Paladins vs Purifiers

[Something Wycked]

You can really spam psycannons with Puris. It is seriously disgusting amount of firepower.

Paladins can be more efficient on a points-per-moving-Psycannon-shot basis, if a transport is bought for the Purifiers.

 

10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, Rhino: 320 points for 8 Psycannon shots on the move.

 

5 Paladins, 2 Psycannons: 315 points for 8 Psycannon shots on the move.

 

Obviously this won't always be true, but its something to keep in mind if all you want is Psycannon firepower.

[nurglez]

What's so bad about taking Draigo, 8-15 paladins, 10-20 purifiers with rhinos/razorbacks, and some Psyrifle dreads/dks. Taking solodins can help make several cheap scoring units, and while maybe 2 transports isn't great for armour saturation, they might get you close enough or to provide cover...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are a couple of articles from my blog on Paladins versus Purifiers and spamming psycannons:

 

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/08/g...t-paladins.html

 

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/06/g...pam-ver-20.html

 

 

G :)

[Something Wycked]

The second listed "article" is just an army list; the numbers in the first one agree with what I said above, while you came to a different conclusion based on personal preference. For effectively the same cost, Paladins double the Psycannon output of Purifiers.

[breng77]

I'm not seeing how they double the output for the same cost (unless you are assuming the purifiers are staying mounted and moving.)

 

10 Purifiers w/4 psycannons have 8 shots while moving, so do 5 Paladins. IF they are mounted and moving this is only 4 shots. However, if they are unmounted and standing still they have 16 shots.

 

Point for point (in general) purifiers shoot better than paladins (more storm bolters, and more psycannons for the points. They come up short on Durability, and are not as strong against most opponents in close combat.

[Something Wycked]

I'm not seeing how they double the output for the same cost (unless you are assuming the purifiers are staying mounted and moving.)

Apologies- I shouldn't assume that everyone will read the blog posts linked. The units that BO is comparing in his blog has the Purifiers with only 2 Psycannons. So, in reference to him and his blog post, the Paladins double the Psycannon output of the Purifiers.

 

Point for point (in general) purifiers shoot better than paladins (more storm bolters, and more psycannons for the points. They come up short on Durability, and are not as strong against most opponents in close combat.

The number of Stormbolters isn't in contention- all that was brought up was Psycannons :confused: And as I said earlier:

 

You can really spam psycannons with Puris. It is seriously disgusting amount of firepower.

Paladins can be more efficient on a points-per-moving-Psycannon-shot basis, if a transport is bought for the Purifiers.

 

10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, Rhino: 320 points for 8 Psycannon shots on the move.

 

5 Paladins, 2 Psycannons: 315 points for 8 Psycannon shots on the move.

 

Obviously this won't always be true, but its something to keep in mind if all you want is Psycannon firepower.

[breng77]

True in his example of Paladins vs Purifiers, (where you buy more than 5 purifiers and only give them 2 psycannons) then the paladins perform better. However, that (other than comparing units you actually decide to put in your list) Does not make for a very effective point for point analysis of a unit. As far as psycannon shots Point for point Paladins cannot outperform Purifiers. They get a whole lot of other good stuff for the extra points but if we are simply looking at psycannon shots. So while your very narrow example is true (Paladins are more points efficient when moving, if the purifiers are mounted, and remain mounted to shoot.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I felt my choices for the Purifier unit is optimal in terms of versatility. In my opinion you don't need two psycannons in each Purifier squad.

 

G :confused:

[Something Wycked]

As far as psycannon shots Point for point Paladins cannot outperform Purifiers.

How do you figure? I've shown it mathematically- the Paladins are 5 points more efficient ;) (/cough - while moving. :lol: )

 

They get a whole lot of other good stuff for the extra points but if we are simply looking at psycannon shots. So while your very narrow example is true (Paladins are more points efficient when moving, if the purifiers are mounted, and remain mounted to shoot.)

I don't see that the example is all that narrow- I didn't even penalize the Purifiers' amount of Psycannon shots for remaining inside their Rhino. The simple facts are these: Purifiers are not resilient enough to footslog across the board, while Paladins are, nor can Purifiers Deep Strike, while Paladins can. Therefore Purifiers require a transport purchased for them both for protection and mobility, while the Paladins require no such expenditure. The only occasion in which Purifiers will provide more Psycannon firepower for the points than Paladins is if they use a turn standing immobile- this is not happening while they are in their Rhino, nor is it happening the turn they disembark from their Rhino or if they have to reposition after leaving their Rhino.

 

I wouldn't expect Purifiers to have greater Psycannon output on more than one or two turns per game unless your battle plan involves driving the Purifiers to midfield, disembarking them, and then keeping them stationary for the rest of the game- and that is a specialized use of Purifiers. I would expect to see little to no melee weapon upgrades on the Purifiers who are not carrying Psycanons since they are being fielded as a mid-range Devastator unit. If this is the intent- a stationary midfield unit just for extra Psycannon shots- then Purgators may do better, since they are even more points efficient.

 

I felt my choices for the Purifier unit is optimal in terms of versatility. In my opinion you don't need two psycannons in each Purifier squad.

I think you meant "don't need four Psycannons in each Purifier squad." ;) But I certainly respect your personal needs for the Purifiers- I'm a big fan of tailoring your units to your specific needs. (My army builds are certainly unorthodox :P ) However, you cited the blog post as support for your statement that "You can really spam psycannons with Puris. It is seriously disgusting amount of firepower." Including only 2 Psycannons per 10 Purifiers isn't "spamming" them on any level :)

[breng77]

It depends on what you want their role in your list to be. I'm not saying your choices are right or wrong, just that if what you want are cheap psycannons for spaming the order of points efficiency (in general) of units are. (not includign transports because they are not mandatory, and are themselves separate units. In addition it does not change anything as far as points efficiency (except to make strikes worse than termies on the move.)

 

If moving

 

Purgation squad (22.5 points per psycannon shot)

Purifier squad (35 points per psycannon shot)

Paladins (39.375 points per psycannon shot)

Strike Squad (55 points per psycannon Shot)

Termies(56.25 points per shot)

 

IF standing still

 

Purgation Squad(11.25 points per shot)

Purifier squad (17.5 points per shot)

Strike Squad (27.5 points per shot)

Paladins (39.375 points per shot)

Termies (56.25 points per shot)

 

SO what this tells us is that for the point of getting psycannons on the table Purgation Squads and Purifiers squads are kings as far as points efficiency is concerned. This does not make them better overall units, but if your goal is to get psycannons on the table, you will get more shots per point.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah I meant "don't need four".

 

G :D

[Something Wycked]

To be clear, these aren't my choices breng; I'm just throwing information out there :huh: I disagree that naked model costs should be considered the standard for comparison. For real values, transport costs should be factored in where applicable (ie, on the models in PA rather than TDA). In 5th edition, PA just does not have the flexibility or staying power of TDA to go without some form of added protection or mobility.

 

Even then, the tabletop application of each unit will affect its points value efficiency; Paladins might be valued less than Purifiers due to time spent out of range of the opponent due to 6" movement range or time spent in Reserve, waiting to Deep Strike. Purifiers might be valued less than Paladins due to their reduced rate of fire while moving, added transport cost, reduced firepower while embarked, turns spent moving into range, etc.

 

Different strokes for different folks and different roles for different units; Paladins will Deep Strike into range and unleash hell on the enemy or slow march across the board to do the same. Strikes, Purgators and Purifiers will get mech'ed up and roll out to strategic positions onto the board; Strikes and Purgators will hang back from the serious combat, while the Purifiers will charge in headfirst alongside the Paladins.

[breng77]

The problem is that it is your opinion that Foot PA is unplayable. In addition even adding transports still has Purifiers and Purgation squads ahead of paladins as far as points per psycannon shot. The assumption is that 10 Purifiers in a Rhino are less points efficient than a 5 man paladin squad on foot. This is true. However, 5 purifiers in the same rhino are more points efficient per shot. Purifiers need not charge in along side paladins as they are a perfectly viable shooting unit hanging back with strikes and purgators.)

 

I would assert though that you could make an effective Psycannon spam army with 60 purifiers on foot with 4 psycannons for every 10 models. While a single PA squad is not durable, 60 of them certainly is (especially when those 60 bodes fan fire 96 S7 shots per turn, form 24"

[Something Wycked]

I didn't say footslogging PA is unplayable... I said "PA just does not have the flexibility or staying power of TDA to go without some form of added protection or mobility." TDA is more flexible than PA on foot due to typically having the ability to equip both a special melee weapon and a heavy weapon, as well as the Relentless rule. TDA has more staying power than PA; 2+/5++ is better than 3+. Paladins in particular embody this characteristic with their 2 wounds, wound-allocation shenanigans, and potential FnP.

 

But, yes, that is my opinion. :D PA needs protection and/or mobility in 5th edition. Whether that means you plunk them down behind cover, so they have a 3+/4++ against shooting, or stuff them in a transport, or make them Jump Infantry is up to personal preference. A PA unit is dealt 30 wounds and dies; a TDA unit doubles that, dealt 60 wounds and dies; Paladins without FnP can be dealt 60 wounds and still not have lost a single model.

 

In addition even adding transports still has Purifiers and Purgation squads ahead of paladins as far as points per psycannon shot.

If you assume that units are stationary when firing, this entire statement is true. If you assume that units are moving, this is untrue for Purifiers vs. Paladins. I of course will hand it to you that Purgations are more points efficient per Psycannon shot than Paladins, but I never even insinuated otherwise ^_^ You brought units other than Purifiers and Paladins into this discussion. I was avoiding doing that, because the OP wants a discussion on Purifiers vs. Paladins.

 

However, 5 purifiers in the same rhino are more points efficient per shot.

Only half true.

5 Puris, 2 Psycannons, Rhino: 180 points. Psycannon shots: 8 stationary, 4 moving (22.5 per, 45 per)

5 Paladins, 2 Psycannons: 315 points. Psycannon shots: 8. (39.375 per)

 

Paladins are still more efficient when the squads are moving.

 

Purifiers need not charge in along side paladins as they are a perfectly viable shooting unit hanging back with strikes and purgators.)

Of course they need not, but they can. Purifiers are the premier PA-equipped assault unit in the codex. If you want to roll assault in PA, Purifiers are the way to do it unless you absolutely need the mobility of Interceptors.

 

I would assert though that you could make an effective Psycannon spam army with 60 purifiers on foot with 4 psycannons for every 10 models. While a single PA squad is not durable, 60 of them certainly is (especially when those 60 bodes fan fire 96 S7 shots per turn, form 24"

I would assert that such an army would be highly situational; it doesn't have any mobility nor range. Without those two, you engage only at the enemy's terms. Mechdar and DEldar can dance out of range and pepper it at will. IG parking lots will leafblower it off the table. Chaos with Lash princes and 9 Oblits will tear it apart, as will Space Wolves with 3x6 Long Fangs, etc, etc, etc.

[breng77]

I would assert that with proper terrain none of what you say will typically occur. Staying out of 30" range bubble is tough on a 6" x 4" table. If there is a good amount of LOS blocking terrain or cover neither IG nor Chaos will deal enough damage early to stop said army. Lash Princes for example will get to attempt to lash 1 unit 1 time prior to being shot off the table, then you are relying on oblits to to plasma the units off the table. If there is any cover then this simply won't happen fast enough. IG if the terrain is wide open will, I admit likely shoot you off the table. That said, most IG builds I see would have trouble doing so as they don't bring lots of long range AP 3 or better guns (Lots of Mantacores, and Hydras, so you are looking at 3 Vendettas which will kill at most 9 marines per turn. Everything else pretty much is 24" or less, which means they are taking return fire. I'm not saying the list is unbeatable or even optimal but killing 60 fearless power armored bodies is hard for any list, especially when those bodies can be in up to 12 squads, so any one units shooting can only affect 5 of those bodies at a time, or in 10 man squads where dealing enough wounds to actually take away psycannons is difficult. (18 long fangs kill on average one 10 man squad per turn if there is no cover on that squad, so if untouched they can kill the army in a 6 turn game, if there is cover or LOS blocking terrain it will take them twice as long.)

 

As for paladins absorbing 60 wounds with no losses this is only true if none of those wounds are S8 Ap1/2, against those shots Paladins are less survivable than PA purifiers. Look at it this way at 2k points you can put 20 paladins (give or take) on the table, or 60 purifiers. The paladins will take 240 Non AP 2/S8 wounds to kill, 60 purifiers will take 180., so 60 fewer wounds.

[nurglez]

TBH, the real question is down to playing style. purifier spam favours rhinos/razorbacks, while paladin spam favours footslogging, and lower model count.

 

Both builds are viable. Draigo, 15 paladins with 6 psycannons and only 2 models in the 10 man unit equipped the same,(this is a staple of my force, and all the paladins I own), is 1240 points. leaving a few points for either cheap scoring units or killy killy stuff (I love paladins).

 

You can get into a math hammer over who is better, but playing style effects a lot, and is not played in a vacuum :P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Math hammer is good to check out the potential performance of an army list but like you said its devoid of many actual gaming conditions so can only go so far towards designing a solid army list. There is no substitute for gaming experience.

 

G ^_^

[Grand Master Caloth]

I notice one thing about the arguments on both sides, and that is the assumption of psycannons. (btw, Algorath, i made a mistake., my puris have 2 incinerators, not psycannons, which is leading into me reason for this post)

 

 

 

IMHO, this comparison cannot be done correctly based on the use of psycannons, as not all situations or armies will use them. IMVHO, this should be done on the MOST BASIC level, i.e. 5 or 10-man squads, STANDARD ISSUE (SB and NFS). mano-e-mano, the palis come out in that they have term armor and 2 wounds, however, the puris are cheaper and are fearless, which is a huge thing in the codex (note that, if i recall correctly, they are the only GK unit with fearless). Puris have the cleansing flame, which is tremendous against hordes, while palis have holocaust (i think?? again, on vaca and dont have my dex *curses the airlines for check bag fees*). Each has solid merits, they balance one another out. it all depends on:

 

1) the tactical situation, if you build lists right before a game and know what you are facing,

 

and 2) what you want to build your force around. They are like interceptors. not everyone will use them, nor will the people that DO use them necessarily use them in the same fashion (note: mine run 8 deep with 2 free incinerators). There is no right or wrong answer, no "this unit will always be better". Standard equipment, they are balanced. For special weapons, yes, the puris pay for halberds, but only 2 pts each, and palis already outcost the PA puris. What role do you want your elites to fill? Figure out what you need them to do, then make your choice of assets.

 

 

 

By His most holy guidance

 

GMC

[AnImA8]

Yea I would also like to see a more holistic approach to this discussion, because while Psycannons are amazingly good now, they're not the end-all-be-all of building an army list. As someone who dabbled in mathematics in college I personally have no desire to design a list on a points-per-shot basis (though obviously if you're so inclined then go for it lol)

 

What I find really interesting about the two units is their abilities. For instance, does anyone else find it rather amusing that I COULD (not necessarily suggesting this for tournament play but I could) take 3x solodins and just drop pie-plates all day, complementing the rest of my army lol. Or the fact that even a SINGLE purifier is trouble for Orks since it only takes one to get off a Cleansing Flame and wreak havoc on an entire squad. These things interest me greatly.

 

It seems clear to me that more than anything else Paladins are about 'defense' and Purifiers are about 'offense' to put it loosely. Both are extremely good in assault and in shooting. Both can take more Incinerators/Psycannons than their 'normal' counterparts, and Paladins have WS 5 for assault, while Purifiers have CF and cheap access to assault-oriented weapons. But it's pretty obvious that it takes a lot to kill a Paladin whereas it takes as much to kill a Purifier as it does for any other marine. So for me at least, that's how I'll be using them. Pali's to hold my objectives, and Purifiers to take them.

 

-AnImA8

[breng77]

Purifiers really (unless you are just kitting them for assault with no shooting weapons) are really not that great in the assault in my experience (i.e. sure they beat tac marines, and other basic units, but against dedicated assault units they tend to struggle a bit.) They are not bad by any means, but having only WS 4 hurts as they tend to miss a good deal of the time.

[AnImA8]

I've seen other comments like what you just said made a few times before on other forums, and I'm always a little perplexed by it. I can understand comparing Purifiers to other assault units statistically, but I don't think that they should assault those other units unless the situation literally requires it. I'm not trying to come off as being insulting or anything but I've always found that I should assault dedicated shooting units and shoot dedicated assault units. And that's not just for GK's either, that should be with any army. And I understand: not every situation is within our control and it's possible they could get their dedicated assault unit in combat with our purifiers somehow; but for the reasons I just gave I don't think a comparison of our dedicated assault units to other armies dedicated assault units is that useful...

 

-AnImA8

[breng77]

I agree with your idea in premise, however, in application you often don't have a choice in the matter. Purifiers to me are good all around combat troops. Which can shoot the assault units and assault the weaker units. As such I don't consider them assault units, but more as reactive units.

[Brother Valerius]

Purifiers really (unless you are just kitting them for assault with no shooting weapons) are really not that great in the assault in my experience (i.e. sure they beat tac marines, and other basic units, but against dedicated assault units they tend to struggle a bit.) They are not bad by any means, but having only WS 4 hurts as they tend to miss a good deal of the time.

 

I don't think WS4 disqualifies them. There are units that are almost universally considered great assault units (assault termies, for example) that only have WS4. Purifiers aren't as good as DCA, but they're capable enough in assault imo.

[breng77]

THe issue with comparing them to assault termies is that they lack the durability of that unit. Assault termies can deal with having WS 4 because they can last through a longer combat due to their saves. Purifiers don't have this option for them it comes down to can they do enough damage prior to getting hit to minimize their losses. Now if the unit is 10 strong with mostly halberds (maybe a hammer or 2) then they can probably compete because 16-27 I6 PW swings will kill a lot of things. The issue is that if you want them to be a good shooting unit they won't have this set up. IN addition even with 16 PW attacks they miss half of those, and wound 1/2-2/3rds of that. I'm just going off my experience and expectation that they would hold up against certain units in HtH and then having them hit slightly below average, and end up dealing 2 or 3 wounds. SO while WS4 does not disqualify them, it hurts when they also only have a 3+ save, and 2 attacks.

[AnImA8]

Well I personally tend to bring a Librarian with Quickening and between 7-9 Purifiers with Falchions (the others could be a mix of Incinerators/Psycannons/NDH's). So you're talking about a lot of I10 PW attacks, and that's not even counting Cleansing Flame. It may not be the best out there but I consider that a dedicated assault unit, especially by GK standards.

 

-AnImA8