I really gotta ask...

[Vinadir]

Why is it that people who play space wolves have a tendency to give every squad the same load out, the same wolf guard battle leader, the same transport and never take blood claws. Does everyone seriously skip over the part of the codex that talks about the flavor of the army and how these guys like to do stuff?

 

Every army list I see come up is all got the same sort of build and nobody ever seems to have the guts to take blood claws. They are all flavorless, boring, vanilla marine lists with space wolf special rules.... Seriously, where is the fun? I love to win, but why cant people take a "flavorful" list and still perform well? It does not make any sense to me. Everyones wolf guard are always the same cookie cutter load out, four units of grey hunters with the same things and in a rhino, three units of long fangs all with the exact same weapons.... I guess I just dont unterstand the appeal of playing an army that goes 100% against the intention of its play style. Can someone help me here? ;) :sick: :lol:

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Due to the fact that us wolves have a tier 1 codex, it tends to enhance the competitive nature of the army in ways like that which you have described. But I would say that we are far from a boring, stagnant bunch. If you go to the SW army lists you'll see what I mean. We do have a great troop choice in the Grey Hunters, and for some of us, that is worth running a thousand times over when given a choice between them and Blood Claws.

 

As a long time Magic the Gathering player, I have seen these things you commented about for years. In the MtG world, it's called 'net decking'. Finding the optimal list that has proven itself highly competitive and running it for that reason, and that reason only. As I mentioned above, with a codex and units like we have you really can build a vicious aggressive army. But not all of us choose to go that route, just as every Blood Angel player doesn't run a Mephiston Mech list. :P

 

End of Line

[Aeddon]

I don't do any of that with my army. I also take Bloodclaws, frequently. I take units with completely different load outs. I only take one unit of Longfangs, each carrying a different weapon. I only ever take one Rhino and I've never taken Thunderwolves.

 

So next time you decide to post a thread in the Fang, how about you try approaching it with a little more tact instead of making baseless accusations. Especially when making all inclusive comments like "Why is it that people who play space wolves...".

 

So you wanna try that again?

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

So next time you decide to post a thread in the Fang, how about you try approaching it with a little more tact instead of making baseless accusations. Especially when making all inclusive comments like "Why is it that people who play space wolves...".

 

So you wanna try that again?

 

This...

 

Honestly mate, no one is stopping you from playing them the way you want to. And you will find that in order to do well in tournaments against similarly skilled opponents, one has to take an army that performs well otherwise there's no hope, and it isn't only space wolves who do that.

 

I make a point of including units in my army that most people think are rubbish (but I have found to work marvelously well for me): swift claws. And I am yet to take any long fangs (I don't even own any). And there IS a fair bit of variation between competitive lists out there, it's just that the core of the army - grey hunters - are too good to pass up, and being different for its own sake is no more praiseworthy than taking what has proven to be a very good unit.

 

And exactly what were you trying to achieve with this question anyway?

[skoll]

all i see is a troll trying to start trouble. If anything we've seen that the people here at the fang like to build very diverse lists, with anything and everything our codex has to offer.

[Kassill]

all i see is a troll trying to start trouble. If anything we've seen that the people here at the fang like to build very diverse lists, with anything and everything our codex has to offer.

 

 

 

Troll!?! Time to grab your axes boys, there's a troll that needs to be slain! First blood gets ale on me!

 

 

But seriously, not all of us run straight hardcore, no fluff lists. I am personally of the in between. I like my troops to be fairly good and be able to do the roles I need them to do, while I spend alot of my time in fluffy, yet expensive, HQs and such.

 

But that's just me. :D

[Lord Ragnarok]

This is not unique to SW's. Every dex out there has ways to make them efficient or very fluffy. Lot's of players play for different reasons. You can't expect a player to take a fluffy list to a tourney, but you should expect your local gaming group to have events which cater to the fluff. (or join another group).

[Hfran Morkai]

A Space Wolf will use the tools that are available, and most importantly, effective to achieve his goals. But we're individuals and will do our own thing.

 

For instance, my planned 750 list is 9 Blood Claws, 6 Grey Hunters, 5 Scouts, 5 Long Fangs (with a mix of weapons) and a Rune Priest (without Jaws) slogging across the board.

 

Why does my list look like that? Because it fits the idea of my force, they're pathfinders so on foot and have a good range of capabilities, for you never know what you might end up fighting.

[HB66]

I gotta agree with you Rune_Priest.....

I played alotta magic to and for tournaments and such you just see alot of one particular army build, its just the way it is. Me personally though.....i love Bloodclaws and love to cram Land Raiders and rhinos full of them and hit my enemy with a giant wave. Bloodclaws may have worse stats than a GreyHunter....but if you put 12 Bloodclaws in a Land Raider Crusader with your Wolf Lord.....WOW!!! man do they hit like a ton of bricks.

 

HB66

[Wulfebane]

I fail to see how NOT taking Blood Claws constitutes as not being fluffy. Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and all other non-BC units are just as fluffy in regards to what it means to be a Wolf.

 

As to why they're not taken as often... we're Wolves, not Marines. When it matters and the job needs getting done right, we prefer to take our best, not our fresh recruits, which is exactly what our Blood Claws are. Unlike marines, we don't leaving reconnaissance to the rookies.

 

Same load-outs? Grey Hunters are cheap, versatile, considered one of (if not THE) best tac units in the game. They're played in many ways, from pack size to meltas/plasmas/flamers and any mix of the three. They get battle standards, wulfen PER pack, pfists, power weapons, damn near everything you can throw at a tac marine, but the reason you see the same stuff over and over is that it's a cost of efficiency. Most players have found the right ratio for what works FOR THEM, and they're most often all different based on the player's style. However, overloading a GH pack with wargear points is begging to get them targeted. Keep them light, lean, and hungry, imo.

 

As to the Long Fangs, sure you have your missile-spammers, but I suggest you get out more and/or find a new store to play at, b/c we love to toss some heavy bolters and plasma in the mix.

 

Wolf Guard Pack leaders. A leader with better stats/leadership, a nearly free melta shot and a powerfist that is 2 pts cheaper than it would've been on a Grey Hunter? Why the hell wouldn't we do this?? Not to mention, if we like our WG with heavy weapons, having a WGPL bumps our numbers toward having a second cyclone, etc. Other than packleaders, (and they differ essentially on fist vs sword or plasma vs melta) I can't think of a single person that makes their WG packs "cookie cutter". The beauty of WG packs is how diverse you can make them for the purposes of wound allocation.

 

Not to mention how I witness so many people (both abroad and through stories here) using "fluffy" units such as BCs, Skyclaws, Swiftclaws, TWC (a TON), fen. wolves for IC retinues, scouts (EVERYWHERE), and lone wolves.... not to mention our HQ, in which in every single one, I can't count anyone who doesn't have a fanfic backstory to support their personal conversions.

 

tl;dr - go troll the grey knights.

[Forté]

WE ARE NOT FLUFFY!!!!!!!

 

We're hairy!!!

 

As for cookie cutter lists. Tell that to Littlebitz. He takes lists which I would never put together and pounds the hell out of people.

 

As for myself. Working on Bjorn Stormwolf GC. I'll be using no scouts, Vindicators, Swiftclaws and arming my WG in a variety of ways.

 

Now get the drinks in. It's only manners.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Why is it that people who play space wolves have a tendency to give every squad the same load out, the same wolf guard battle leader, the same transport and never take blood claws. Does everyone seriously skip over the part of the codex that talks about the flavor of the army and how these guys like to do stuff?

 

Every army list I see come up is all got the same sort of build and nobody ever seems to have the guts to take blood claws. They are all flavorless, boring, vanilla marine lists with space wolf special rules.... Seriously, where is the fun? I love to win, but why cant people take a "flavorful" list and still perform well? It does not make any sense to me. Everyones wolf guard are always the same cookie cutter load out, four units of grey hunters with the same things and in a rhino, three units of long fangs all with the exact same weapons.... I guess I just dont unterstand the appeal of playing an army that goes 100% against the intention of its play style. Can someone help me here? :P :sick: :)

 

It;s not a Space Wolf trait it's all across the game. Every army has cookie cookie lists that ignore the fluff, it comes down to tournament, win-at-all-costs playstyles. I'm an old vet, been playing 40k for two decades now and I've seen the rise of the tournamnet list and the cookie-cutter optisation over the years.

[Aeddon]

Here's another thought. Why not ask these people that you keep running across why they build their lists that way. I know, I know, trolling isn't as fun in person but you might actually get an answer to your question.

[greatcrusade08]

i know im not a mod or a regular here, but its a fair question, i dont think its fair or polite to accuse someone of being a troll.

a false accusation like that could be deemed flaiming could it not?

 

Why is it that people who play space wolves have a tendency to give every squad the same load out, the same wolf guard battle leader, the same transport and never take blood claws. Does everyone seriously skip over the part of the codex that talks about the flavor of the army and how these guys like to do stuff?

 

Every army list I see come up is all got the same sort of build and nobody ever seems to have the guts to take blood claws. They are all flavorless, boring, vanilla marine lists with space wolf special rules.... Seriously, where is the fun? I love to win, but why cant people take a "flavorful" list and still perform well? It does not make any sense to me. Everyones wolf guard are always the same cookie cutter load out, four units of grey hunters with the same things and in a rhino, three units of long fangs all with the exact same weapons.... I guess I just dont unterstand the appeal of playing an army that goes 100% against the intention of its play style. Can someone help me here

 

The chaps experience shows him something different than the sampling here at the B&C, and tbh my own experience matches his..

it would be a mistake to accuse every wolf player of being 'boring, 'spam', 'cheese', 'MSU' whatever you want to call it, but he didnt do that here, he asks legitimate questions.

could it have been worded better... probably, but then not many of us are professors of the english language.

 

ive always said the space wolf dex is so varied and flavourful that theres no reason for every army i see to look so similar..

but others have hit the nail on the head, its about putting out a list that has the best chance of winning..

personally i see two issues with that.

a: its the mentality of WAAC gamers, its fine for tournaments but not everyone wants to play uber competative matches, everyones different so follow your local scene and play accordingly.

b: if its about winning games, why settle for the generic meta?

things like long fang missile spam are a no brainer, they are soo cheap its not even funny, and tbh it feels sometimes like they have broken the codex a bit.

if you want to beat the 'meta' take a list that exists outside the meta, the thing about running the same lists is that it gets boring, but not only that predictable..

what your opponent can predict he can counter, be unpredictable, you might like it :D

 

edit: before you bite my head off, i recognise everyone here has an individualistic approach to thier lists, i salute that.. but as i said, the lists and attitudes i see here are not reflected in the armies i face in my local games

[Nrthstar]

Is he a troll? Not techinically, but it feels pretty offensive to come in here the way he did just because he wants to complain about his local gaming community.

 

 

Odd that we have two of these folks in a weeks time, first twolf complaints, now a complaint about spam.

 

As to a proper response, my brothers have taken care of that already and my lists are no different. I favor my two dreadnoughts and my 2 long fang packs use plasmas, heavy bolter, lascannon and missile.

 

I play three different list types as much as possible. Footslogging power armor with twolves and land speeders, mech heavy with predators and dreads, and my loganwing.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Let the mods mod. If there is an issue use the report function please. Stay on topic.

 

No more trolling discussions. Trolling discussion will result in official warnings.

[Karack Blackstone]

I take what I take because I like it and it works. Let me elaborate.

 

In the SW Codex, certain units have better performance based on where their stats are when compared with other units. As such, among HQ's, Rune Priests and Wolf Priests seem to be best in terms of cost effectiveness. Between Elites, Wolf Scouts and Wolf Guard come out on top, not necessarily in that order for each person's list. Between the two Troops choices we have, Grey Hunters edge out Blood Claws due to having a better overall performance. Long Fangs also score high, and perform best with missiles. LF's also tend to underperform versus the newest of Codeci Armies since the AP 3 on a ML isn't good enough with kraks.

 

Since the Grey Hunter pack is overall a better performer, that pack is favored as far as the two Troop choices go. GH's are +1 WS, +1 BS, Same number of Attacks on charge as on counter-charge, fewer bodies, yet don't require a Wolf Priest to optimize the chances of getting hits on four dice per BC. GH's can excel with a WGPL with a Fist and BP, at least on paper. Combi-weapons make up for the second and free special weapon a 10-man GH pack would have.

 

After all this, the conclusion is that GH's are so great this edition that the discussion here has often revolved around whether or not GH's are possibly the best Troop choice this edition due to what they have, and how they can perform. While net-listing is frowned upon by pretty much everyone here, the issue really is that we got something good going for us in the new codex we received. That others can't easily get to it is just the way things work out: we as players have no further control over things than anyone outside of GW's Codex writers/authors.

 

GH's in a Rhino? That's fluffy to me at least, and should result in a fun game. GH's in any kind of Razorback? That's possibly a sign of a net-list; if there's nothing but GH's in Razorbacks, the list is likely based off the net (3 to 6 packs in a 1500 pt game). Even then, what is fluffy for one may not be so nice for another. We each build our lists to be solid, or perform as we as players want. The concern is when taking things for tourney performance outweighs what any given Wolf Lord would use. I have 4 packs of GH's (9 + WGPL) in my full 4500 pt force: Each has a single MG, a Fisted WG, and a PW more often than not. I don't consider that a net list, however, someone else might, simply because in their eyes there's too many of the same thing.

 

My reply would be that I am giving up a special weapon, taking my Fist on a more expensive model, and having a chance at performing well versus more opponents within the fluff of my Logan's Best force. As such, take everything as one will; it's the best way to go through life.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever to take BC's. I would have preferred GH's 2 points more expensive and BC's 2 pts less. In our previous dex, I even took BC's in my all DP force because it gave me bodies over taking the extra GH's, but now as they are the same cost, with lesser stats it just does not make sense at all. It is truly a handicap.

[Grimtooth]

BC have been releagated to building fluff lists only in my opinion due the same cost-less stats position they hold in the codex. The amount of additional points needed to make them effective (wolf guard/wolf priests/LR transport) just does not make sense when looking at a list that you are trying to builñd a cost/effective list.

 

For me personally, inclusion of BC in any of my lists means that I am looking to build a fun list where enjoying a characterful game is the goal. Any other time, I will be doing my regular comp lists.

[Hfran Morkai]

Yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever to take BC's. I would have preferred GH's 2 points more expensive and BC's 2 pts less. In our previous dex, I even took BC's in my all DP force because it gave me bodies over taking the extra GH's, but now as they are the same cost, with lesser stats it just does not make sense at all. It is truly a handicap.

 

No sense at all?

 

This makes me sad.

 

Grey Hunters can't throw out 60 attacks a turn. Grey Hunters can't throw down as many bodies in a single unit. Grey Hunters won't make your opponent give you a concerned look as they pile out of a Crusader led by a Wolf Priest.

 

Grey Hunters are too good in comparison, one area Kelly messed up. But they're still good.

[Karack Blackstone]

Why is it that people who play space wolves have a tendency to give every squad the same load out, the same wolf guard battle leader, the same transport and never take blood claws. Does everyone seriously skip over the part of the codex that talks about the flavor of the army and how these guys like to do stuff?

 

Every army list I see come up is all got the same sort of build and nobody ever seems to have the guts to take blood claws. They are all flavorless, boring, vanilla marine lists with space wolf special rules.... Seriously, where is the fun? I love to win, but why cant people take a "flavorful" list and still perform well? It does not make any sense to me. Everyones wolf guard are always the same cookie cutter load out, four units of grey hunters with the same things and in a rhino, three units of long fangs all with the exact same weapons.... I guess I just dont unterstand the appeal of playing an army that goes 100% against the intention of its play style. Can someone help me here? :wallbash: :sick: :confused:

 

Including my post above this one, please kindly add the following:

 

Fluff should have trumped all in our Codex build. It did, and yet, due to the very nice uses of select units as you note, there's little else that can do so much for so little. The very units that we Space Wolves should to some degree favor have lost some of the history and background behind them since in this new Codex, the core of what they do was so emphasized that there's little else to use, within reason.

 

Long Fangs:

- HB - Great against enemy hordes that can be spread out

- PC - Not a great use

- MM - Toss in Logan with Relentless, Pod and wham, something should die.

- ML - Cheap, effective (mostly) yet somewhat too common

- LC - Great against anything these days, range and very nice AP

 

Overall, for the cost it would take another unit to get them, ML spam likely developed since there's no real other weapon that is worth the LF's time. If I had written the Codex, ML's should be the same as a GH base.

 

Grey Hunters versus Blood Claws:

BC: BS3, WS3, 4 Atks on Charge, 3 on Counter-Attack, Headstrong/Berserk special rule (no shooting unless led)

GH: BS4, WS4, 3 Atks on Charge, 3 on Counter-Attack, Can either BP and charge or Bolter and Counter-Attack if charged.

 

In an Edition where shooting, mobility and general options are going to greatly aid a Wolf Lord, the GH edges ahead due to less chance of hitting on 5's, not needing a Death-Star unit (WP, WGPL w/ Fist, 14 BC's in a LRC) to make them work.

 

Wolf Guard:

Our base guys are cheaper than a standard Codex Marine, and come in near a Chaos Marine in terms of base. That we have so many options is nice, however it's mostly a problem of what does the job for any given Wolf Lord. Mine are kitted as all BP/Fists in one pack, and all TDA w/ WCx2 in another of six. Is that fluffy? For them, it gets the job done and helps the force. Logan wants his troops to perform and be able to do so at least rather well. The reason for the WC's is that it's an in-the-enemy's-face pack.

 

I could go on, however I do hope this additional breakdown is in some way clarifying why people are taking things that don't make sense in terms of the fluff.

[MeatGrinder]

Its not about fluff when it comes to competetive play. You build your units for a purpose. The space wolf dex is all about balance. Contrary to popular believe, we are not a CC army, we combine both firepower and cc power, without excelling too much in either. All my WGPLs are build to take down tanks and anything big and killy, with their pf/melta combo. There really is very few other ways to gear your leaders effectively.

 

On the subject of BCs, they cost the same as GH, bar their charge, they are inferior to GH in every way, less WS, BS, no bolters. I'd prefer a GH squad geared for combat then a blood claws squad.

[skoll]

on the subject of bloodclaws, in my opinion taking greyhunters over blood claws is fluffy.

 

Would you want your fresh raw recruits , who wont even shoot at the enemy for love of close combat on the field against mass tanks of traitor IG, the lighning fast dark eldar skimmers , the seasoned veterans of the ruinous powers? no you want your tough as nails grey hunters led by your most trusted men, Your wolf guard, seconds in command only to you the wolf lord. You know that the fight is going to be ripe with vehicles so it is easy to tell your long fangs to equip accordingly, however if you're to be facing an orc invasion then mass HB fire is required.

 

 

 

see i can justify lists with fluff ... at the end of the day you as the wolf lord know the meta game, which means translated to fluff that you have quiet an inkling as to what you might face in the field of battle, be it from previous encounters or because your rune priest has read it in the runes.

 

Perhaps my accusation of trolling was misguided or hasty. But it truly rises my ire when people come to a place and make baseless generalizations , when even a cursory read of our topics would have kindly informed them otherwise.

 

Also why does nobody take skyclaws? well clearly the bloodclaws have been behaving and there is no need to strap jetpacks on to them as punishment.

[Wysten]

Why is it that people who play space wolves have a tendency to give every squad the same load out, the same wolf guard battle leader, the same transport and never take blood claws. Does everyone seriously skip over the part of the codex that talks about the flavor of the army and how these guys like to do stuff?

 

Every army list I see come up is all got the same sort of build and nobody ever seems to have the guts to take blood claws. They are all flavorless, boring, vanilla marine lists with space wolf special rules.... Seriously, where is the fun? I love to win, but why cant people take a "flavorful" list and still perform well? It does not make any sense to me. Everyones wolf guard are always the same cookie cutter load out, four units of grey hunters with the same things and in a rhino, three units of long fangs all with the exact same weapons.... I guess I just dont unterstand the appeal of playing an army that goes 100% against the intention of its play style. Can someone help me here? :wallbash: :sick: ;)

 

Depends really, there are typically underlaying issues in many codexes.

 

First and foremost, Blood Claws are quite terrible units in compersion to Grey Hunters. Not in the endearing way that a space marine scout is a lesser version of a Space Marine, but still has it's uses (weaker armour and lacks most of the tools that makes tacticals decent, but there is simply no troop in that codex better at sitting on an objective and weathering considable fire)

 

But sadly, the blood claw has no real redeeming factor when compared directly to the Grey Hunter. For example:

 

Grey Hunters have WS/BS 4, Two special weapons in a maxed squad, two attacks each with bolters is a very unique charactersitic for a troops choice in this codex, aside from possibly Wolf Guard.

 

While Blood Claws lose a WS, BS, Bolters and their free special weapon unless you take 15 of them, something that won't fit in any transport aside from a Crusaider. They lose the option to take a Wolf standard and The Mark of the Wolven, just to gain +2 attacks on the charge instead of 1?

 

Grey Hunters meanwhile have all of these, so all in all, in most troop units, it's simply better practice to take Grey Hunters. They are superior, more duriable, more flexable and beyond the deathstar, more fun unit out of the codex. While I wouldn't be angry at anyone taking them I would recommend removing them from every list as theres nothing a blood claw can do that a Grey Hunter Squad cannot do better, unless one is willing to intentionally downgrade the quaility of their list with their inclusion.

 

This saddens me slightly, same with Skyclaws really as they are easily one of my favourate units, but is also horribly designed.

 

 

Wolf Guard can be customised, but again it comes down to some options being simply better then others. Power weapons are ok, Wolf Claws are Fantastic, Frost Blades are meh because it shares the same slot as Power Fists (which are fantastic.) and is generally a inferior weapon to Wolf Claws. Hammers are cool. But again most people will pick Fists because it does well against everything. Combi weapons are auto include as the extra special weapon is often forsaken to include him.

 

 

Long Fangs meanwhile became famous just simply because in the Mech heavy format, it's nessiary to have the means of supressing multiple mech at once, and considering how an army without mech is almost none existant nowadays (Tynards are the only codex without Mech, and they are one of the least competative 5th ed codex for design reasons and a terible FAQ) the abilitys to deal with one must be there. ML with the odd lascannon is the logical way forwards, easpically since there are so many marine armies out there that being able to instant kill a marine with a Kalk is a fairly big deal.

 

And it largely comes down to small things like this. Since our troops choice and heavy choice should always be simlar (e.g, it has to be a fairly good reason not to be.), and is often needed in great numbers that Space Wolves have to be designed in a simlar manner or give up actual ability. Its the way the codex is designed really, as variety is a false illusion if it makes a army weaker for it and using units for the sole purpose of being unique in games rarely bodes well unless theres a machanical function behind it (Skyclaws, Thunder Wolf, Lone Wolves, Dreadnorts are all examples of units that are not often used, but have some potencal). Though of course for fun games none of this is really a issue, just a case of figuring out your envioment and being flexable enough to play both ends of the spectra.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

When you say "fluffy" list you also have to be somewhat realistic going about writing it. Sure, Bran Redmaw (I believe that's him) may love to use flamers almost exclusively but that gives you a completely useless army as you'll stand no chance whatsoever against mechanized forces. In fluff it is certainly possible to fight like that, but then in fluff a space marine can jump on a Leman Russ, rip the hatch open and toss a handful of grenades inside and then sit on the hatch so no one can get out. My opponents never let me do that in a game of 40k, strangely enough.