Paladins vs Purifiers

[Algoroth]

I have an 1850pt tournament upcoming, and am debating using Grey Knights. Looking over the various builds, I am tinkering with using either Draigowing or Crowe Purifier spam. I'm sure that this has been debated heavily in the past, but searches only seem to turn up batreps of the two forces clashing. Any input on which might make a more competitive force, or a link to earlier discussion of the same, would be appreciated.

[Grand Master Caloth]

i ran paladins for a long time, as a makeshift retinue for the GM or Librarian or both. however, i have since switched to Purifiers. I have a 10-man term squad and a 10-man strike squad, GM, Librarian, LR, SR, and 8-man Purifiers. I loss of the 4 term armored saves is countered by 8 bodies with two attacks apiece and the special psychic power was a great counterpoint, and being fearless, they make excellent bodyguards for leadership or as an anchor unit.

 

 

while this may not be a useful reply to your original query, the list is balanced and amazingly fluid, letting me act and react beautifully. You dont HAVE to specialize your list to Crowe or Draigo, and doing so, i think, takes away from the army. (personal opinion, please dont turn this into a flame-athon. Im honestly trying to help by giving my viewpoint)

[the jeske]

If you want to win the paladins have fewer bad match ups and offten can get carried by the fact that they are multi wound and in termi armor . Puri builds on the other hand are fully viable , with a few very bad match ups[draig wing for example] , but because you are rolling around 30-40+ dice , they are a very fun army to play with . + on the non top players when you start rolling that many dice and say that your traning because your army has 30 autocannons[and always mention the razorbacks, how unstunable they are] most of which are renging something clicks and they suddenly start playing bad.

[Alpha PTP]

It comes down to your play style. I prefer Purifiers over Paladins simply because they cost less and you can get more Psycannons on the board that way, however Paladins do have their place in an army because of how hard it is to kill them all for one KP.

 

One thing that turns me away from Purifiers is the fact that Crowe is... not good. He is a waste of an HQ slot and is pretty much the price you have to pay if you don't want to use your GM's GS to make them able to make them scoring.

[the jeske]

0_o what ? how is he a waste . You want me to tell that an army without crow that is based around razor purfires would work better with other HQ ? He makes them troops with 6 units the bonus points you pay for each unit doesnt make the unit non viable . He doesnt cost 250+pts . He dies . big deal so do most of HQs . At worse he draws away fire from the puris and their psycannons [which is what you want , because psycannons are what makes the puri builds work].

 

+ you always have another slot for HQ if you would want another HQ , god knows why when in a gunline build like razorspam you want to maxmize the number of shots] , but you can.

[The Holy Heretic]

Why not go for Crowes purifiers, supported by paladins?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Purifiers are easy to spam. You don't need razors since they can fire the psycannons out the rhinos.

 

G :cuss

[Souba]

crowe is worth his points. because they are not many

 

if crowe would have grand strategy.. that would be awesome.. hes the leader of the purifier brotherhood afterall....

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don't think Purifiers and Paladins are a good combo for competive play as the Paladins eat up points needed for support to the Purifiers. Crowe and Coteaz are an awesome combination.

 

G

[Alpha PTP]

0_o what ? how is he a waste . You want me to tell that an army without crow that is based around razor purfires would work better with other HQ ? He makes them troops with 6 units the bonus points you pay for each unit doesnt make the unit non viable . He doesnt cost 250+pts . He dies . big deal so do most of HQs . At worse he draws away fire from the puris and their psycannons [which is what you want , because psycannons are what makes the puri builds work].

 

+ you always have another slot for HQ if you would want another HQ , god knows why when in a gunline build like razorspam you want to maxmize the number of shots] , but you can.

I feel that Crowe is not good by any means. He is 150 points and nothing really makes me go "wow, I need this guy in my army." The only reason I would take him is because he makes Purifiers troops. I would just rather take a GM so I could get Psychic Communion, Grand Strategy, Rad grenades, and maybe Psychotroke Grenades if I am feeling squirrelly for another 40 to 55 points . I think Coteaz is a must in an army because he is honestly worth his points for the amount he does.

[the jeske]

He is 150 points and nothing really makes me go "wow, I need this guy in my army." The only reason I would take him is because he makes Purifiers troops

ok maybe its a language barrier , but considering it is impossible to do a puri army without crow and he is cheap . How is he not "I need to this guy in my army" ? Also how is a GM better in a GK army using puris[specialy as it is then limited to max 3 such units] , runing termis[fewer psycannons] or strikes[fewer psycannons] without any real point games [ sure strikes are cheaper but a master costs then crow. and both armies can use an identical second HQ].

 

Cortez is only good if someone wants to use henchman and even there he is a tax just like crow.

[AnImA8]

He is 150 points and nothing really makes me go "wow, I need this guy in my army." The only reason I would take him is because he makes Purifiers troops

ok maybe its a language barrier , but considering it is impossible to do a puri army without crow and he is cheap . How is he not "I need to this guy in my army" ? Also how is a GM better in a GK army using puris[specialy as it is then limited to max 3 such units] , runing termis[fewer psycannons] or strikes[fewer psycannons] without any real point games [ sure strikes are cheaper but a master costs then crow. and both armies can use an identical second HQ].

 

Cortez is only good if someone wants to use henchman and even there he is a tax just like crow.

 

You're too hooked up on running a Purifier army. The point is that we're discussing either running Purifiers or running Draigowing. If you want to run Purifiers, then you have to deal with the fact that Crowe by himself is a horrible special character. This is not a problem for Draigowing since Draigo is a boss character. So no one NEEDS to run Crowe in this discussion, and that distinction is useful in determining which army one might prefer.

 

As for the GM, again the GM by himself is significantly better than Crowe. The only thing is it wouldn't be a full Puri Spam list. You'd have to make due with maybe a couple small squads of strikes, running alongside a couple of squads of Purifiers (which you can then make scoring with Grand Strategy...) Not optimal. But definitely doable.

 

-AnImA

[Crynn]

He is 150 points and nothing really makes me go "wow, I need this guy in my army." The only reason I would take him is because he makes Purifiers troops

ok maybe its a language barrier , but considering it is impossible to do a puri army without crow and he is cheap . How is he not "I need to this guy in my army" ? Also how is a GM better in a GK army using puris[specialy as it is then limited to max 3 such units] , runing termis[fewer psycannons] or strikes[fewer psycannons] without any real point games [ sure strikes are cheaper but a master costs then crow. and both armies can use an identical second HQ].

 

Cortez is only good if someone wants to use henchman and even there he is a tax just like crow.

 

I actually disagree with this post entirely.

 

Crowe is the worst HQ in a book full of star studded HQ choices. He does not 'draw fire' he draws one or 2 lascannons then dies, thats not drawing fire, thats being a kill point. Yes you can hide him but he is wasted. even if you take 30 purifiers he makes each purifiers base cost 27 points if you count his wasted 150 points into their own. Go any less than 30 and look at their effective cost sky rocket.

 

Also preceeding this statement was one about all HQs dying which is exceptionally untrue especially in the GK codex. Yes they may die but they will go down having great effects on the game. A GM is a much better choice. Not only can he eat wounds for a unit he is in (much better than craw drawing the fire of a couple of instant death shots and that is if they feel the need to shoot him) but on average he can make 20 purifiers scoring, when that is not needed he can give them a myriad of other abilities from outflanking and scout to counter attack. He can come with all the grenades has psychic communion and servo skulls. There is no competition, Crowe is how unexperienced players would make a purifier list. Simply add two units of 5 man strikes which are greaet to have just for warp quake and their deepstrike option especially when combined with the GMs psychic communion and skulls, and suddenly you have Deep strike denial and units that can get to fire away objectives easily and be held off in reserve when they need to stay alive.

 

Cortex a tax like Crowe? Well this is where our views are literally polar opposites. Coteaz has to be one of th single best HQ choices in the game. Irrelevant of allowing henchman as troops., I play a highly competetive 1750 pt GK army which hasn't lost a tournament game all year and run coteaz and only a single 7 man unit of henchman. Coteaz is always a huge performer in the list and at the same cost as a SM captain is completely underpriced. Stubborn on 10 paladins who can shoot anything that comes from reserves within 12 of them yes please. Re-roll initiative means any decent dark eldar player cant deploy too offensively with the first turn on that 30% chance you will steal the initiative and end the game turn 1 not to mention when are deploying and going first you can be certain the initiative will not be stiollen on you. Combine that with another hammerhands for a unit and sanctuary to really keep enemy units out of combat and suddenly that 100 points went allong way before even touching on scoring henchmen.

 

In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) in order to make a good purifier list you start with 2 5 man strike units and a GM then add Purifiers, You do not need 6 purifying flames, and losing 2 psycannons is not worth the 150 point crowe tax you have to pay.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[AnImA8]

In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) in order to make a good purifier list you start with 2 5 man strike units and a GM then add Purifiers, You do not need 6 purifying flames, and loosing 2 psycannons is not worth the 150 point crowe tax you have to pay.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

This I found really interesting. I also suggested this in my post, but I had never actually seen/nor heard of it before so I wasn't sure of it's strengths. Do you have any examples off the top of your head of people doing this, or any discussions anywhere that you could link here? I'd be really interested in hearing them.

 

-AnImA8

[Crynn]

In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) in order to make a good purifier list you start with 2 5 man strike units and a GM then add Purifiers, You do not need 6 purifying flames, and loosing 2 psycannons is not worth the 150 point crowe tax you have to pay.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

This I found really interesting. I also suggested this in my post, but I had never actually seen/nor heard of it before so I wasn't sure of it's strengths. Do you have any examples off the top of your head of people doing this, or any discussions anywhere that you could link here? I'd be really interested in hearing them.

 

-AnImA8

 

I'm sorry I do not though I sure if you hunt around you can find some. The fact is no purifier army ahs one any notable tournament let alone placed, it is a strong list but lacks heavily in flexability when forced to play outside it's comfort zone, changing the base to strikes and and a GM fixes this a great deal and allows you things like scoring venerabkle dreads to sit on back field objectives. The fact is crowe, is truely dead weight where as neither strikes or the GM are and can contribute things that the purifiers are missing. If you have a spare 100 points coteaz is also great and you can use some small henchman units to get thing like deathcults or cheap scoring units with access to razorbacks or rhinos incase you run you purifier units as 10 men and sometimes want to combat squad them and give each a transport.

 

I have flogged that many purifier list to tell you that forced to play outside their comfort zone they have no answers, theya re one of the best all round units in the game however they cannot be doing all the anti tank, anti infantry, close combat, objective sitting etc etc.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Algoroth]

Thanks, guys, lots of really good salient points here. I agree that I was rather undewhelmed by Crowe as a HQ choice.

 

Crynn, GM Caloth, I'd be interested in seeing your lists. Lists that work on the field instead of just on paper are always most useful ;)

[Crynn]

Thanks, guys, lots of really good salient points here. I agree that I was rather undewhelmed by Crowe as a HQ choice.

 

Crynn, GM Caloth, I'd be interested in seeing your lists. Lists that work on the field instead of just on paper are always most useful :)

 

My current list is on this forum under '1750 point GK army on a winng streak' howevet it contains no purifiers but does use a GM and strike. I am toying with an 1850 pt version that include purifiers for the ETC. I don't think whole armie sof purifiers are necessary but I can attest (as will the bat reps in my thread to the uses of a GM and strike knights.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Crynn]

Sorry guys, double post

[Alpha PTP]

He is 150 points and nothing really makes me go "wow, I need this guy in my army." The only reason I would take him is because he makes Purifiers troops

ok maybe its a language barrier , but considering it is impossible to do a puri army without crow and he is cheap . How is he not "I need to this guy in my army" ? Also how is a GM better in a GK army using puris[specialy as it is then limited to max 3 such units] , runing termis[fewer psycannons] or strikes[fewer psycannons] without any real point games [ sure strikes are cheaper but a master costs then crow. and both armies can use an identical second HQ].

First of all, you don't need to be sarcastic with me.

 

Second of all, I'm just saying that Crowe is a crap character compared to the rest of the codex. I was saying that Crowe turns me away from making a purifier list because of how bad he is, not that you can make a purifier spam list without him.

 

Cortez is only good if someone wants to use henchman and even there he is a tax just like crow.

Crynn pretty much summed up how I feel about Coteaz. He does and insane amount of things for very little the cost. Sanctuary, a cheap Hammerhand, makes units stubborn, helps you keep the first turn if you get it or helps you try and take it, and makes you unload on their turn if they deep strike near you for 100 points? Oh, and he makes henchmen scoring. It is beyond me how you could even compare him to Crowe.

[Brother Valerius]

He is 150 points and nothing really makes me go "wow, I need this guy in my army." The only reason I would take him is because he makes Purifiers troops

ok maybe its a language barrier , but considering it is impossible to do a puri army without crow and he is cheap . How is he not "I need to this guy in my army" ? Also how is a GM better in a GK army using puris[specialy as it is then limited to max 3 such units] , runing termis[fewer psycannons] or strikes[fewer psycannons] without any real point games [ sure strikes are cheaper but a master costs then crow. and both armies can use an identical second HQ].

First of all, you don't need to be sarcastic with me.

 

Second of all, I'm just saying that Crowe is a crap character compared to the rest of the codex. I was saying that Crowe turns me away from making a purifier list because of how bad he is, not that you can make a purifier spam list without him.

 

I doubt Jeske was trying to be sarcastic. That's not really his style.

 

I also agree with what he's saying: it's rather unfair to say that nothing makes one go "wow, I need to take Crowe in my army", when the very fact that he makes Purifiers troops is a "wow, I need to take Crowe in my army" factor. You might say that this doesn't appeal to you (which is fair), but the same can be said of any HQ unit. Every HQ has extremely strong points which will not appeal to some players... but that does not discount that those are extremely strong points in their favor. If I happen to not feel the need to have Grand Strategy, is it reasonable for me to say that the GM is a bad HQ choice and that he has no appealing characteristics?

[Alpha PTP]

He is 150 points and nothing really makes me go "wow, I need this guy in my army." The only reason I would take him is because he makes Purifiers troops

ok maybe its a language barrier , but considering it is impossible to do a puri army without crow and he is cheap . How is he not "I need to this guy in my army" ? Also how is a GM better in a GK army using puris[specialy as it is then limited to max 3 such units] , runing termis[fewer psycannons] or strikes[fewer psycannons] without any real point games [ sure strikes are cheaper but a master costs then crow. and both armies can use an identical second HQ].

First of all, you don't need to be sarcastic with me.

 

Second of all, I'm just saying that Crowe is a crap character compared to the rest of the codex. I was saying that Crowe turns me away from making a purifier list because of how bad he is, not that you can make a purifier spam list without him.

I also agree with what he's saying: it's rather unfair to say that nothing makes one go "wow, I need to take Crowe in my army", when the very fact that he makes Purifiers troops is a "wow, I need to take Crowe in my army" factor. You might say that this doesn't appeal to you (which is fair), but the same can be said of any HQ unit. Every HQ has extremely strong points which will not appeal to some players... but that does not discount that those are extremely strong points in their favor. If I happen to not feel the need to have Grand Strategy, is it reasonable for me to say that the GM is a bad HQ choice and that he has no appealing characteristics?

His ability to make purifiers troops is pretty much his only semi-appealing ability. If he has other strong points, I am all ears because I just don't see it. He is mediocre in close combat and does nothing outside of close combat because if you want to walk him around, he is lascannon food. He is also a niche character, while GM's can do a variety of things. GM's have more wounds, Psychic Communion, Grand Strategy, Servo Skulls, and grenades while Crowe can make purifiers scoring and sit there with his thumbs up his ass on the board unless you are willing to put him at risk. Crowe is the price one must pay to make purifiers troops.

 

I'm not being sarcastic towards you or Jeske, so I really hope you two don't take it that way.

[benmothershaw]

Crowes ability in combat is pretty good although getting that oppurtunity to get him in combat can be a 'challange' he's solo and doesn't synergize in an army very well which gives him less reliability and less appeal.

Purifiers rely on transports for speed (getting into the 24" range), lack an invulnerable save too.

 

 

Draigo's pretty cool, lacks grenades and servo-skulls though.

[Something Wycked]

I have an 1850pt tournament upcoming, and am debating using Grey Knights. Looking over the various builds, I am tinkering with using either Draigowing or Crowe Purifier spam. I'm sure that this has been debated heavily in the past, but searches only seem to turn up batreps of the two forces clashing. Any input on which might make a more competitive force, or a link to earlier discussion of the same, would be appreciated.

Personally, I would advocate a mixed list (like Crynn's) if you're good with tactically flexible and diverse armies. Handled correctly, it has a much better chance of winning than Draigowing or Purispam.

 

That said, Draigowing is cheap to buy, fast to build and paint, plays turns quickly, and can be very effective. Between Draigowing and Purispam, I'd pick Draigowing. Its only real weakness is large numbers of S8+ or AP2- weapons.

 

crowe is worth his points. because they are not many

 

if crowe would have grand strategy.. that would be awesome.. hes the leader of the purifier brotherhood afterall....

He's the Brotherhood Champion, not a Grand Master. Brotherhood Champions get the various sword stances- and he has those. Putting TGS on him doesn't fit the fluff and would require that he cost more points.

 

If he has other strong points, I am all ears because I just don't see it. He is mediocre in close combat and does nothing outside of close combat because if you want to walk him around, he is lascannon food.

He really isn't mediocre in close combat. If he's going up against an IC or MC, he goes first, getting 2-4 attacks at I10, probably hits on 3+, and rends on 4+. If he doesn't kill the target with the attacks and then goes down himself, he takes the IC or MC down with him. If he's going up against a squad of 10 or more, he uses the defensive stance to reroll all failed saves and Cleansing Flame to deal his combat damage- likely winning combat and either forcing Fearless saves or having a chance at running the whole unit down. Not bad for a single non-MC model, eh?

 

That said, getting him into combat is problematic; paying 200-260 points for an Assault Ramp isn't worth it, he can steal a Rhino/Razor from another unit but then they're walking. One thing that has worked for me is running him behind another unit's Rhino, so LoS to him is completely blocked off and therefore he can't be shot.

 

He definitely has his uses, but he isn't an easymode character.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Algaroth, my list: (im on vacation so i dont have points costs, but pull out your codex and sum it up, it all should be 2k.

 

Grand Master (Sword and psychotroke grens)

 

Librarian (Warding Staff [the only unit who needs it, in my opinion], sword, MoT, Quickening, Warp Rift)

 

8 purifiers (5 halberds, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons)

 

10 Strike Squad (4 halberds, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolt)

Razerback (TL AC with psybolt)

 

10 Terms (2 psycannons, 1 hammer, idr mix of sword/halberd since they are free, psybolt)

 

Stormraven (plasma cannon and multi-melta)

 

Land Raider

 

Dreadnought (2 TL Autocannons and psybolt)

 

I put one of the HQ's with the puris, sometimes both, cause then they are fearless and i am so sick of having my guys run from bs tankshocks (bull sh*t, not ballistic skill). That way that whole unit can run in the Raven. otherwise, one HQ goes with half of the terms in the raven and the other goes with puris in the raider. i DS the half of termies with both psycannons into the backfield or into hot zones, and i CS the strikes, the psycannons sit on home while the halberds and hammer roll up. For GS, if its KP, you can bet i use that reroll 1's. Its AMAZING!! Counter attack is useful too, and while i dont use it much, when i ran intereptors the scouting rule was amazingly versatile wth them.

 

 

Also, note that i only run 8 purifiers, thats all. Not 20, 30, whatever, you wanna know why? cause in the grim dark future of the 41st millenium, fluff says theres rarely more than a dozen, and if theres ever more than 2 dozen, they know something VERY BAD is coming. but i doubt it ever sees 40 or 50 brothers in its ranks, people!!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can really spam psycannons with Puris. It is seriously disgusting amount of firepower.

 

G ;)