Blood Angels vs Daemons

[dragonknight4275]

Remember that guy who ALWAYS tables me? The one with Chaos Space Marines that I asked you web-o-nauts (I found that term online. I quite like it!) for help against? Yeah, well I played him again at 1750, though this time he used his Chaos Daemons. I'm familiar with him playing Daemons; in fact, Chaos Space Marines were a surprise the first time he brought them out a long time ago (meaning a few months). His lists are usually packed with monsters, and he never forgets Skarbrand. SO, not knowing he had been working on a new list, I razorspam'd my list, complete with autocannon-lascannon predators and filled out the assault squads with meltas and fists. And Mephiston for ripping open slaaneshi daemon princes. As it was, of course, his new list was packed with daemonettes and fiends, rounded out with daemon princes, skarbrand, and a keeper of secrets. MEAN MEAN MEAN for lots of melta and lascannons, where alternatively (and more cheaply) a couple of flamers really would have done the trick. Plus asscannons on the razorbacks to deal with daemonettes and monsters alike. So here is a list I cooked up tailored specifically for daemons at 1750. Advice?

 

HQ

Astorath the Grim - 220 points

 

TP

10 Deff Company - 2x infernus, 2x power weapons - 260 (ew, I hate whopping points costs)

5 Assault marines - melta, fist, Razorback w/ asscannons - 190 each, 3x units - 570 points

 

FA

Baal predator - heavy bolters, dozer blades - 150 each, 2x units - 300 points

 

HS

5 Devastators - 4x missile launchers - 130 points

Stormraven - Typhoon launcher, hurricane bolters, extra armour - 270 points

 

There are some units that I thought about. I took Astro because 1) His S6 axe is gold against daemons (monsters included), because of the rerolling invuln. saves, 2) The 3- red thirst, explaining the lack of priests (I get rended to death or monstrous creature'd anyway - no fnp), and 3) because he likes his deff company. I also argued over a furioso over the dev squad, but reasoned S8 missiles can put the hurt on monsters and frag is terrifying to daemonettes. The plan is to zip around FAST, taking out the fiends and keeper first to eliminate ridiculous assaults from like half the table away at the beginning of the turn. I'll be trying to keep out of assault range from daemonettes while the asscannons on the razorbacks and baal preds gun them down while backpedaling. The massive deathstar (10 death company, TEN!) is the "hi daemons, punch-you-in-the-face-real-hard-and-hope-you-don't-recover" unit. These guys, in the raven, will zoom around and target the hardest, meanest unit and wipe it off the table before going and committing suicide due to rage. With lotsa firepower, I think this list can be successful.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Point #1: Ask Mort, he trounced my Daemons last time he was state-side. I even had some good luck on my side and still failed the day.

 

Point #2: Daemons are a castrated army at best in today's 40K. The scatter die is a fickle mistress that always weighs down a daemon player. Add to that their pathetic showing in the Movement phase, Shooting phase and 0 involvement in the psychic phase - that only leaves... the assault. Just outclass them in all other phases and send them weeping all the way back to the dusty shelf where they reside.

 

As it applies to your list:

HQ - Astorath is fine but pricy at this level. Might be best to save the points & build up elsewhere

TP - DC aren't the best vs. daemons; power weapons & rending counter what the DC brings to the table

TP - Jumpless AM's w/Razors is a classic BA unit. Might drop the fist; with so few marines it will most likely never get a chance to swing if you actually get into close combat w/daemons

Note: I'm never a big fan of 1 scoring unit on the table

FA - Dakka Baals work fine - anything that moves and shoots makes daemons cry

HS - Dev's are fine

HS - Ravens work as daemons have few units that can take them out at a distance (like almost all other armies in the game). You more might want to consider its role on the table.

 

There are lots of other units that will ruin a daemon player's day:

Dreads hate monstrous creatures but everything else the daemon player brings hate dreads - especially DC dreads w/talons.

More Razor span will only ruin his day all the more - any and all mobile shooting platforms do the job. I'm a big fan of the Laz/linked plasma - see below

Daemon-zilla is still their toughest build so think about anything that breaks toughness is your friend. Going back to the Razors, Laz/Plas combos bring the rain & laughs in the face of high toughness.

 

It's pretty well advantage BA vs. Daemons any day of the week so just have fun with it.

 

Cheers, -OMG

[Corbulo]

OMG knows what he is talking about. I've had my fair share of games vs Daemons and they have all been nail bitters. You're lucky your opponent isn't playing with Fateweaver.

 

Daemons have a lot of very good units vs Space Marines and BA are no exception. Shooting them is key, most of them with drop out in the open and you should get a good solid turn of blasting them. Most daemons don't have shots to kill your guys, except for one of their units which I believe fires mass S3 shots. Them and the template shots from soul grinders are their biggest shooting units.

 

Make a few changes to your list (following OMGs points above) to maximize it and then make changes accordingly after your game.

 

Corb

[Blitzkrieg861]

How would you deal with a Khorne Daemon army? I'm talking 2 Blood Thirsters, 3 Demon Princes w/ Wings and then however many Blood Letters will fit in after that? I took a full mech list w/ Mephy and got nearly tabled against this. Mephiston is nearly useless as the big daemons get a 2+ invulnerable against anything he does to them and can't even be instakilled. Any suggestions? PS: This dude never fails a deepstrike roll, nothing ever mishaps.

[AbusePuppy]

How would you deal with a Khorne Daemon army?

 

Shooting and tanks, same way you beat every Daemon army but more so. Daemons have virtually zero ways to deal with tanks reliably, and those few that they do tend to be on vulnerable platforms (Soulgrinder, Tzeentch Heralds, etc.)

 

Dunno how much terrain you have, but that can affect the game a lot. Deploy in "castle" formation, basically taking one section of the board and spreading out there. Remember, you can leave some gaps so long as stuff doesn't have much room in them. Use impassible terrain to help block more space and stay near difficult terrain, as it's your best friend. (Very, very few Daemons have offensive grenades.)

 

He'll DS in and he has two choices, speaking generally: near or far. If he's near, he risks mishaps (and even if you say he "never mishaps," if you make him take more chances, he will.) If he goes far, you have extra time to move around and shoot him. One of BA's big advantages is our speed, and Daemons can only match that with a few of their winged units; focus on those first before moving to other, less immediate threats and you'll be pretty safe. Make sure you have left yourself places to retreat to- don't back completely into a corner. If he surrounds you, shoot a hole in his lines (should be easy if he's spread thin like that) and move into the hole you've created.

 

Make him move through terrain whenever possible. Lacking grenades, this will not only slow him down but also let you strike first even when he charges- and Assault Marines get lots of attacks, which Daemons don't really like. Combat still isn't going to be awesome against him, but it should mean that you kill 2-4 Bloodletters before they can swing at you, which will make a big difference and if his unit is weakened from shooting, it can turn the tide against him.

 

You say you're running full mechanized + Mephy; do you have Baals or Speeders? Both of these can be invaluable for blocking his charges (and applying lots of shooting.) The big Daemons, obviously, should be your first targets- Assault Cannons are pretty nasty against them, but LasPlas and AutoLas can do a lot of damage as well. If you have him down to 1-2 wounds don't be afraid to charge with some ASM to finish the job (if you have a Priest around)- S5 makes a huge difference in getting wounds on the monstrous creatures. Be wary of putting yourself inside his charge range with the Bloodletters following behind.

 

It wounds like you guys are playing 2000pt games? So his first wave is almost certainly just the five MCs and nothing else. Just make sure your vehicles are moving 7"+ so he can't hit you and focus fire to bring things down. Even with the ~6 attacks his guys have on the charge, doing any damage to your tanks will be really, really hard for him if you're moving full speed and, unlike other armies, BA get to keep shooting when they do this. "Layer" your tanks so that the front rank moves top speed and the rear ranks can move slower and shoot more guns (if they have multiple weapons, anyways.) Keep forcing saves on his guys- it only takes one or two bad rolls for things to start going south for him with his MCs.

[Blitzkrieg861]

This last game was 1750pts and my 3rd (I think) game with BA as I've only been playing them since mid October I am relatively new to them. I think now I would honestly fair a little better. Your suggestions are appreciated, brother. I will see if I can find some good pics or videos of castling being done. My list was as follows:

 

Mephy

4 x 5 ASM w/ Razorback armed w/ TL-LC

3 x Baal w/ TL-AC and HB Sponsons

Pred w/ AC and LC Sponsons

2 x Vindie w/ SS

 

His (Roughly)

 

2 x Blood Thirster

3 x Winged Demon Prince

I think 4 x 8 Blood Letters

 

As many things could took that 2+ invulnerable save against psychic powers and force weapons or however it works and as many things that could took Lashes. I remember this game quite vividly as I was pretty bitter about nothing of his mishaping (or even scattering badly) and losing two vehicles to his shooting of all things when he dropped in.

 

I have changed some things around pretty drasticly in my "standard" 1750 mech list. I didn't know I was going to be playing against Demons, let alone ones that were going to all have that 2+ invulnerable against Mephy. I would've faired far better if they weren't kitted out like that as he did literally nothing that game. I play with Assault Cannons now on the Razorbacks and while it's only been about 6 games or so that I've been doing that, it's worked very well every time. Quite reliable shooting that would likely make the difference. Eh, I'm going to post the list I've been running the last few games with good effect thus far. I am still tinkering with units and vehicles to sub in but with what models I have (or can proxy with a different colored but wysiwig SW model) I've been using this...

 

Mephy

3 x 5 ASM w/ Razorback armed w/ TL-AC

8 DC w/ PF and Land Raider Redeemer armed w/ MM and EA

3 x Baal Pred w/ TL-AC and HB Sponsons

Pred w/ AC and LC Sponsons

 

I know that simply having Meph against an Daemon army with those upgrades puts me at a fairly harsh disadvantage. A big chunk of my army, intended to fill an assaulty hole in the list, is completely neutralized. With that said, I have aimed this at an all comers list and don't want to specificly change my list to beat Daemons or any other army. I'm more than willing to suggestions that will better serve the list in general but I'm not open to catering to a specific foe.

[AbusePuppy]

If you don't mind some list suggestions:

 

TLAC are a fine weapon platform and will perform well against Daemons, but I can't say the same for TLLC; I don't, as a rule, like one-gun vehicles and the Lascannon + TLPlasma is simply much more useful in my opinion- it makes good use of our Fast vehicle trait and isn't as easily knocked out by a single glancing hit, but still threatens tanks and heavy infantry alike.

 

Meph can be okay against Daemons, your opponent is just running a metric buttload (that's 1.3 imperial buttloads, mind you) of guys with Khorn's blessing. Bloodletters will still fall to him pretty easily and so long as Mephy gets the charge, they will have trouble hurting him.

 

I agree that you shouldn't skew your list to beat particular armies- to do so robs you of the experience learning how to defeat those armies using good tactics, which is only hurting you in the long run. However, I would definitely stick with avoiding the Vindicators, as I think you made a good choice there.

 

Unfortunately I don't have a good tutorial on castling (need to write that at some point >.< ), but here is one of the batreps that I originally used to understand the technique and see it in action. I don't normally link to YTTH, but some of Stelek's older stuff is really good, and this is one of them.

[Dunnaeph34rn473]

Since we are talking about a Khornite specific army with lots of Letters, Attack Bikes with heavy bolters and Baal Predators with assault cannons and heavy bolters will mow down Bloodletters like blades of grass. I personally prefer the Attack Bikes due to possible 24" movement but Baals will be very effective as well.