Heavy bolters....

[Amadeo]

Ther my favorite weapon of choice modeling wise, but what's the best way to utilize them tactically....especially in regards to sternguard,which I stubbornly wish to integrate. Thanks in advance...

[raganrkob]

I agree with you, they look awesome!

 

The way to field HB (for me)is with predators or Typhoon speeders.

 

With sternguard you could have an anti-infantry squadron in cover with two HB and the 30 range ammo. Not super optimal but will look cool.

[ak-73]

Heavy Bolters are only good on vehicles, aka the Typhoon or the Auto+HB Predator. And that's because they complement the main armamant of these vehicles. On infantry other weapons like the missile launcher are better.

 

Alex

[Something Wycked]

Heavy Bolters are only good on vehicles, aka the Typhoon or the Auto+HB Predator. And that's because they complement the main armamant of these vehicles. On infantry other weapons like the missile launcher are better.

 

Alex

Why are weapons like the missile launcher "better" for infantry? If we're going by your previous standard ("that's because they complement the main armament"), the missile launcher does not complement the main armament of the infantry- it leads to a confused squad since most of the models want to be within 24" while the missile launcher wants to be far away.

 

Heavy Bolters are as good or better than any other heavy weapon if your primary target is medium to light infantry, and light vehicles, and it doesn't particularly matter if its mounted on a vehicle or infantry carried. The vehicle gives the weapon more range and mobility while the infantry gives the weapon survivability.

 

@ the OP: personally, I only put combi-weapons on Sternguard because they are the only place in the codex where you can get Special Issue Ammunition, and you can get the heavy weapons they have access to anywhere in the codex.

 

That said, if you want a Heavy Bolter on your Sternguard, by all means, make it happen :unsure: You'll just have to be aware that you'll constantly be facing the decision between moving your Sternguard to get them closer to the enemy to use their SIA and not being able to fire the Heavy Bolter, or choosing to leave them stationary so they can use the Heavy Bolter and potentially allowing the enemy to stay out of their range completely.

 

There are people on the B&C who use Sternguard simply because it offers them cheap access to heavy weapons and use them as a sort of specialized Devastators squad- and it works for them, so it can work for you!

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

My Wolves faced off against a Crimson Fists force... I had a 5 wolf Missile Launcher Long Fangs Pack, and a 5 wolf Heavy Bolter Long Fangs Pack... the Missile Launcher pack immobilized a drop podding dread before getting annihilated while the Heavy Bolter fang pack single handedly won the game for me by taking out a 6 man bike squad, a 10 man sternguard unit, most of a tactical squad, and laying into a devastator squad. Granted, the threat from other weapons helped this cause... but after that experience I feel Heavy Bolters definitely demand respect in regards to what their job is.

[ShinyRhino]

Heavy bolters are the sexiest heavy weapon in the Space Marine arsenal. Others might be more flexible or more reliable, but the very image of a Marine toting a 300-pound machine gun that fires massive bolter shells is just epic.

 

That being said, you don't want to field heavy bolters in singles. They don't belong in tactical squads where you only get one heavy weapon. You want them paired at the minimum, either in a Devastator Squad or a Sternguard Squad. As mentioned, you trade the ability to fire special ammo if you take them in Sternguard for the Heavy 3 profile.

 

I feel heavy bolters really shine on attack bikes. Not only are attack bikes dirt cheap, but they are mobile and Relentless. Plus, each bike can also fire twin-linked bolters in addition to the heavy bolter. It equals a whole lot of fire downrange. You can do something similar with heavy bolters on assault cannon speeders, but that's far more expensive and less mobile.

 

With the surge in FOTM Necron players, the heavy bolter has become even more useful, because it's cheap and knocks down several Necron units without a save. Warriors are wheat before the scythe when facing heavy bolters.

[Amadeo]

if you have heavy bolters in your sternguard, you cant use the 30' range special ammo? (obviously just learning the rules)

[Elric the Silvercoat]

if you have heavy bolters in your sternguard, you cant use the 30' range special ammo? (obviously just learning the rules)

The two heavy bolter guys can't but the rest of the squad with bolters can use the 30 range bolter shot.

[DarkGuard]

I once ran a 10 man Dev squad with 4 heavy bolters, was a pretty nasty unit for anti-infantry. I know some people say that MLs do the job just as well but in my experience heavy bolters are the better anti-infantry weapon, better rate of fire, better strength, better AP, and of course no nasty business of scattering and only catching a few guys. In the end the only reason I dropped them was two fold, first I hated walking them on in DoW missions, and secondly they struggled against mech armies which my LGS shifted towards. This is the reason people prefer ML Dev squads, they can open up transports and take out infantry.

 

Nowadays I only use them Typhoons and that's because of bog standard equipment. That doesn't mean I don't like them, rather the reason is that I have a lot of anti-infantry in other parts of the list and just don't need them.

 

As for use on Sternguard, I reckon a Sternguard squad would be a more viable anti-infantry threat if used up-close rapid firing their boltguns, but giving them heavy bolters can work. However, for the point you pay plasma cannons would be more effective, as would a close-range set up.

[ak-73]

Heavy Bolter aren't bad per se, as a Crimson Fist player I use 4xHB Devastators occasionally too (but in 5men squads). But from a competitive standpoint, you bring your anti-Infantry elsewhere. A Dakka Pred is more point effective than HB Devs, if you compare it. If you have Tacticals, Rifleman Dreads, Typhoons, Dakka Preds, a TFC, you have enough point-effective anti-infantry. What you need then is melta. That comes in form of Land Speeders, attack bikes, Sternguard, Combat squads.

 

There's no room for HB Devs, from a competitive stand-point; it costs you a HS slot after all. Plus HB Devs are more static anti-infantry than a Land Speeder Typhoon for example.

 

Alex

[greatcrusade08]

i find HB on infantry to be hit or miss depending on your local opponents..

however that being said, my younger brother ran imperial fists for a while and although he did have a sterngaurd squad he elected to have lysander join his 4HB dev squad..

i poo-pooed the idea and told him to put lysander with the sternies, but he stuck to his guns and to his credit in some of his games the unit really shined through..

causing 7-9 wounds a turn with that unit.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

what about using the standard LS platform for AI: running dual HB on a trip(x3) of land speeders:

18 shots: 42" attack bubble: all for about 180 points

[greatcrusade08]

if you move 12" you can only fire one weapon IIRC, if you move 6" you can fire both.

 

apart from that dual HB speeders are good for dakka

[ak-73]

It's just not that useful against Sv 3+ Infantry sitting in AV11 vehicles. If you want HBs, why not the Dakka Pred? That is the first question you'll have to ask yourself. The second is: if I think the Dakka Pred is the best platform for it, do I need more HBs to complement those? The answer in most cases is no.

 

Alex

[maturin]

One quick reason why you may not want to use dakka preds is because they eat up your HS slots, which heavily influences how the rest of your army is built. And you can't squadron preds (outside of IA), but you can get up to 6 HB's in one FOC slot using speeders. Perhaps not the most compelling of reasons to use them, but definitely a factor to consider.

[ak-73]

One quick reason why you may not want to use dakka preds is because they eat up your HS slots, which heavily influences how the rest of your army is built. And you can't squadron preds (outside of IA), but you can get up to 6 HB's in one FOC slot using speeders. Perhaps not the most compelling of reasons to use them, but definitely a factor to consider.

 

Yeah but the Dakka Pred generally is an auto-include in HS. The line of reasoning is this: if I think I need some Dakka what is the best platform? The Dakka Pred. With at least 2 slots going to Dakka Preds, maybe 3, that gives me lots of armour and anti-infantry and anti-transport (or light mech). Which means I better get some serious anti-tank in which usually comes in the form of fast melta (-> FA slot) plus long-range firepower - often in the form of LasPlas Backs and combat squads -> troop squads.

So what to do with Elite? Key to stopping most enemies is popping transports. Absolutely crucial. That is part of the reason why Rifleman Dreads come to mind for Elite. But there's plenty other options here too. It's just it allows you to form a very threatening long range army between Dakka Preds, LasPlas Backs and Rifleman Dreads.

 

And yes it is spamming long-range but that is part of threatening army lists. The amount of long-range S7+ firepower combined with fast melta and loads of Tacticals isn't that easy to overcome.

 

So from the first few conclusions the army almost builds itself. If you don't think you need massed HBs, one alternative is to play Vulkan and ram flamers, meltas, Thunderhammers down the enemies throat and wtach him choke on it. Again we have a spamming theme there.

 

 

Alex

[Warp Angel]

I will take a 100 point Thunderfire cannon over dakka Pred any day. My tactics have proven it to be the better platform with my army and playstyle. Your mileage may vary. But that's a topic for another conversation.

 

I think the big issue with Heavy Bolters is not that they aren't one of the best anti-light infantry weapons in the game (they are), but rather that in an all-comers army, they lack the flexibility to engage heavier targets and aren't very good against MEQ at all.

 

3 shots * 2/3 hit * 2/3 wound * 1/3 failed save = 4 out of 9 shots killed for a heavy bolter, or less than one every two rounds.

1 shot * 2/3 hit * 5/6 wound and kill = 5/9 shots kill for a krak missile, or more than one every two rounds.

 

Missile launchers also instant death T4 monsters and have a better chance at wounding things with higher tougness than 4.

Missile launchers kill light armor vastly better and have at least some chance at AV14.

Missile launchers have the possibility of inflicting multiple wounds with Frag sometimes too.

Missile launchers have longer range.

 

But... all that said... if I were up against light infantry or my dice were HOT, I'd love to have 4 heavy bolter devastator squads.

[ak-73]

So they are only slightly worse against MEQ than the feared Krak missile (see Long Fang spam)? In fact if your enemy understimates the effectiveness of the HB, your Devastators can alpha strike a Long Fang squad. If you get a casualty on the first turn of a shoot out, he's on backfooting.

 

The ML's selling points are versatiliy, range and most of all its effectiveness against Marines, MCs and transports alike. As well as IDing T4. So it's very good.

 

 

Alex

[Amadeo]

what is the long fang profile (as opposed to regular devastator squad) and what's their point cost and advantages?

[Something Wycked]

The profile is essentially identical; squad size is basically 1-6, and the number of heavy weapons in the squad is (squad size - 1); that is, you start with a pack leader with no heavy weapon, and each pack member you add must buy a heavy weapon. They're cheaper than Devs due to their smaller size and the advantage is if the Pack Leader does not shoot, the pack may split fire between two targets.

[ak-73]

The profile is essentially identical; squad size is basically 1-6, and the number of heavy weapons in the squad is (squad size - 1); that is, you start with a pack leader with no heavy weapon, and each pack member you add must buy a heavy weapon. They're cheaper than Devs due to their smaller size and the advantage is if the Pack Leader does not shoot, the pack may split fire between two targets.

 

Vanillas don't take extra body for their Devs. The only real competitive choice for Devastators is Sarge+4xML(+Razorback). MM need something else than a static backfield platform, HB are better fielded as a backup for Autocannons or Typhoon Launchers. Every other alternative is over-costed. Extra bodies are a waste and better spend on upgrading your offensive capabilities elsewhere; don't buff the defensive capabilities of static units, buff the offensive capabilities of mobile units.

 

Long Fangs are basically super Devastators due to lower point cost and being better due to split fire.

 

Alex

[Brother_Fatiswon]

if you move 12" you can only fire one weapon IIRC, if you move 6" you can fire both.

apart from that dual HB speeders are good for dakka

 

36" + 6" float move= 42" attack bubble :confused:

[Something Wycked]

Vanillas don't take extra body for their Devs. Extra bodies are a waste and better spend on upgrading your offensive capabilities elsewhere; don't buff the defensive capabilities of static units, buff the offensive capabilities of mobile units.

Speak for yourself. I always run my Devs in units of 10 and it works rather nicely for me. :)

[ShinyRhino]

Vanillas don't take extra body for their Devs. Extra bodies are a waste and better spend on upgrading your offensive capabilities elsewhere; don't buff the defensive capabilities of static units, buff the offensive capabilities of mobile units.

Speak for yourself. I always run my Devs in units of 10 and it works rather nicely for me. ;)

 

Same. If you run tham at 5 strong, your loss of firepower with each casualty is astronomical. Without the ability to jam a Wolf Guard with TDA and CML into the squad, you need bodies to soak those wounds or risk losing most of your strength to a couple bad armor saves.

[ak-73]

No, I'll rather buy a LasPlas Back and if the enemy fires at my static firebase instead of my mobile units, let them. It's worth the sacrifice.

 

Alex