time.

[krewl]

From the text on page 73 in the codex it plainly states;

 

"When the Space Marine Legions were split into Chapters after the Horus Heresy, it is written in the few surviving histories that the Dark Angels sired at least 3 Chapters."

 

And further on;

 

"..more of these so-called 'Successors' are said to exist"

 

"Certainly more where created then are recorded, and all of these Chapters are extant to this day"

 

We know of;

 

Dark Angels

Angels of Vengeance

Angels of Redemption

Angels of Absolution

Guardians of the Covenant

Disciples of Caliban

The Consecrators

 

These 7 are a given, so that would indicate a lower number of atleast 7.000 Dark Angels in the "Legion" like structure.

The text leaves plenty of room for us to play with, including the ambiguity it creates with the so-called 'Successors' statement that points to something like "We are not so sure they really split off as they should...."

 

And several statements that indicate, much is lost, there could be more, we don't really know.

 

Looking at for example the consecrator text, it could very well be that these marines who have been "almost entirely absent from the histories of the Imperium" are what the topic starter suggested and they are just stockpiled gear (Of which we have been noted to have a lot as the oldest legion etc...) combined with a slightly higher rate of recruitment then documents would have made you think occured. 10.000 years is a lot of time for a slight bookkeeping error to ammount to plenty of "Bonus Marines".

 

In short, it is not certain, but very much possible that the DA "created" their own chapter(s), the texts certain leave a wide open gaping hole for it to nicely fit in.

 

(You will note that I also am of the opinion that DA hold to the older structures of before the heresy, after all, Azrael is not the Supreme Grand Master for nothing :jaw: )

[Phoebus]

I don't know that the Dark Angels created their own Chapters, per se. That smacks a bit too much of dangerous hubris... and runs contrary to the fluff of the Disciples of Caliban (I think).

 

I think, on the other hand, that the High Lords of Terra aren't terribly stupid, and read the writing on the wall: the fact that they have ordered few, if any, subsequent Foundings (obviously the Disciples of Caliban qualify that at least ONE has been ordered since M31) - despite the Dark Angels' Gene-seed being one of the purest and least degraded (Codex: Dark Angels, pg 18) - would indicate that they grew wise to the fact that there was some "Secret Legion" action going on between the Supreme Grand Master and the Successors. It probably has never been politically tenable to take overt action against a First Founding Chapter and thousands (tens of thousands?) of other, allied, Astartes. The High Lords have thus opted to contain the damage already done, instead... and won't take direct action so long as the (Secret) First Legion does not abuse the power they (secretly) gathered unto themselves in contravention to the reforms of the Codex Astartes.

 

Well, that, or it could just be the rumors of them occasionally ditching campaigns at critical junctures to pursue an agenda "to which they give priority even higher than service to the Emperor himself."

 

Personally, I like the former one, though. :D

[Brother Degas]

Sounds good Phoebus but the DoC were requested by the SGM at the time.

 

I dont think the LoHT have any direct evidence about the secret legion, just rumors and a suspicions about the unforgiven.

[Captain Semper]

I don't know that the Dark Angels created their own Chapters, per se. That smacks a bit too much of dangerous hubris... and runs contrary to the fluff of the Disciples of Caliban (I think).

 

I think, on the other hand, that the High Lords of Terra aren't terribly stupid, and read the writing on the wall: the fact that they have ordered few, if any, subsequent Foundings (obviously the Disciples of Caliban qualify that at least ONE has been ordered since M31) - despite the Dark Angels' Gene-seed being one of the purest and least degraded (Codex: Dark Angels, pg 18) - would indicate that they grew wise to the fact that there was some "Secret Legion" action going on between the Supreme Grand Master and the Successors. It probably has never been politically tenable to take overt action against a First Founding Chapter and thousands (tens of thousands?) of other, allied, Astartes. The High Lords have thus opted to contain the damage already done, instead... and won't take direct action so long as the (Secret) First Legion does not abuse the power they (secretly) gathered unto themselves in contravention to the reforms of the Codex Astartes.

 

Well, that, or it could just be the rumors of them occasionally ditching campaigns at critical junctures to pursue an agenda "to which they give priority even higher than service to the Emperor himself."

 

Personally, I like the former one, though. :cuss

 

Oh, c'mon! You really think the High Lords are on to us? This is supposed to be one of the most jealously guarded secrets. Obviously the request for the creation of the Disciples was odd, but leading the High Lords to the conclusion that there is a secret Legion? Nah!

 

Why would they take overt action anyway? Just because a SGM asked them to create a Chapter? (btw he did ask - he really needed the Disciples to be legit, so their founding is well documented and authorised and everything). I'm sure Anaziel would have given plausible reasons as to why the Disciples needed to be created. To ask was odd. To approve? probably not.

 

And if the High Lords have taken overt action every time a Chapter behaved oddly, then I can think of 2-3 BA successors that would be in line for chastisement before they even considered the DAs. Not including the Knights of Blood. That had to take a crusade of carnage against the Imperium before becoming excommunicated...

 

Let's just say that our secrets are safe and leave it at that :) .

[Brother Immolator]

The highlords and the imperium know nothing,they only suspect.

[Phoebus]

I did not mean that the creation of the Disciples of Caliban led the High Lords to the conclusion that the Dark Angels were a Secret Legion... apologies for the confusion! :D

 

Rather, I think that, over the centuries/millennia following the Heresy, a number of separate instances related to similar behavior by Dark Angels and their Successors (taking off to pursue the Fallen) and/or hints regarding the potential authority of the Supreme Grand Master over his Successors led the High Lords to that suspicion. They don't know for sure - they couldn't - but the persisting similarities in structure, the ties, the behavior, etc., surpass those of any other relationship between First Founding Primogenitor and its Successors. Hence, the High Lords, not willing to call out such famed heroes of the Imperium, exert the only influence they can to mitigate what they suspect: they refrain ordering new Foundings of said Chapter (and, I imagine, its Successors) unless strictly necessary.

[Captain Semper]

I did not mean that the creation of the Disciples of Caliban led the High Lords to the conclusion that the Dark Angels were a Secret Legion... apologies for the confusion! ;)

 

Rather, I think that, over the centuries/millennia following the Heresy, a number of separate instances related to similar behavior by Dark Angels and their Successors (taking off to pursue the Fallen) and/or hints regarding the potential authority of the Supreme Grand Master over his Successors led the High Lords to that suspicion. They don't know for sure - they couldn't - but the persisting similarities in structure, the ties, the behavior, etc., surpass those of any other relationship between First Founding Primogenitor and its Successors. Hence, the High Lords, not willing to call out such famed heroes of the Imperium, exert the only influence they can to mitigate what they suspect: they refrain ordering new Foundings of said Chapter (and, I imagine, its Successors) unless strictly necessary.

 

Yeah, I thought I misread you there... :D

 

Well, there must be something that bugs the High Lords otherwise the super-stable DA gene-seed must have been very popular rivalring the UMs... I guess you can attribute this to High Lords suspicions or just a general dislike given the distant and closed nature of the DAs...

 

I would be very much interested in seeing an estimate of how many Unforgiven Chapters there are out there. assuming the Old Legion was numbering say 80,000. Even after the Horus Heresy and the Fall they'd be, I don't know, 50,000? That means roughly 50 Primogenitors (!) of which we only know 3 (apart from the DA Chapter itself). If (and this is a big IF) each was to have just one successor in this 10,000 years we would be looking at a wealth of chapters in the region of 100. And then if we assume that some might have been wiped out (such things are known to happen) it's reasonable to assume that the Unforgiven are currently at almost Old Legion strength.

 

What people thing about that?

[Brother Immolator]

Id say thats far too many.I cant give a good reason for it but it just doesnt sit right to me.

Id say a good measurement would be around 15k marines.

[Brother Degas]

I agree, 15-20 is probably the max, chapters are created and whipped out plus if your looking at a 100 successors its too many to keep a conspiracy quiet.

[Captain Semper]

Well, there are suppodsedly 1,000 Chapters (give or take). Say 500 are UM stock. All other Chapters are to small or too unstable to make up the remaining 480 Chapters if DAs only have 15 -20.

 

I beleive that the Chapters that got mauled during the Heresy (Isstvan and Terra) would have the lowest body count and therefore contribute very small amount of Primogenitors. These are Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Salamanders, White Scars and Imperial Fists (including the Iron Cage campaign). UM and DAs were waaay better off than the rest. So from the start the compulsory break-up of the Legions (the High Lords preferenaces were irrelevant at the time) resulted in UM having what? 250 2nd founding Chapters? give or take. I'd say the DAs would have realisticly created 50-60 Chapters. That is not counting other foundings. OK some would be wiped out - but not many... Having chapters being totally wiped out is not an everyday occurance. I mean Crimson Fists almost died out and we are still talking about it!

 

Maybe it is the High Lords distrust that does not allow them to achieve their "natural size" but I say 70 Chapters is plausible for DAs. That still leaves 430 Chapters sired by the rest! With SW at zero that means that all the remaining 6 former Legions would have sired on average 72 Chapters each! Given that some Legions are notoriously unstable or famous for their scarce decendants (like Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands) that means that Imperial Fists, BAs, and White Scars would have the bulk... Which would be strange as they all suffered great casualties during the Heresy and thus their 2nd founding should have been relatively poor in numbers... In the case of BAs there is also the genetic instability...

 

Does this make sense?

[Brother_Darius]

I did not mean that the creation of the Disciples of Caliban led the High Lords to the conclusion that the Dark Angels were a Secret Legion... apologies for the confusion! :(

 

Rather, I think that, over the centuries/millennia following the Heresy, a number of separate instances related to similar behavior by Dark Angels and their Successors (taking off to pursue the Fallen) and/or hints regarding the potential authority of the Supreme Grand Master over his Successors led the High Lords to that suspicion. They don't know for sure - they couldn't - but the persisting similarities in structure, the ties, the behavior, etc., surpass those of any other relationship between First Founding Primogenitor and its Successors. Hence, the High Lords, not willing to call out such famed heroes of the Imperium, exert the only influence they can to mitigate what they suspect: they refrain ordering new Foundings of said Chapter (and, I imagine, its Successors) unless strictly necessary.

 

Considering the history of the Heresy, and the main reason for the disbanding of the legions. The #1 thing on the High Lords of Terra "to do list" would be about "being hypervigilant" to ensure that a chapter did not act as a legion and threaten going rogue. I think that the HLoT would be very suspision of the DA.

[Iron Lord]

The White Scars are called out in Imperial Armour 10 (page 64: Mantis Warriors) as being:

 

"one of the rarest employed in the creation of new Space Marine Chapters with less than a tenth of current Adeptus Astartes units owing their origin to the White Scars bloodline."

 

For them to qualify as "one of the rarest" most of the other Legions must have more successors (with Wolves and Salamanders being the main exceptions).

 

Still- "less than a tenth"- being less than 100 out of 1000- doesn't seem all that low.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Well, there are suppodsedly 1,000 Chapters (give or take). Say 500 are UM stock. All other Chapters are to small or too unstable to make up the remaining 480 Chapters if DAs only have 15 -20.

 

I beleive that the Chapters that got mauled during the Heresy (Isstvan and Terra) would have the lowest body count and therefore contribute very small amount of Primogenitors. These are Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Salamanders, White Scars and Imperial Fists (including the Iron Cage campaign). UM and DAs were waaay better off than the rest. So from the start the compulsory break-up of the Legions (the High Lords preferenaces were irrelevant at the time) resulted in UM having what? 250 2nd founding Chapters? give or take. I'd say the DAs would have realisticly created 50-60 Chapters. That is not counting other foundings. OK some would be wiped out - but not many... Having chapters being totally wiped out is not an everyday occurance. I mean Crimson Fists almost died out and we are still talking about it!

 

Maybe it is the High Lords distrust that does not allow them to achieve their "natural size" but I say 70 Chapters is plausible for DAs. That still leaves 430 Chapters sired by the rest! With SW at zero that means that all the remaining 6 former Legions would have sired on average 72 Chapters each! Given that some Legions are notoriously unstable or famous for their scarce decendants (like Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands) that means that Imperial Fists, BAs, and White Scars would have the bulk... Which would be strange as they all suffered great casualties during the Heresy and thus their 2nd founding should have been relatively poor in numbers... In the case of BAs there is also the genetic instability...

 

Does this make sense?

Maths and Logic have NO place in the far future, burn heretic. :P

 

s

 

Edit: Maybe we'll get a comprehensive list of our successors/Legion members when we are on the cover of the 6th Ed C:SM :)

[Captain Semper]

Maths and Logic have NO place in the far future, burn heretic. ;)

 

s

 

Edit: Maybe we'll get a comprehensive list of our successors/Legion members when we are on the cover of the 6th Ed C:SM :)

 

Good luck with that! (either getting a comprehensive list OR be on the cover of 6th - says while burning :P)

[Brother Immolator]

Sempers train of thought is right,even if we take into account the schism in our ranks,it is evident that due to circumstance and genetic stability(we are 100% pure in geneseed no?)we would be second to the ultramarines in siring new chapters.

 

Plus who would you trust more in creating a new chapter?Vampires?Flee ridden Wolves?Self mutilating Cyborgs?Or some silent brooding guys that wear robes and have pure genetics?

 

That is i still find hard to swallow that our numbers(as a legion)reach more than 20k marines.

 

Perhaps there are fleet based successors that do the math templars style?

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm quite comfortable with there being 100,000 DA (99,000 having a different name for appearances) in the ooniverse. All the better to hunt you with...

 

Azzy quite quickly becomes 'DA MAN' in that light.

 

s

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

If the Rites of Battle rules for chapter generation are an accurate indication, 15% of all chapters are Dark Angel descendants. Azzy da man indeed. :P

 

That said, with so many people hunting the Fallen, I have to say the occurrence of campaign abandonment should be an exception and not the rule, especially for a rare number of individuals thinly spread over space and time. But then again I'm not being payed to write codex fluff.

[Iron Lord]

It's possible that a portion of those 150-odd chapters may not qualify as "Unforgiven"- perhaps being founded without direct input from the Supreme Grand Master.

 

Some might even be unaware of their own heritage- the Star Phantoms are rumoured to be DA geneseed- but don't believe it themselves- and react with offense to suggestions of it.

[Phoebus]

I beleive that the Chapters that got mauled during the Heresy (Isstvan and Terra) would have the lowest body count and therefore contribute very small amount of Primogenitors. These are Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Salamanders, White Scars and Imperial Fists (including the Iron Cage campaign).

A caveat: only the Veteran Companies of the Iron Hands were present at Isstvan. We don't even know what went down with the rest of their Legion. Cowards!

 

I'd say the DAs would have realisticly created 50-60 Chapters.

I agree with this. That's a fair assessment of their post-Heresy end-strength, given that (so far) we've only seen the First Legion take on the Night Lords and Luther's (admittedly numerous but lacking in warships) traitors.

 

The big thing to remember is what happens following the Second Founding. The Codex qualifies that the High Lords have rarely, if ever, used Dark Angels Gene-seed. We know it's not never, since the Disciples of Caliban were created millennia after the Second Founding.

 

If two thirds of the Chapters today are of Ultramarine stock (to include their Successors), then that leaves only roughly 330-340 Chapters for the other First Founding Chapters (not and their Successors to account for.

 

- The Blood Angels and their Successors account for six named Primogenitors

- The White Scars and their Successors account for five named Primogenitors

- The Dark Angels and their Successors account for (at least) four Primogenitors

- The Imperial Fists and their Successors account for three named Primogenitors (Lexicanum includes the Soul Drinkers, but readers of "Phalanx" might differ with that assessment...)

- The Raven Guard and their Successors account for four named Primogenitors

- The Iron Hands and their Successors account for three named Primogenitors

 

The Salamanders and the Space Wolves are special cases.

 

Not that those numbers are accurate. Codex: Grey Knights (pg 7) states that there were "barely four hundred" Chapters at the time of the Second Founding. As you can see above, the other First Founding Legions accounted for (at least) twenty-seven Chapters at best. It's obvious that more White Scars (who are noted as having successes, and not too many defeats at the Siege), Iron Hands (whose only known losses were the Veteran Companies), Imperial Fists (who fought defensively, primarily, and thus enjoyed an advantage), and (obviously) Dark Angels survived than is indicated. Raven Guard (reduced to <3k), Salamanders (almost wiped out), and Space Wolves (only able to contribute one more Chapter) are probably just right. The Blood Angels are a toss-up; maybe more of them survived... or maybe not many did, considering their affinity for close combat and the awful odds they had to face at Terra.

 

Bottom line, as of the Second Founding, the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and White Scars had to account for a minimum of 143 Chapters. That's assuming the Ultramarines lost no men whatsoever (so "barely 400 Chapters" minus 250k Ultramarine-stock Astartes equals "barely 150 Chapters"; from those 150, we in turn subtract the Raven Guard and their Successors, the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers, and the Salamanders, and arrive at 143).

 

The Dark Angels likely help this effort out quite a bit, seeing as how we are not noted as being under-strength, and had to fight only two major campaigns (that we know of) - versus the Night Lords and against Luther's lackeys. The other possibility that I can imagine throwing off the numbers if the Ultramarines forming more Chapters than their numbers would indicate. E.g., if they had 200,000 warriors left and decided to form one hundred full-strength Chapters and two hundred half-strength Chapters. That would be the kind of ambitious move Guilliman might make that could lead to Dorn calling BS on the Codex Astartes re-organization...

 

That's then, though.

 

In the present, we know that Ultramarines Gene-seed accounts for two thirds (66%) of the current roster of Chapters. That means that as few as 25 Chapters need to come up with 13-14 Chapters each, over a course of 25 separate Foundings (3rd-26th). I don't think that's unrealistic. With the exception of the four Foundings in M36 and the four Foundings between M37 and M38, it seems like a Founding was only called for once a millennium or every other millennium. That's plenty of time for a Chapter to tithe enough Gene-seed to see a Successor born from its ranks.

 

So the White Scars and their Successors could have easily come up with 10% of the current number of Chapters. They and their Successors would only have to cough up a single Chapter from their (ahem) seed every millennium or so. That leaves 240 or so Chapters. The Fists (and their Successors), having recovered from the Heresy and the Scouring, and enjoying the reputation and legacy that they do, probably make up for a larger (if not outrageously so) percentage. That leaves the Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Blood Angels to cover the rest. That would be, what, 100-120 or so Chapters? Over a period of 10,000 years and 25 other Foundings, I think that's plausible. And given the Dark Angels' (secret) cohesion, I could see them maintaining their post-Heresy size over the millennia, even if the High Lords don't feel like using their awesome Gene-seed.

 

Ultimately, I would be very pleased with any Secret Legion manpower state of 50,000 Astartes or more, and would only be truly disappointed if the total number of Dark Angels and Successors was found to be below the 15-20 Chapter figure.

[Bryan Blaire]

TBH, I think some of the number issues for Successors come from a disconnect from the new Legion numbers being upwards of 100K+ and the old Legion numbers being 10K each.

 

That said, I like the above discussion! 50K Unforgiven! Run Fallen, run! Repent, for tomorrow you die!

 

:)

[NightrawenII]

If the Rites of Battle rules for chapter generation are an accurate indication, 15% of all chapters are Dark Angel descendants. Azzy da man indeed. :P

 

That said, with so many people hunting the Fallen, I have to say the occurrence of campaign abandonment should be an exception and not the rule, especially for a rare number of individuals thinly spread over space and time. But then again I'm not being payed to write codex fluff.

Errm.

The table 1-3: Progenitor represents a chances of successor being born in one particular Founding. Not that it's given for such successor to exists or the overall prevalence of geneseed of said lineage.

 

It's possible that a portion of those 150-odd chapters may not qualify as "Unforgiven"- perhaps being founded without direct input from the Supreme Grand Master.

 

Some might even be unaware of their own heritage- the Star Phantoms are rumoured to be DA geneseed- but don't believe it themselves- and react with offense to suggestions of it.

Other way around, the Dark Angels vehemently deny any connection with Star Phantoms. :P

 

 

~NightrawenII.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

If the Rites of Battle rules for chapter generation are an accurate indication, 15% of all chapters are Dark Angel descendants. Azzy da man indeed. :P

 

That said, with so many people hunting the Fallen, I have to say the occurrence of campaign abandonment should be an exception and not the rule, especially for a rare number of individuals thinly spread over space and time. But then again I'm not being payed to write codex fluff.

Errm.

The table 1-3: Progenitor represents a chances of successor being born in one particular Founding. Not that it's given for such successor to exists or the overall prevalence of geneseed of said lineage.

Yes, and if there's a 15% chance of a Dark Angel successor being born, then after 10k years the number of Space Marines of the DA geneseed should hover around 15%, shouldn't they..?