Codex Marines versus Monstrous Creatures

[ShinyRhino]

My FLGS has been seeing a steady increase in the number of armies fielding Monstrous Creatures in the last several months.

Daemons players with 3 Princes, Chaos Marines with max Princes, Nids with Trygons/Tervigons/Mawlocs/Tyrannofex/Carnifex, Necrons with C'Tan Shards, etc. While one monster is ok to deal with (hammer it with all the S8+ weapons in your arsenal til it evaporates), taking on 3+ is much harder.

How do Codex Marine players deal with multiple Monsters, especially those with wings? I've found that focus fire is nice, but when you have 3 models that can smash any unit in your army to pieces, you can't focus fast enough.

How are you coping with the abundance of MCs these days?

[Something Wycked]

I had tried a LRC with 5/3 Hammernators/Clawnators, but they were swamped and killed by Gaunts from the 3 Tervigons. In fact, the only MC I killed that game was the Zoa, and that was due to an unheard-of hit from the Tacticals' heavy weapon (normally, it never does anything).

 

My usual set up is a lot better- massed heavy weapons. My Devs, shooty Dreads, MM/AC Speeders, and Vindicators do a damn fine job of taking down the big beasties.

[greatcrusade08]

sternguard, snipers, plasma and ML/lascannons..

 

preferably multiples of the above

i find if an Mc has average intiative or less, Ctans, fexes etc, anything with S5 or higher can kill it in assault, ive done it with khan and scouts before now

[breng77]

It depends on the creatures, and your list. I had success dealing with them using my bike army due to high ammounts of melta and plasma weapons. Many of these MCs have at best a 5+ invul, so putting a lot of armor ignoring fire power into them kills them pretty quick. Missile launchers also help quite a bit.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

What you see alot of the times is that MCs don't have Eternal Warrior so anything that cause Instant Death like Khans sword or a force weapon would do great against theses MCs. But not all of them are like the Daemons and C'tans just find if the MC has EW and if it doesn't then try for stuff with Instant Death against it because a Force Weapon against a Fex makes for a sad squished bug.

[ak-73]

Also having a throw-away unit to feed to the enemy to delay them and gain another turn of shooting.

 

Plus: yesterday I removed a Prime with scout squad through no retreat wounds. Essentially he got attached to a termagant unit to protect him from my firepower but the unit got charged from the side by my scouts so that the Prime wasn't able to join melee the first round. In the end the 6 man scouts removed a Prime, a whole termagant unit of like 15 critters plus 4 hormagaunts or so - losing 2 men in the process. You get those creature stuck in melee with a cheap units of yours, you delay them, you hurt them through no retreat.

 

Don't think weapons only, think tactics.

 

Alex

[Olis]

Favourite problem solving tool - my Sternguard. Special ammo is an immensely useful item (what's that? 2+ to wound? He's dead, Jim).

[ak-73]

Not against W6, Sv 3+ or 2+ (Tyrannofex). You'll need to put 18 or 36 wounds on that critter with Hellfire. You normally don't do that with a single round of rapid fire. Combi-Melta or combi-plasma are better. Now genestealers, they die to hellfire like flies.

 

Alex

[Olis]

You should see the luck my mates have sometimes. It's atrocious. One round of rapidfire has, in the past, killed some very big gribblies. :D But yes, you're right, some combi-weapon fire is far better than Special ammo in felling the big 'uns when they're still mostly unwounded (it's just a shame they're one shot items).

[Seneschal of the Seventh]

I rarely leave the battlebarge without the following (1750-2000 point games):

 

Libby (Null Zone, Avenger)

 

5x Sternguard, 5x Combi-Plasmas

LC/TLPG Razorback

 

6x Sternguard, 5x Combi-Plasmas, Heavy Flamer

LC/TLPG Razorback

 

These are my ace-in-the-hole units, held either in tactical reserve (hiding) or actual off-the-board reserve, their purpose is to move up and provide multi-role firepower once the enemy has committed their attack. Against Tyranid MCs, 12 rapid-firing plasma guns will put out a world of hurt, though you'll take a loss or two to overheats. Against Demons, TH/SS Terminators, C'Tan, or anything else that relies on their invulnerable, add Null Zone to taste. The best part is that after you've blown your plasmas against the primary threat, you still retain some serious firepower with the Special Issue ammo, twin flame templates, and LC/TLPG razors.

 

Other suggestions here are quite good - No Retreat! wounds can really put a crimp in a big gribbly's day, especially if you can use cheap units to do the dirty work. The tactic is a little bit harder when fighting units that are not independent characters (and so will have to be linked the a combat by basing them), bit is still viable. If you can get a durable (Storm Sheild equipped) unit in base with both the MC and the weaker unit, you create a linked combat which can force No Retreat! wounds onto the MC.

 

Blocking units with Rhinos can also be an effective strategy, especially if the MC in question has a moderate number of attacks and/or no re-rolls. A pair of rhinos moving 12" and stopping 1" in front of the MC (place them butt-to-butt for a nice long wall) will force the charge, and force the MC to only hit on 6s. Assuming the MC does kill a Rhino (or two, who cares?), he has moved a mere 1" this turn. If he decides to go around, well, rinse and repeat. This does not work, of course, if the MC is supported by units capable of dealing with a pair of rhinos in the shooting phase.

 

If you have access to veteran skills, a unit of furious charging lightening claws will utterly wreck the game for any MC out there without high initiative.

[Warp Angel]

- High volumes of special and heavy weapons helps.

- Knowledge that you're going to lose things to the fast and winged gribblies.

- Figuring out which big gribblies you can ignore, which you can outrun, and which need to die.

- Being able to concentrate special and heavy weapons on a single big gribblie at a time.

- Not being afraid to sacrifice a unit (or multiple units) to eliminate the big gribblies from effectiveness.

- Deploying in a way to minimize the big gribblies effectiveness or to draw them into a trap of my choosing.

- Playing to the mission.

 

In a word, tactics.

[Excubitor]

My friend stopped taking too many monstrous creatures after a few bad run-ins with my favourite single-model wrecking crew.

 

Librarian, Epistolary, Terminator Armour, Storm Shield, Might of the Ancients, Vortex of Doom. 190 points of destruction.

 

Admittedly, there has been a few occaisions where he's had more than his fair share of luck, but for me he's always been a reliable deterrent against monstrous units. Some games I switch out Vortex for Avenger or Might for Nullzone, depending on the army I play. Hammernators don't seem scary once you null and vortex their unit, and MC really don't like str 6 and force weapon ID.

 

Another way to deal with them is simply slow them down. Thunderfire cannon, speedbump rhino's, these things can be used well to cause congestion and slow armies down to a trickle.

 

Another tactic is to throw a unit that they can't really ignore in a drop pod and DS behind the line. Sternguard with/out Lysander/Kantor/Calgar, a couple Dreadnoughts, even just teleporting a Termintor squad or outflanking a Scout Bike unit behind them can throw off any plans and force them to use units they really didn't want to to go the wrong way for a turn or two. Divide and Conquer, it always works for me.

 

As others have said, Sternguard and Snipers with their poisoned shots are brilliant. Especially snipers. I don't know why, but I never get rending shot with my snipers except when I shoot againt MC's, then it's 4+ rending in a single volley. That, and my ML finally decides to role something other than 1's.

[Hellios]

I have to say it depends on what you are taking on and how your list is built... what else they have... As with everything else it is about target priority... You need to figure out if the gribble or the biggies are more dangerous.

[DarkGuard]

Fortunately my LGS doesn't have many MCs, something to do with the price I guess. However, for the odd one that pops up I normally rely on my Sternguard. Between hellfire rounds and combi-meltas (if they haven't fired them and won't get a better target) MCs tend to go down quite quickly. Of course, that's one MC, but I can also rely on my Typhoons and the couple of lascannons I have, while if they don't have many wounds left I may risk my Honour Guard and their multitude of powered attacks against low iniative ones. Of course, melta speaks for itself.

 

When I ran two dual-plasma Tacticals in midfield that also tended to the do the trick, 4 S7 low AP shots are pretty good for taking out MCs. In the end it depends on your list and LGS, but there are quite a few things out there. Typhoons, combi-preds, Sternguard, Scout snipers, double CML Terminators, Assault Terminators, missile spam in general, all of these are good ways to take down MCs. The trick is not including them or using them properly, but including them in a list that doesn't hamper itself against non-MC opposition.

[MagicMan]

Probably not at all that effective, but i usually throw my relic blade-toting Captain at them. Posthumous medals all round.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Also want to add this. You can tank shock a MC with a Rhino too. Its rare but sometimes your enemy will try and hit it and fluff all the rolls making a dead MC and a Rhino driver with an awesome story of glory.

 

If he doesn't attack it you still can make it move farer away from the units you don't want the MC to get to.

[spartan249]

MCs have never been a problem for me, as I usually bring an army chock-full of lascannons and missile launchers, and such weapons normally ignore the really good saves on most MCs. For those with invuls, I throw in that Null Zone libby to reduce the chances further.

 

For the ones that do make it to me, the Hammernators are usually enough to kill them (mainly because of Null Zone. I think it's a great force multiplier against most armies). However, for those MC armies without wings for the most part, reaching an optimal engagement range is a bit unrealistic due to the vehicular nature of the army.

 

My Iron Hands may have a few glaring weaknesses, but elite type armies like MC heavy armies are definitely not one of them. In fact, most of my very solid wins with my Iron Hands were against MC/Terminator heavy armies.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Its the same with my Iron Hands. Between a full squad of scout snipers and the massed batteries of plasma I bring, I usually have no problems with MCs, and I can still cover down on hordes thanks to my TFC.

[greatcrusade08]

TFC.

the greatest war machine ever created :D

[Elric the Silvercoat]

TFC.

the greatest war machine ever created :D

I have two and you can do stupid stuff with them on the field.

[Captain Idaho]

I find Typhoons are best for killing MCs, except those 2+ cheaters. :confused:

 

Those 2+ save MCs aren't too widespread thankfully, since to get such a save generally are slow moving and short reach and thus not so popular in many lists. Dreadknights are a notable exception, as are Tyrannofex. The latter isn't such a common problem though it is dang hard to eliminate with long ranged punch whilst there are other beasties about.

 

The former is a serious problem, especially since everything else in the Grey Knights' list is so dangerous too! Being able to move 30" or move 12" and assault makes a MC with a 2+ and invulnerable save a dangerous prospect.

 

Plasma Guns and even counter charges are important in these circumstances. Always have a few plasma guns in lists for such an occassion, and keep a stout heart when dedicating target priority.

[Laughingdagger]

I find Typhoons are best for killing MCs, except those 2+ cheaters. :D

 

Those 2+ save MCs aren't too widespread thankfully, since to get such a save generally are slow moving and short reach and thus not so popular in many lists. Dreadknights are a notable exception, as are Tyrannofex. The latter isn't such a common problem though it is dang hard to eliminate with long ranged punch whilst there are other beasties about.

 

The former is a serious problem, especially since everything else in the Grey Knights' list is so dangerous too! Being able to move 30" or move 12" and assault makes a MC with a 2+ and invulnerable save a dangerous prospect.

 

Plasma Guns and even counter charges are important in these circumstances. Always have a few plasma guns in lists for such an occassion, and keep a stout heart when dedicating target priority.

 

 

You're forgetting Ghazkgul and Mephiston :)

[Something Wycked]

Neither of which are MC's, Laughing :blush:

[Captain Idaho]

Yep, both dangerous but plasma helps greatly against nasty special characters like that.

[Gornall]

I run shooty Smurfs and my favorite thing to make MCs cry is MM Attack Bikes. 2+ or 3+ doesn't matter when you can stay at 24" constantly pinging them with S8 AP1. Typhoons work really well for the same reason against 3+ Save MCs. Riflemen Dreads also do a number on the poor Harpys you might occassionally see. Against Demon Princes, though... just swamp them with Bolters/Heavy Bolters. I've killed more DPs with Rhino Stormbolters than anything else...

 

At 2K I also tend to have a cheap Null Zone Librarian in a Vanilla LR with TH/SS Termies sitting in the middle of my lines. Any MCs that survive the hail of fire directed at them (including the TLLCs and MM from the LR) are greeted with some TH/SS love.