Vanguard Veterans. Why I will use them.

[Master Melta]

Ok Marines. I know point for point, especially the way I wan to run these dudes, Vanguard Veterans are the RHSC of the marine dex.

 

I get that. However, I am going to use them, not in Thade's humble loadout, but in fact with Jump Packs and BANKING on Heroic Intervention.

 

My loadout is 345 points. WHAT? But you say: That's 5 assault terminators, 2 landspeeders with MM and Heavy Flamers, with melta bombs for a random SGT to boot!

 

Yeah, I get that too. I swear I do.

 

Basically I have been running Mech Marines for 2 years now. I love them, I really do, and I am starting a new, codex:marines army, despite having about 4K points of my lovely Iron Hands. I just like the marine models so much, I want more, but I've been there and done that on MEQ, so I am going with a force that deploys via Drop Pods.

 

I won't post my full detailed list here because the root of this thread is to declare, shamelessly, to the B&C heretics, that despite better judgement, I am going to MAKE Vanguard Veterans(with jump packs and HI) not only worth taking, but prove that the unit and the rules and gear they come with are game breakers.

 

Also, since I am posting this in the tactics thread, I would like to stubbornly discuss why this unit will be good and record accounts of their heroism.

 

Finally, they are just down right awesome. The models, whether I get the finecase box set(I want it) or I just convert super epic awesome veterans, will be a centerpiece both for the hobby side and the gaming side of the army.

 

At my local store, tourneys are almost always 2250. (Oh, wait, I forgot to mention until now that this is absolutely and entirely a consideration for competative codex marine play.) With the points and the tourney in mind, here is the unit that I will use, until I figure out vs everything amaginable or 6th's comes out.

 

6th: I mentioned a prediction. Well, these guys are going to arrive via Deepstrike and assualt when they do, they will... I plan on using locator beacons to ensure this. I predict that the deepstrike rules, mainly the consequences, will be more favorable to deep striking units in 6th edition.

 

I have no evidence here, but (assuming bad scatter) a 1/3 chance of losing the unit, that, for 90% of the units that can't event assault when they deep strike, makes non-drop pod deepstriking very dangerous. I think this danger will lessen. Maybe not go away, but lessen. Even the middle of the road result, gives the enemy initiative when placing the unit....

 

Ok, rants are over. Here is the unit.

 

7 Veterans, 1 Power Fist, 2 Power Weapons, 2 Storm Shields and Relic Blade upgrade on the SGT, with Jump Packs, 345...

 

Strategy: Drop Pods with Locator Beacons(LB).

List: 2 Melta ready drop pods. 1 with command squad, 1 with Sternguard. 3 Tactical Squads in pods, 1 melta, 2 plasma, 1 scout squad with a Land speeder storm, and one heavy bolter drop pod to keep the numbers even as possible. Librarian and of course close combat captain in tow.

 

The drop pods are even numbered. I know, not optimal because of the rounding up rule for Drop Pod Assault. Well, to be honest, I will get what I need depending on the scenario, who goes first, and what the enemy does.

 

I want to give them turn 1 for a couple of reasons. 1. They can't shoot me on their turn 1, nightfighting or otherwise. That's always good. 2. I know where they are going to set up, which includes if they say: "Oh you are all drop pods, fine, I reserve everything." Uh oh, they reserved everything, my alpha drop podding force is hosed right? Not so fast! Now we are on even ground. 3. Missions. Objectives change tactics, and kill points do too. One can fake strategy with objective placement and throw off enemy plans. 4. Finally, I want the initiative. 40K is all about execution. I plan on being able to dictate what the enemy does based on what I do, not the other way around. I hope that the scouts and the storm will keep folks honest should I lose the turn roll.

 

SO, (dadgum this is getting lenghty), let's talk about who's dropping in when and what that means for my 345 point squad of annihalation.

 

Sterngaurd, command squad and devistators are the first wave if I go second. The sternguard and command squad will target vehicles full of goons. One, two or three should pop. These units will no doubt be assaulted in the ensuing player turn, but the vanguard will bail them out OR if they are doing ok, knock out one of those now transportless squads.

 

If I am going first, the devistators set up, and their pod, plus two tacticals will land on objectives or create a perimitor. In this scenario, the scouts perform the role of transport popper. Vanguard come in and wail on goons.

 

These Heroic Interventions will be precise and hit hard. The ONLY thing I am worried about is the reserve roll, which almost made me take Tigirius.

 

It may be old news for an aging unit, but I would like to hear comments on the above alpha death and your experiences, good and bad, what NOT to do, etc with these guys.

 

That's it.

 

MM

[Cerrik]

I've never used vanguard despite wanting to add a killer attachment for Shrike. But, I can relate my drop pod losses. Everytime I use pods, I get the crap kicked outta me. Perhaps it's a flaw in my execution but, never works. I still love them though. Own 10... But they are collecting dust right now as I'm working on my 10th Co.

 

Good luck to you. The strike sounds solid. Specially as you can use that Storm to alps with too.

[TheChairman]

Hi,

 

I am trying to build a hybrid Drop-Pod list at the moment. I´m also trying to figure out all the different possibilities of a Drop Pod Alpha Strike. The basic Idea is simple - have some empty Pods (from Devs, TFCs or Riflemens) come in empty if your opponent reserves everything. But in your case, without empty Pods and giving him the first turn he will still get to shoot at your dropped stuff at the top of turn 2.

 

Could you explain this statement a bit more?

 

I know where they are going to set up, which includes if they say: "Oh you are all drop pods, fine, I reserve everything." Uh oh, they reserved everything, my alpha drop podding force is hosed right? Not so fast! Now we are on even ground.

 

 

Thanks,

theChairman

[Master Melta]

I have plenty of pods that can be empty. The devs and the 3 tacticals.

 

 

On the statement.

 

Well, one of the disadvantages of drop pods is once the first wave is in, the rest of your force is in reserve, and may not arrive when you want.

 

If the enemy reserves everything in fear of my alpha, then his units may not arrive when he wants them to. That evens the odds.

 

This would force me to drop in the tacticals or deploy them and drop their pods in first turn. OK, firebase established.

 

It would also mean that instead of me podding in and melting a few transports then catching hell from the entire enemy force, whatever I do decide to drop it will only have to face whatever units he get's in off his reserves.

 

Basically, the weakness is watered down so that it's still a liability, but now the enemy has to deal with it as well.

 

Does that clear it up???

 

MM!

[Frogstar168]

Fantastic, Master Melta! Good luck to you and your force. I will have to try using Vanguard this way. I already use my own drop-pod force in the way you describe and it generally works well.

[Ming]

Same. Painting a VV squad right now, and looking to get more. I've seen what they can do. I like the lightning claws on some...anything to create more wounds on the charge.

 

As for 6th ed. rumors....

 

Pods effectively tank shock onto the table. They only correct their drop location for vehicles or terrain reasons. Carbon life forms just don't show up on the sensors. The enemy has to move back out of the way of the doors plus 1 inch. No death or glory from dropping pods...get out of the way or be squished.

 

Heavy bolters become assault 3.

 

Pod weaponsry can fire the turn it arrives.

[breng77]

I think the issue you may come accross with this tactic is: what happens when your Locator Beacon pods are destroyed on the first turn? What happens when your opponent moves away from your Locator beacon pods? What do you do if your opponent is playing Grey knights with warp quake?

[ShinyRhino]

I think the issue you may come accross with this tactic is: what happens when your Locator Beacon pods are destroyed on the first turn? What happens when your opponent moves away from your Locator beacon pods? What do you do if your opponent is playing Grey knights with warp quake?

 

Nevermind the first turn, what about when they're destroyed on the third turn, and your VV squad still hasn't arrived due to a series of unfortunate die rolls? Without the ability to manipulate the outcome of reserve rolls, tactics like this are middling, at best. They'll work amazingly when the pieces fall perfectly, and wither on the vine when the dice don't cooperate.

It is nice to drop pods near objectives in the early game to contest and pressure the enemy, but without a supporting presence to keep the enemy from running rough-shod over the pod and/or squad inside, it becomes a matter of applied force, and you can't win that while waiting for reserve rolls. Don't get me wrong, pods are a viable army build, but they can't rest on their laurels waiting for the hammer to fall from the sky when the enemy is locked and loaded and blasting away those beacons.

 

Honestly, "planning ahead" to a new edition of the game rules is an unwise policy, especially when everything heard about it is wild conjecture. I find it unlikely that pods will tank shock (they already removed that ability from the Monolith!), or that deepstriking in general will become "friendlier" to the user.

[breng77]

The other question is what do you do if your opponent can manipulate reserves and you cannot. (IG for example can nerf your rolls and buff their own, eldar can get bonuses, as can nids.)

 

I actually think your list works better with Blood angels than codex marines. The vanguard vets don't need to rely on locator beacons (they can but don't have too) and DOA allows you to re-roll their reserve rolls, which means 75% to come in on turn 2. You can still get sternguard, and a "command squad", but both can get FNP. Assault marine squads can get free drop pods, and their devastators are cheaper.

[Something Wycked]

I foresee that traditional lists and/or net lists stand a good chance of getting stomped on by you.

 

However, non-traditional lists may upset the delicate balancing act you've set up for yourself. As breng mentioned, there are a handful of armies that can affect Reserves in various ways. Only 4 units in my 2500 list cannot, in some form, interdict Deep Strike (Dreadknights and Grand Master); the Strikes, Interceptors and Coteaz I bring can make it very difficult for your Drop Pods to find a safe landing zone and for your Vanguards to succeed with HI, even with a properly positioned Locator Beacon and your Libby for Hood defense.

 

You're bringing 2 HQ's and 9 units (I'm ignoring the Drop Pods for this but counting the LSS); my 2500 Grey Knights shrunk to 2250 would have 7 units and 2 HQ's. A 2 unit advantage means less when about half your army will be spending time in Reserve.

 

All that said, here comes the most important bit: I fully support lists that go against the net wisdom. I think you stand a good chance of doing well with your list, not only because non-traditional lists aren't terribly common, but also because you're putting a lot more thought into your force composition and tactics than the average player. I look forward to hearing about your performance at the tourney :)

[spartan249]

I'm going to be straight honest with you: I think this list will run you into trouble a lot. Nevermind the fact that you are relying on a tactic that itself relies on reserve rolls and your units surviving return fire (not a guarantee in any sense of the word, especially with some of the nastier lists I see around) until your lolhammer drops from the sky. Nevermind the armies that seriously put a dent on reserve tactics by simple virtue of their army rules (IG + GK as well as those people using LS storms). The simple fact that you are running a pod list is going to put you at a severe disadvantage from the get go because of how easy it has become to kill marines in this game. Compound this with the fact that most marines have very limited mobility once they hit the ground (This is two-fold. First, marines can't fire with much consequence on the move, and second, they're walking through either open terrain to move as fast as possible which in turn exacerbates the durability problem, or they're moving through cover to gain moderate survivability for much reduced mobility) and the inherent ineffectiveness at CQB that marines suffer from.

 

The Vanguard themselves are simply too weak to warrant the point cost and the faith you put in them to do their jobs. They're slightly above average when it comes to dealing with the rank and file troops, but they're at a severe disadvantage against enemy units who are similarly pointed, yet vastly superior at close combat.

 

I may spout a lot of doom and gloom about this, but I don't doubt that you'll win more then your fair share with this list. I did to, when I started out. However, I do not think that this sort of list will cut it when you start getting into higher caliber games, as it will demand a more flexible approach to the game that Drop Pod based armies do not provide by simple virtue of the nature of it's deployment.

[Master Melta]

Good replies so far!

 

I here lots of fail and lots of win.

 

One more thing I want to point out.

 

I am a pretty good player at my local shop. Not the best but in the top tier. I'm not bragging or talking smack about my competition. All I am saying is I have won a league or two and a couple of tournies with marines, and some mech eldar.

 

That's done. I'm moving on. That being said, I'm not moving on to Space Wolves or Blood Angels. I'm not moving on to IG, Grey Knights or DE. I'm sticking to my vanillage marine guns.

 

With that in mind, I don't what anymore rhinos or dreadnoughts. I want shock and awe. Yeah, there are optimal and suboptimal match ups and scenarios. That's the case with every fugging list I've set down on the table, even the ones I won against.

 

The other aspect of this list is the hobby, which aside from this line doesn't apply here but I want to model some of these units and paint them up quite slowly to ensure they just look good, really good.

 

I'm going to dedicate the begining months of this list to drop pod, HI, land speeder storm tactics and will report back.

 

Please keep the feedback coming, I very much like things to look out for. I'll drop off solutions if I face these items.

 

Oh and I am open to some list changing, but not the veterans, command squad, situation.

 

MM