Watchers in the Dark

[Captain Semper]

Watchers.... a weird and unique addition to the DAs fluff. They appear to be aliens, co-exitsitng with one of the more Xenophobic of Chapters, in what appears to be an exclusive relation. Although BL fluff points towards them being feverishly anti-Chaos there is very little know on their role within the Chapter. Interestingly they do not appear anywhere else in the 40k lore (that I know of) so their existance with DAs appaears almost symbiotic.

 

But what I'm particularly interested in, is their day-to-day function within the DAs chapter. What do the Watchers watch anyway? I say they make sure that the DAs do not deviate from their course. They intervene in a subtle way to keep this organization focused for 10,000 years. Be that through influencing the SGM on his choice of succession or enabling the GM of Librarians to take the correct descision of who to induct into the Inner Circle (being infinately more psychic than any SM Librarian could ever hope to be). More importantly they should be the ones that reveal the ultimate secret to the newly appointed SGM. In this sense: No Watchers – No DAs as we know them.

 

A number of loose ends in the background can be explained through the Watchers and I beleive GW has left a lot of potential unutilised.

 

What do people think of the Watchers in general?

[Tengo]

Sorry I couldn't give you a freshly original answer Semper (or should I say 'Captain always'? :)) but I remember that one of my first posts on here were my musings on the watchers, so I've gone back in time and copied the text so I can just drop it here:

 

I think that the Watchers in the dark were responsible for the survival of the infant lion during his first years in the deadly wilderness of Caliban. Perhaps, with their physic abilities they could sense an unbelievable magnitude of power in the very young primarch, and speculating perhaps that he seemed to be the only pure and innocent thing they may have ever encountered (The innocence of children negates the evils of man, or perhaps because he was just the only being they've ever encountered completely free of the Caliban taint) they could have vowed to watch over and care for him, until he grew strong and capable, able to cleanse Caliban of it's dangers, and in return for their protection in his early years, offer the watchers security on their own homeworld.

Driven by their loyalty to the lion, they do not bother his legion, but they are loyal only to the lion, not the emperor, and serve only Primarch, and not the Dark Angels.

 

In short, I don't think they aid the chapter in anyway other than how the lion may have instructed them to. I think their primary task is to guard and nurse the Lion back to health, and protect the rock, the last of their homeworld with psychic warding, so the chaos powers do not take note of it.

I think they protect the DA geneseed from corruption, and watch out for signs of corruption in any existing marines.

I also believe they are heavily involved with the rise of new SGMs and transferring secrets.

 

I believe that these tasks were instructed to them by the lion, perhaps just after the fight with Luther, and on his near-death bed, perhaps they instructions were part of an emergency protocol that the watchers should follow if all went belly up, or maybe the watchers can communicate psychically with the dormant lion.

[Grand Master Belial]

I like that answer Tengo.

 

I thought of them as silent guides that would show up when the Dark Angels need it most to would warn a leader of the DA that they are about to go down a path of corruption. Their presence would be rare but they would be encountered by those who are in the Deathwing and even then by Chaplains, Librarians and Masters on up. They would oversee the interrogations of the Fallen and would probably even suggest destinations for the Dark Angels to send brothers to stop the influences of Chaos in the galaxy.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm thinking they have their own agenda based on fighting some 'ancient entity' in the warp, they currently use the DA to fight that battle, the direct contact Azzy has with the little jawa dudes shows how much respect and/or control they have.

[Arioch]

They are small midgets that loves to steal your popcorn when you visit the cinema ;)

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, from page 11 of the 4Ed Codex: "Only the most trusted of Brethren are considered for membership of the Inner Circle. These are observed from afar, sometimes finding themselves inexplicably shadowed for many years by the diminutive and mysterious Watchers in the Dark." It goes on to say "Silent and hooded Brothers lead them before the Inner Circle for judgement and soon after they are either elevated to the Deathwing, or they disappear forever."

 

So, one of the things they watch: those being considered for elevation to the Deathwing, and possibly beyond. However, they do not necessarily make the decision on who will actually be elevated, as it still says the potential inductees are judged by the Inner Circle and they can be found wanting, even after observation by the Watchers.

 

Now, if we take the BL books at face value, they are part of a Cabal/Kabal, and this name came up again in the Horus Heresy book "Legion" where a Cabal member was trying to guide the Alpha Legion down a path that would prevent Chaos from overtaking the Empire, which would then lead to Chaos ruling the galaxy. The path they seem to send the Alpha Legion down is one that is apparently as traitors to the Emperor, something that people have claimed similarly but in opposite for the Dark Angels, namely that the Dark Angels seem loyal, but are actually traitors. Is it possible that the "Cabal" is the same for both groups? IIRC, the Cabal member in Legion was an Eldar, so is it possible that the Watchers in the Dark are actually either related, or are, some of the very people the Eldar themselves used to serve?

 

Personally, I'm hoping that GW has a serious "conspiracy" going on in the background against Chaos that actually weaves between the Loyalist and Traitor legions in some way, and that the Dark Angels are actually part of the overall arch in that, and that part of their secretive nature is to hide some complicity of the Unforgiven in this "semi-loyal" state, loyal to humanity and against Chaos, but not necessarily loyal to the Lords of Terra, some of who may be being manipulated either directly by Chaos, or subtly through Chaos through their own dark human nature.

 

At least, that's how I'd do it... :D

[Captain Semper]

Sorry I couldn't give you a freshly original answer Semper (or should I say 'Captain always'? ;)) but I remember that one of my first posts on here were my musings on the watchers, so I've gone back in time and copied the text so I can just drop it here:

 

Sorry I missed that thread, I might just have added to it. This thread was inspired by some interesting replies from the Masters & Grand Masters thread – so I just jumped to the opportunity to sort of gauge what people think on the matter. BTW you can call me what you like (as long as there is no malice there) no prob :lol:. Maybe you remember Captain Semper - the actual character? He was from the BL book “Execution Hour”. Great story that was…

 

I also believe they are heavily involved with the rise of new SGMs and transferring secrets.

 

I’m in agreement here…

 

I believe that these tasks were instructed to them by the lion, perhaps just after the fight with Luther, and on his near-death bed, perhaps they instructions were part of an emergency protocol that the watchers should follow if all went belly up, or maybe the watchers can communicate psychically with the dormant lion.

 

…but not here :). You seem to regard the Watchers as subordinate to the Lion in a way. I disagree with this view. I believe the Watchers pre-dated the Lion, they have their own anti-Chaos agenda and they just use the DAs as a vehicle to achieve their ends. This is not to say that DAs are tools. They share the same goals and accept the “aid” of the Watchers consciously. Which is kind of weird given the DAs staunch Xenophobic attitude… But there might be a secret (well I’m convinced of it :lol:) that not only makes DAs tolerate the Watchers, but to share a symbiotic existence with them. Stretching this argument a bit (and I’m gonna get some flak here) if anything DAs are dependent to the Watchers in order to function. *ducks for cover*

 

I like that answer Tengo.

 

I thought of them as silent guides that would show up when the Dark Angels need it most to would warn a leader of the DA that they are about to go down a path of corruption. Their presence would be rare but they would be encountered by those who are in the Deathwing and even then by Chaplains, Librarians and Masters on up. They would oversee the interrogations of the Fallen and would probably even suggest destinations for the Dark Angels to send brothers to stop the influences of Chaos in the galaxy.

 

Yes! That. No matter the spy network you have in place, nothing substitutes super psykers in sniffing out the Fallen. This last sentence is, I think, spot-on!

 

 

I'm thinking they have their own agenda based on fighting some 'ancient entity' in the warp, they currently use the DA to fight that battle, the direct contact Azzy has with the little jawa dudes shows how much respect and/or control they have.

 

I agree with that. DAs are used by the Watchers to do the ant-Chaos fighting, and are directed accordingly. Which suits the DAs just fine! Little jawa dudes indeed! :lol:

 

So, one of the things they watch: those being considered for elevation to the Deathwing, and possibly beyond. However, they do not necessarily make the decision on who will actually be elevated, as it still says the potential inductees are judged by the Inner Circle and they can be found wanting, even after observation by the Watchers.

 

Exactly. So the DA higher echelons are approved by the Watchers. In a sense the Watchers control the Unforgiven so that they stay true to their cause for as long as it takes. That way DAs are a full proof anti-Chaos force.

 

Now, if we take the BL books at face value, they are part of a Cabal/Kabal, and this name came up again in the Horus Heresy book "Legion" where a Cabal member was trying to guide the Alpha Legion down a path that would prevent Chaos from overtaking the Empire, which would then lead to Chaos ruling the galaxy. The path they seem to send the Alpha Legion down is one that is apparently as traitors to the Emperor, something that people have claimed similarly but in opposite for the Dark Angels, namely that the Dark Angels seem loyal, but are actually traitors. Is it possible that the "Cabal" is the same for both groups? IIRC, the Cabal member in Legion was an Eldar, so is it possible that the Watchers in the Dark are actually either related, or are, some of the very people the Eldar themselves used to serve?

 

Aaaaaaargh, I really need to read “Legion” now! That’s the thing with HH books, you never know what detail you might find in each one – no matter what the main story is…

 

Personally, I'm hoping that GW has a serious "conspiracy" going on in the background against Chaos that actually weaves between the Loyalist and Traitor legions in some way, and that the Dark Angels are actually part of the overall arch in that, and that part of their secretive nature is to hide some complicity of the Unforgiven in this "semi-loyal" state, loyal to humanity and against Chaos, but not necessarily loyal to the Lords of Terra, some of who may be being manipulated either directly by Chaos, or subtly through Chaos through their own dark human nature.

 

At least, that's how I'd do it... :D

 

This is interesting – never thought about it like that. In my mind the DA loyalty was to the Emperor personally - not the Imperium. In a sense, assuming the Emperor to be the incorruptible essence of humanity this can be like what you said – loyal to humanity, but not necessarily loyal to the Imperium as it has evolved – where corruption lurks on every level. So if loyalty to the Emperor ≠ loyalty to the High Lords then for sure, I’d say, the DAs will choose the former over the latter. Not so sure about the Minotaurs though :lol:.

[Son of Rawl]

I like to see the Watchers in the Dark carrying out the Lions will, they follow and watch those they believe the Lion can trust and only until they believe the enite chapter (or Legion as lets face, the DA are still a legion but wearing a chapter disguise) can be trusted will they awaken the Lion.

[Tengo]

I believe that these tasks were instructed to them by the lion, perhaps just after the fight with Luther, and on his near-death bed, perhaps they instructions were part of an emergency protocol that the watchers should follow if all went belly up, or maybe the watchers can communicate psychically with the dormant lion.

 

…but not here :eek. You seem to regard the Watchers as subordinate to the Lion in a way. I disagree with this view. I believe the Watchers pre-dated the Lion, they have their own anti-Chaos agenda and they just use the DAs as a vehicle to achieve their ends. This is not to say that DAs are tools. They share the same goals and accept the “aid” of the Watchers consciously. Which is kind of weird given the DAs staunch Xenophobic attitude… But there might be a secret (well I’m convinced of it :)) that not only makes DAs tolerate the Watchers, but to share a symbiotic existence with them. Stretching this argument a bit (and I’m gonna get some flak here) if anything DAs are dependent to the Watchers in order to function. *ducks for cover*

 

 

 

I'm with you on that, but let me just clarify a few things.

 

I don't think that the watchers are subordinates of the Lion, I believe that there is a very respectful alliance between the watchers and the Lion, I think that the watchers, although very powerful, recognised that the lion was a man of great leadership and strategy, and although the watchers operate by themselves and are in no way under the command of the lion, they must recognise that the fight against chaos is a lot stronger with him at the helm, and so they aid him respectfully, rather than being servants of the primarch or the chapter.

Plus, Johnson did cleanse the watcher's homeland from chaos beasts, and although they were xenos, no quarrel between the watchers and the lion ever sprung up (apparently) which indicates that there must have been some sort of pre-existing friendship, or that from then, some sort of natural alliance was recognised.

Now that the lion is sleeping, they aid the recovery of their most powerful and important ally, they have loyalty to him, but not his army, which is why they don't run up and down the ranks, giving each marine a hand with something.

 

I think you're right about the watchers, with their own anti-chaos agenda, with the DA being the vehicle, but I feel it's due to the astartes (and the Lion's leadership) that the fight against chaos can go for as long and as far as it does, they are necessary for war against the forces of chaos and the watchers know this, that while they are individually more powerful, the marines lead the fight, without them, the fight against chaos would inevitably be doomed, and I think that the watchers know their place.

[Brother Kovash]

My friend, who plays Dwarves in Warhammer Fantasy, swears that the Watchers are really Chaos Dwarves, and that they are the dark secret our Legion is hiding. :P

[Phoebus]

Things we know about the Watchers:

 

1. They predate the coming of the Lion and the Emperor. ("Descent of Angels", preface)

2. They are considered benign and seen as guardian-like/helpful entities, perhaps superstitiously, by the people of Caliban. Though considered entities of the spirit world, traditionalists believe they can intercede on behalf of living mortals, and those offerings are made for their help. ("Descent of Angels", pg 92-93)

3. They can sense psychic potential power in someone ("Descent of Angels", pg 98). They ascribe such potential as a "taint"; alternately, they can literally sense a "taint" or darkness in someone. On the other hand, they could be referring to Sorcery: "Look not to unlock the door that leads to easy power, Zahariel of the Order. Ride back to the lightning tree and you will find what you seek." ("Descent of Angels", pg 100)

4. They are (most likely) members of "a cabal dedicated to thwarting the most ancient evil" ("Descent of Angels", pg 99). In the same page, that evil is more or less revealed to be Chaos, and stated in a way that links with "Legion".

5. Like the Cabal of "Legion", the Watchers believe that "Evil such as this can never be defeated. It can be held at bay for a time, but so long as there are humans, it will exist" ("Descent of Angels", pg 99). This same position is repeated in "Fallen Angels". (pg 169)

6. Their true function is implied to be watching/guarding over Caliban, presumably because of the daemon there. ("Fallen Angels", pg 170)

7. In 2E, Luther stated that "the Primarch had been carried away by the Watchers in the Dark ..." (Codex: Angels of Death, pg 13)

8. Thanks to a psychic talent of theirs, they are invulnerable to all attacks. (Codex: Angels of Death, pg 41)

9. They watch/shadow trusted Brethren who would make prospective candidates for the Deathwing. (Codex: Dark Angels, pg 11)

 

Things we know about the Cabal:

A. They need the Emperor taken out: ‘It has been farseen. He will die forever. And his eternal death is the one thing we wish to prevent." ("Legion", pg 131)

B. They tested out the Dark Angels "... first, centuries ago. There is too much inherent corruption in them." ("Legion", pg 131)

 

If Item 8 still holds true (it's not mentioned in the new Codex), then the Supreme Grand Master absolutely wants to have the Watchers by him.

 

Beyond that, though, I think we need to be prepared for the possibility that the Watchers being around the Dark Angels is bad, bad news.

 

The Watchers in the Dark potentially stood guard over Caliban (which may or may not have been their homeworld), probably because of the demonic entity held captive within it. Who knows, they (alone, or with the rest of the Cabal) might have even imprisoned it there. Lion El'Jonson then arrived. At some point, the Cabal sought to recruit Jonson. They refer to the Dark Angels as inherently corrupt in "Legion", but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The Watchers assumed Zahariel (a psyker) was tainted right off the bat, after all. Alternately, they might have been dismissed as corrupt precisely because Caliban was corrupt, and thus felt they couldn't take the chance. Regardless, the Lion was NOT chosen.

 

The Cabal subscribe to an agenda that requires for Humanity to die in order for the rest of the Galaxy. We have two potential scenarios springing from this:

I. The Watchers in the Dark do NOT necessarily agree with the rest of the Cabal. Their actions in "Descent of Angels" and "Fallen Angels" indicate their willingness to help human beings (even if their statements in the latter novel indicate they don't seem to think it will make a difference).

II. The Watchers in the Dark agree with the rest of the Cabal. Whatever their actions ten thousand years ago or now, their ultimate aim is to see the Galaxy freed of our species.

 

SCENARIO I:

Have the Watchers just given up on the Cabal's schemes? The rest of the Cabal seems to have. There hasn't been much action on the "end the Emperor's eternal death" front.

 

If that is the case, have the Watchers adopted the Unforgiven as their pet cause? It sure seems like it. They are, at the very least, keeping tabs over their prospective leaders (those being considered for the Deathwing).

 

They recovered the Lion's comatose (?) body. Why? What have they been doing with him for ten thousand years? Is the Lion still somehow wounded/recovering? Are they shaping him to be something more than that - Humanity's representative in a resurgent Cabal that might aim to undo the endless reign of stagnation and misery that plagues the Galaxy? Could one Primarch - equipped with the long view and a willingness to fight alongside xenos - make a difference against Chaos?

 

SCENARIO II:

This one is, admittedly, a stretch.

 

Are the Watchers manipulating the Dark Angels to bring about the events the Cabal strove for with the Alpha Legion ten thousand years ago? The Dark Angels are slaves to their secrets. The Watchers at the very least keep tabs over those who are slated to join the Deathwing (and, eventually, the Inner Circle - the body that is in charge of maintaining said secrets), and potentially help to select said membership. At the same time, Cypher is supposedly making his way to Terra with a sword that appears to be a Primarch's weapon. Somehow, he keeps escaping the Dark Angels - sometimes through outright supernatural means. Does Cypher possess a weapon capable of slaying a god? Are the Dark Angels inadvertently helping him in his quest by maintaining the secret of his existence? Are the Watchers facilitating his inexorable progress by helping him elude capture?

 

They recovered the Lion's comatose (?) body. Why? What have they been doing with him for ten thousand years? Is the Lion their ace in the hole? The substitute Horus who is unleashed on the Imperium after the Emperor's death, to achieve the same self-destructive ends as Lupercal?

 

Thoughts? Comments? I have to dine before I can ponder on this more.

[Interrogator Stobz]

SENARIO 3

The watchers are NOT in the Cabal mentioned in Legion and are pursuing something else.

 

Great points and great point of view P, how the hell do you manage to quote pages so easily, do you have a servitor working for you?

 

s

[NightrawenII]

But what I'm particularly interested in, is their day-to-day function within the DAs chapter.

What I'm interested in first and foremost is whether the Watchers co-exist exclusively with Dark Angels and live only on in Rock or if their cooperation encompasses other Unforgiven Chapters as well.

[Phoebus]

SENARIO 3

The watchers are NOT in the Cabal mentioned in Legion and are pursuing something else.

True, this possibility can't be arbitrarily dismissed.

 

Great points and great point of view P, how the hell do you manage to quote pages so easily, do you have a servitor working for you?

 

s

I travel a lot, so the ebooks have been a better bargain for me. Command+F plus a few key words makes for an easy task! ^_^

 

 

But what I'm particularly interested in, is their day-to-day function within the DAs chapter.

What I'm interested in first and foremost is whether the Watchers co-exist exclusively with Dark Angels and live only on in Rock or if their cooperation encompasses other Unforgiven Chapters as well.

Last night, I found myself wondering whether the Watchers in the Dark operate outside the Rock (as in, on the warships of the Dark Angels abroad). If they keep tabs over those prospective candidates of the Deathwing, do they only do so while they're back on the Rock? I would assume not... they carry Azrael's helmet for him in battle, and this means they travel.

 

Sadly, the good folks at Forgeworld didn't take the opportunity to even mention the Watcher during Azrael's unfortunate duel in that conflict.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Captain Semper]

Interestingly the Watchers are never mentioned in the 40k lore outside of Caliban (or what's left of it) - excluding the helmet carrier for obvious reasons. My tendency would be to say they are indigenous only on the Rock. They might travel with the DAs but do not live anywhere else...

 

They might have some representation in the HQs of other Unforgiven but I don't think this is either explicitly supported or denied by any piece of fluff. Having said that I haven't read all the HH books. :tu: