I really gotta ask...

[the jeske]

things like long fang missile spam are a no brainer, they are soo cheap its not even funny, and tbh it feels sometimes like they have broken the codex a bit.

if you want to beat the 'meta' take a list that exists outside the meta, the thing about running the same lists is that it gets boring, but not only that predictable..

what your opponent can predict he can counter, be unpredictable, you might like it

yes of course because If I lets say take bikes in SW list and get 3-0 and go for the 4th game my opponent which will probably be the same will be so suprised by bike use that It will win me games more offten then runing LF. or maybe If I take a LR rush BC build he is totaly not going to know how to play against such a build and again more wins for me . Am I understanding this right ?

 

 

GH spam [very fluffy by the way GH are most SW anyway] is good because they are better then any other troop in the dex [which is more less BC and WG under logan + non scoring wolfs] . BC do not do assault better then them , in fact to be a bit better they have to be upgraded with an HQ[which then makes them cost more , and the HQ doesnt have the utilty of RP or the killiness of lords. so its taking a sub par HQ to buff a sub par unit] .

 

LF spam . Sure they die [what doesnt other then falcons?] , but they are so ultra cheap for what they do that it doesnt matter that DE are there or that necron have a lot of shots on long range . a 5RL unit or a 2las3RL unit is like oblits on crack for SW builds . they fit in to any build . they would even be viable in a drop pod list.

That's possibly a sign of a net-list; if there's nothing but GH's in Razorbacks, the list is likely based off the net (3 to 6 packs in a 1500 pt game).

you realy think that someone who reads the SW dex doesnt and doesnt have the Oh shiny mentality doesnt see [without any net help] that razorbacks+LF makes for a very good mobile gunline list ?

 

 

Grey Hunters can't throw out 60 attacks a turn

.

and without a WP they hit with half , wound with half and then your opponents roll saves , unless they strike faster . even when both units strike at the same time ws3 means they get hit more [without the addtition of a chaplain class HQ].

 

Grey Hunters can't throw down as many bodies in a single unit.

and why would they want to . more then 10 doesnt fit in to a rhino .

Grey Hunters won't make your opponent give you a concerned look as they pile out of a Crusader led by a Wolf Priest.

with the unit costing like what 3xGH squads in rhinos ? you think your opponent wouldnt have concern on his face if you deployed 3 GH units ? he would . even more then a single LR costing 500+ [because it is way more easy to stop a single LR then 3 rhinos].

Every army has cookie cookie lists that ignore the fluff, it comes down to tournament, win-at-all-costs playstyles.

GH make up the most of all SW grand companies. check . LF are veterans who use hvy weapons . check . SW do use rhinos and razorbacks . check . In what places are the SW list using LF and GH unfluffy ?

[AnvilofFenris]

Obviously for fully competitive tournaments, players will stick with a tried and tested formula, much the same as any player from any other codex will. I think personally some of the "fluff versus competitive" argument can be caused by the codex itself. In our case, the codex tries to steer players into making their forces unique. I point out the Leaders of the Pack rule, no identical wargear or sagas for HQ. The army list itself however doesnt make it worthwhile for competitive players to take units such as Blood Claws. As someone has already pointed out, if they were slightly cheaper than Grey Hunters, it would go some way to balance their lower stats. I have to admit, even as a non-tournament, friendly level player, I was pretty surprised to find that Blood Claws are no better shots than the average Guardsman. I personally have one pack of them, just to represent the fresh blood in the company. If they don't get stuck in, how will they learn? ;) I would say to the OP, if you're playing against these so-called 'net-lists', adjust your own army list and playing style, find their weaknesses, and give them such a beating your opponents will applaud your skill and tenacity. This in itself should force a little more flexibility. Or suggest using a story driven campaign style, give everyone a taste of something different.

 

So in summary, I think I may have rambled a little there, fluff (although one of my favourite parts of the hobby) isn't rules driven, and isn't compulsary. If the codex doesn't make it worthwhile to take certain units, however fluffy they may be, people won't use them.

[Hfran Morkai]

Right, this thread has no driven me to creating a Tournament list using Blood Claws.

 

Because I still believe they have a place damnit.

[Niiai]

I do not like to use landraiders and that is the only place blood claws belong, unles you put them on jump packs or bikes. And they also need a damn wolf priest. That is a pretty big pricetag for "fluff".

 

I run a drop pod army or a hybrid drop pod / razorback. There is no room for blood claws in there. The matter of the fact is that blood claws are overpriced.

 

The only way to get good multimelta for a SW army is dreadnoughts but moast often multi melta and in this edition you need multimelta. The best place for a SW to get long ranged suport (since ouer range on the troops are so short) is long fangs and razorbacks.

 

If people wanted the SW to play diferently then they should not have made long fangs (ranged reach vs meldar / dark eldar / IG) so good, Land speeders (multi melta vs land raiders) so mandatory, and they should have made blood claws better so that the only good choise in the codex is grey hunters.

 

On the nett and the tournament scene I see loads of variations of the space wolves list, and many very fluffy. But I do see the same basic elements in all list because those are the building blocks of the space wolves army list.

 

I also recent people who say "space wolves always do this or this", when we are in fact not. I wanted to play long fangs/razorback spam and not space wolves I would honestly just be playing Grey Knights hencemen list. Or undercosted IG.

[greatcrusade08]

Right, this thread has no driven me to creating a Tournament list using Blood Claws.

 

Because I still believe they have a place damnit.

 

thats the spirit ;)

if i ever ran a wolf list it would have BCs in it, maybe becuase they are wolf equivalent of SM scouts...

 

i think a large mob in a raider with an Ic who gives them furious charge would be awesome (ragnar perhaps)

[Max_Dammit]

Littlbitz uses BC in his torny lists.

[Kassill]

Littlbitz uses BC in his torny lists.

 

 

Yeah, and didnt he also have some pretty awesome Swiftclaw/Skyclaw lists? The man is inspiring. ;)

[Hfran Morkai]

Littlbitz uses BC in his torny lists.

 

 

Yeah, and didnt he also have some pretty awesome Swiftclaw/Skyclaw lists? The man is inspiring. ;)

 

He's clearly blessed with his Wyrd.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

That's possibly a sign of a net-list; if there's nothing but GH's in Razorbacks, the list is likely based off the net (3 to 6 packs in a 1500 pt game).

you realy think that someone who reads the SW dex doesnt and doesnt have the Oh shiny mentality doesnt see [without any net help] that razorbacks+LF makes for a very good mobile gunline list ?

 

 

Grey Hunters, GH's. LF's belong in Razorbacks, as they best fit their unit size.

[Tsavong Lah]

Blood Claws are explicitly stated, in the codex, to be used purely as shock troops who hit the front lines, cause some mayhem, and then die in droves. So it makes perfect sense to have a ton of Grey Hunters running around—most Blood Claws who survive eventually get promoted.

 

Still, I wouldn't mind a good way to run Blood Claws in that role. The Laid Raider idea is awesome at really high points values, but if you're playing 1500-2000 it's just too much of your points in one basket. I think Skyclaws with a Wolf Priest is probably the way to go—not too expensive, pretty punchy, and highly mobile.

[Coverfire]

Why is it that people who play space wolves have a tendency to give every squad the same load out, the same wolf guard battle leader, the same transport and never take blood claws. Does everyone seriously skip over the part of the codex that talks about the flavor of the army and how these guys like to do stuff?

 

Every army list I see come up is all got the same sort of build and nobody ever seems to have the guts to take blood claws. They are all flavorless, boring, vanilla marine lists with space wolf special rules.... Seriously, where is the fun? I love to win, but why cant people take a "flavorful" list and still perform well? It does not make any sense to me. Everyones wolf guard are always the same cookie cutter load out, four units of grey hunters with the same things and in a rhino, three units of long fangs all with the exact same weapons.... I guess I just dont unterstand the appeal of playing an army that goes 100% against the intention of its play style. Can someone help me here? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I am a bit concerned with this 'fluffier than thou' attitude of the OP.

 

I have seen one of his lists on the Army List Page and it had 3 HQ units at 2k. Which I personally don't think is particulary fluffy; but I guess fluff, like cheese, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Why do we never take Blood Claws, well there are several here that will swear by them, but lets take your generalisation with a grain of salt. Fluffy wise Grey Hunters have always been the majority of the Space Wolves. In the last codex I believe that there was a restriction of having to take x2 Grey Hunters for each Blood Claw unit because of the uncommon nature of new aspirants in a single force; because remember that 40k battles are more skirmishers and spearhead assualts rather than batters, which was why we had Epic 40k. [EDIT: I was wrong about the 2:1 Grey Hunter/ Blood Claw ratio. There had to be at least 1 Grey Hunter unit in every force but there wasn't a specific ratio]

 

I admit that we overuse Long Fangs, but being fluffy again each commander is going to have those he knows and trusts fighting with him. Game wise Long fangs are our best ranged attack option and Space Wolves would be more likely to use marines than tanks (in my opinon).

 

Another option which I will readily admit to being overused, by myself and others is the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders with C/melta and Powerfist; but it is just such a great option. I have tried to use other equipment but it just isn't as versatile, as cost effective or as effective.

 

EDIT: Because of belligerent langauge for which I meant no offense, and to correct an error regarding the old codex.

[eyeslikethunder]

I think you are getting the wrong impression listening to web.

 

Lets look at the lists from adepticon

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/04/05/...s-and-anyalsis/

 

If you look at the three space wolf army lists you will see that each is different in style and methodology.

 

The one that did worst

has razorbacks and long fangs but does have bjorn normally a net lister no no but is overwise a netlist probably a defend shoot your opposition down (use bjorn as altenative objective very unfluffy) of the type SW list you hate.

 

The next is a hybrid list some GH in Rhinos(not razorbacks) some thunderwolf cavalry and some long fang support. This would play through midfield domination in typically SW way. This is probaly the most aggressive of the lists with a big rock

 

The winner is a Njal list with a lot of GH which used masses closed range firepower and Njal to torrent armies to death in midfield.

 

So three different lists with differnet styles.

 

you also asked why you do not see many BC's well unfortunately they are most overpriced thing in the codex(except WG bikers maybe). In 3rd ed people used to debate whether blood claws were worth it when they were 3pts cheaper than a GH now they are the same price and worse than they were.

 

I actually think the Skyclaws and Swiftclaws work well if given a WP. I just think they just dont fill a gap that we need filling. 6th might change this as if the rumoured claiming of objectives every turn is true. They might have a gap to fill again

[Vinadir]

@ coverfire, three hq at 2K pts is truly fluffy, previous codex required 1 hq for every 750 pts.

[Grey Mage]

Why is it that people who play space wolves have a tendency to give every squad the same load out, the same wolf guard battle leader, the same transport and never take blood claws. Does everyone seriously skip over the part of the codex that talks about the flavor of the army and how these guys like to do stuff?

 

Every army list I see come up is all got the same sort of build and nobody ever seems to have the guts to take blood claws. They are all flavorless, boring, vanilla marine lists with space wolf special rules.... Seriously, where is the fun? I love to win, but why cant people take a "flavorful" list and still perform well? It does not make any sense to me. Everyones wolf guard are always the same cookie cutter load out, four units of grey hunters with the same things and in a rhino, three units of long fangs all with the exact same weapons.... I guess I just dont unterstand the appeal of playing an army that goes 100% against the intention of its play style. Can someone help me here? ;) :P :lol:

The guts to take bloodclaws?

 

*blinks* Ive never been big on them. They dont fit my army- the nerfs in fifth to their effectiveness means its less appealing overall. They still see the light of day from time to time, rolling around ina crusader, but thats all they ever were for me.

 

Actually... I field bloodclaws more often than ever now, because they dropped the price on bloodclaw bikers.

 

I think you need to get out more, see more lists before you say these things. I dont care what the top table tournies look like- theyre incredibly meta'd and have very little connection to what works at most gaming stores and in peoples basements.

[Coverfire]

@ coverfire, three hq at 2K pts is truly fluffy, previous codex required 1 hq for every 750 pts.

 

I am not sure if following a rule from a previous codex could be called fluffy; for example, it was a rule brought in for third edition that we didn't have in second edition. Although back then we could teleport too... and our Wolf Guard could take heavy weapons (with WS/BS 5) and our Blood Claws had WS/BS 4... sigh...

 

It could just be that I see it as over-management. In actuality, I almost always (can't think of a time when I have haven't) use 2 HQs at 1500pts, but I don't then claim that I am fluffy and everyone else is metagaming...

[WyrdWolf]

Whether or not the initial post was troll, I definitely think i've drawn quite a bit of insight out of this discussion how people feel towards fluff vs. tournament styles.

 

I personally have NO experience with space wolves lists other than the ones I make. I'm the only one who plays them at my local shop, so i honestly can't speak to the tactics that everyone else uses. I don't win every match (not even close really), but my main opponent is a friend of mine who's been playing forever, has about a 2k force or more of every army at his disposal and knows the ins and outs of all those armies. Currently he's playing a very tournament tuned dark eldar list. Which usually puts me in a hard spot when choosing between fluff lists or tournament lists. I'm trying very desperately to come up with an original/fluffly/competitive list. I don't run bloodclaws because my company (As some of you who were involved in my first topic on the forum) is based off a rogue Wolf Lord. So having no bloodclaws IS in fact fluffy in my instance because they don't have anyone to recruit. I do have 3 thunderwolf models that I use occasionally as well, Only because it makes sense to me that being a rogue company they wouldn't have too many thunderwolves, and when they did use them it would have to be somewhat carefully because of their value in close combat.