One autocannon psyrifle dreds?

[Death Dealer 101]

Hi everyone,

 

I have a pile of old metal grey knights lying around and thought after I get a decent amount of space wolves painted up and finished I might think about finishing the grey knights off.

 

Having done some research/reading and what nots it appears that from my own reading and pretty much what most people say is that quad autocannon dreds with psybolts are rather nasty. Clearly 4 twin-linked S8 mobile shots a turn is effective.

 

Now I don't really like the look of the dreds all that much with two autocannon arms and kind of don't want to really power game to much. Leaning towards solidily competitive but not over the top.

 

So how have people faired with just single twin autocannon arm dreds keeping the stock standard fist. What advice can people offer, single autocannon dreds are good and can be taken in pairs for instance or is it just easier and better to take the full autocannon dreds but maybe only havig the one.

 

If anyone is wondering about my list I don’t really have one but I have toyed around with something lie this, insert standard psycannons and rhinos etc.

Grand Master

10x terminators

10x strikes

10x strikes

Dred

Dred

Maybe Dred

 

Thanks.

[AnImA8]

I think there is something interesting to note here. For starters let me say that Enhanced Aegis makes me feel like I want to see my dreads nearby my guys. It just makes sense (often times with Psyflemen, we see the mechanized force advancing WAY ahead of the psyflemen.) After having said that I think there's also a lot to be said for using Dreads as a bit of a counter-assault unit in case one of your strikes/whatever gets hung up in CC. So I personally like having my Dreads with arms, it just makes sense to me. The other thing to be said here is that with the NDF arm for the dread he also becomes very good at killing MC's, quite a bit better than normal marines. SO given all of this I think one-autocannon psyrifle dread would be cool. I just think he probably wants to be near other squads.

 

-AnImA8

[grimz]

I've been musing on this too, especially since dreads are a good source of psychic defense, however I personally find that when dread advance with the army they don't get cover as easily and tend to die faster.

[the jeske]

dreads are bad assault platforms in general [problems with number of A or actualy getting in to hth, even teh blood talon dreads BA have problems with that] so keeping a ccw on them makes little sense . rifle man are best because the number of shots +being unstunable , no other set up comes anywhere near it . + GK have NDK a MC which is fast[shunt , outflank etc ] ok shoting and ok hth . nothing over the top but they do support some armies well[draigo wings for example] . So taking slow dreads makes even less sense for GK builds. If non auto cannon armed dreads , then technicly Las/RL set up could work [but it is out performed by rifle man]. Taking single AC and ccw is up there with taking Assault cannon armed dreads and stuff like that.

 

Reinforce aegis is good for shoty armies which dont move a lot and fast[crow wings] or those that have a small number of units and can conga [venerables in draigo wings ].

[lordsloth]

Compared to a two autocannon psyfleman, a single autocannon one is significantly worse. And considering theres only a 5pt difference between the two, the double cannon one clearly wins.

 

Having said that, I dont think the single cannon one is unplayably horrible. If compared against a regular space marine rifleman, 2 str8 shots compared to 4 str7 shots is only slightly worse (its alot worse against av10, somewhat worse against av11, roughly the same against av 12 and better against 13 and 14). Now ofcourse, the point of riflemen is to take down av 10-12 stuff, so theres that.

 

And as has been said, dreads arent the most amazing assault units, str10 not withstanding. Still, its better than str6 with armour saves if you do get stuck in melee sometimes (though on the whole, with a rifleman, this generally means something went wrong).

 

So anyway, probably not unplayable, but most certainly not optimal.

[Drachnon]

I personally avoid close combat with dreads, 2x S10 attacks 3 on charge usually with ws4 means you only hit once which might not even wound. Considering most players I know have some form of anti tank close combat ability (usually a powerfist) you're probably getting more damage then you deal. Also our GK don't need dreads for the close combat, we have plenty of heavy hitting squads that can deal good close combat damage what we lack is ranged S8+ shots to break open transports which is the perfect role for psyflemen.

[AnImA8]

I think it's pretty clear that the OP understands how much better the 2x autocannon dread is than the single-armed Dread. However due to aesthetics, and not wanting to power game too hard he wants to try and make due with something less. Thus why I suggested using the Dread as long-ranged fire support with a little bit of counter-assault capability. Yes I agree that dreads aren't really a great assault platform, however if your strikes happen to get caught up in assault for whatever reason, then having a Dread with DCCW around would be helpful to spring them.

 

-AnImA

[Crynn]

If you want to runa non psyfleman dread there is another reasonable option.

 

A venerable dread with an assault cannon and psybolt ammo. hes arround 185 pts has a psycannon at bs 5 and is WS 5 so hits in CC on a 3 in most cases also has a 2 shot str 5 gun which means he pumps out 6 high BS reasonable decnt shots at 24" he is not bad in assault, will wreck tanks and hold up squads if he doesn't kill them. He is very tough due to venerable and will be around long enough to keep providing that reinforced aegis.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Red Lost Soldier]

If I take a single weapon/DCCW platform I go for the Plasma Cannon. Decent range and threat, quite cheap, and while a Dread is not a combat unit in of itself, it can hold a unit up while other units manoeuvre for the charge. Even a basic GK combat squad and a Dread can handle quite a few things. Sometimes it's funny to outflank the beast into an enemies back line also.

 

Not to mention that plastic Ven Dread kit with Plasma Cannon/DCCW looks really nice on the table.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I plan on collecting two Grey Knight Dreads... one with 2 TL Auto-cannon, and one with "psycannon" / CCW and heavy flamer (incinerator). Personally, if people were thinking that a TLLC dread with CCW was okay and playable in the last book, I don't see why a psybolt ammo AutoCannon dread would be less so in this book :) I say go for it!

[Death Dealer 101]

Thankyou everyone for the replies it has generated a good discussion.

 

I guess its one of those things that comes down to personnel choice. Deciding to take a support shooting dred lends itself to taking the duel autocannons (its only 5 points more) and you go from being an ok long ranged unit to a very good one. But that comes at an expense of a personnel feel to the list and simply taking the best option.

 

Personally I don't think the plasma cannon dreds are really needed with grey knights. When the majority of the army is armed with force weapons, plasma cannons kind of become obsolete. I guess there’s times when you don’t want to assault those 2+ troops but in general I don’t think they are needed.

 

Similarly assault cannons dreds with psybolts (aka psycannon dreds) provide close supporting firepower and additional limited close combat ability if needed. But once again most grey knight armies already are packing a large amount of psycannons anyway.

 

As has been said Grey knights lack long ranged anti-tank , incomes the psyrifle dred and tada longed ranged firepower covered. Its easy, cheapish and effective.

 

If it wasn’t for the look of the psyrifle (anyone got any nice renditions they can offer) then clearly it’s the winner. I feel that a pair of single autocannon dreds in most situations can probably provide a good amount of firepower. However my space wolves list often rocks out with 2x4missile long fangs squads. It’s not to the extreme of 5 missile squads but it is effective. However that’s 8 S8 shots a turn and often they achieve nothing so the two single autocannons may be a tad short. If used just to sit back and shoot then it’s definitely a wasted opportunity not going for the additional firepower as it could be doubled for a very minimal point’s investment.

 

So maybe a mixed approach is best. One double psyrifle dred and one single psyrifle dred, you don’t miss out on as much potential firepower, retain a bit of close combat ability and aren’t simply taking the best option every time. Maybe some practise games in the future are needed.

[HB66]

Blood Angels and GK's have a nice advantage though.......

They have the Stormraven, I think this has given Dreads a totally new facet to their battlefield use. Dreads could always use a drop pod, but with a storm raven you can drop a close combat squad and a Dread. Then you can set up your dread to be pure CC, like a Death Company Dread......or close fire support/Anti tank......like a Multi melta, flamers, plasma cannon.

Me personnaly I love the dual auto cannon psyfleman dread, stick him back in a corner and use him to snipe away at enemy vehicles and transports. When I do use dreads i like to use two....gives my enemy more to think about. But thats just me, I generally build more fluffy armies.

 

HB66

[AnImA8]

Blood Angels and GK's have a nice advantage though.......

They have the Stormraven, I think this has given Dreads a totally new facet to their battlefield use. Dreads could always use a drop pod, but with a storm raven you can drop a close combat squad and a Dread. Then you can set up your dread to be pure CC, like a Death Company Dread......or close fire support/Anti tank......like a Multi melta, flamers, plasma cannon.

Me personnaly I love the dual auto cannon psyfleman dread, stick him back in a corner and use him to snipe away at enemy vehicles and transports. When I do use dreads i like to use two....gives my enemy more to think about. But thats just me, I generally build more fluffy armies.

 

HB66

 

This is actually what I prefer as well. I like the idea of having MM/HF Dreadnoughts riding with my Strikes in Stormravens. But admittedly it doesn't help with "long-range" fire support.

 

-AnImA8

[Gentlemanloser]

The only problem with the Stormraven, is unlike the Bangles, we don't have a Pure CC dread.

 

Which is a shame.

[Murcielago]

Although we DO get free force weapons on our dreads ;)

[breng77]

I think that the single auto-cannon build is viable, though I actually think it is better when swapping the fist for the auto-cannon and keeping a second gun rather than the fist. I've seen people with some success with Auto-cannon, assault cannon dreads (2 TL S8 + 4 S7 rending shots), or Auto-cannon, multi-melta dreads (not much melta in our army so this helps with killing high armor targets.)

[Abaddonshand]

Anyone worried about the looks of a kit-bashed psyfle dread should look at the new contempor autocannon arms. They look amazing! Add to that the relic body and it really fits GK asthetic, and looks similar to the dread knight.

[fivepointedstar]

I had a ven dread with one autocannon, and one Assualt cannon with psybolts ammo. that was one nasty fella. with 2 TL S8, and 4 S7 rending shots I was doing lots of damage to enemies within the 24" range, and those that were outof range for all 6 shots still got two S8 heading there way.

[benmothershaw]

Venerable dreadnaught inside a stormraven has a good chance of holding a unit up, while support arrives from other units.

[breng77]

true but if all you want it to do is hold things up replacing the close combat arm is still probably a better idea than keeping it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you're not taking both autocannons, just stick with the stock multi-melta (true anti-tank is something Knights lack, Rending isn't reliable), or the plasma cannon if you feel like providing some anti-infantry support. One autocannon is a bit of a waste, as for 5pts extra you get double the firepower (pretty obvious choice there).

 

If you want a close-combat Dread, I would recommend the Venerable. He's far more likely to reach combat ('Fortitude' and re-rolls to damage make him a beast at tanking), you can keep the stock multi-melta and it'll probably hit (won't be firing much, as you'll be Running, and you probably want a can opener to get at the meat inside on the turn you charge). Does eat an Elite slot, but that usually won't be a problem (you have three, and his only real competition is Paladins or Purifiers, who are about double his price). Giving him 'Counter-Attack' from the GM would help in protracted combat, as 2 attacks really don't cut it, even at WS5.

[Valerian]

Giving him 'Counter-Attack' from the GM would help in protracted combat, as 2 attacks really don't cut it, even at WS5.

 

How would Counterattack help? It only works on the turn he gets charged, and then only grants a single extra attack. Most opponents will probably be trying to shoot him rather than assault him anyway, so seems to me to be a big waste of TGS.

 

Otherwise, I agree with your other points.

 

Valerian

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dreadnought is slow, even if you're Running, so he's unlikely to get the charge. I agree though, you'll usually have better things to use 'Grand Strategy' for (making scoring Purifiers etc). Just an idea, if you are running a combat Dread.