Gift of Chaos Clarification

[MalteseFalcon]

Hello all.

 

Just a question for GoC, but if I have 10 models within 6" of my Sorcerer could I cast GoC on them all??

 

Currently me and my mates are debating if this is feasible or not.

[Thor{DoH}]

GoC specifically states you select an enemy model, so no you can't cast it on 10 different models. Do you maybe mean Nurgle's Rot?

[MalteseFalcon]

Yes it does it state an enemy model, but how many times can it be cast??

 

Unless I'm getting confused with Ahriman and his psychic storm of beat

[Thor{DoH}]

Normal rules for psykers in any army is they can only cast one power per-turn. The exceptions come in the form of wargear and special characters and those exceptions are explicitly stated, such as Ahriman being able to cast three per-turn. With a Sorcerer you only get to cast two powers a turn if you have the mark of Tzeentch, otherwise it's just one power.

[Excessus]

Ahriman is also the only one in the chaos dex to be able to cast the same power twice in the same turn thanks to his amazing staff!

[breng77]

Pretty much as above, Psychic powers (per GW faq) can only be cast once per turn (per psyker), unless specifically stated.

[Kristoff]

Hello all.

 

Just a question for GoC, but if I have 10 models within 6" of my Sorcerer could I cast GoC on them all??

 

Currently me and my mates are debating if this is feasible or not.

 

Of course you could cast GoC on them all, one turn at a time. If you want to do more per turn, get a TS unit, give the AS GoC, and then plop 2 more Sorcerers in there all with GoC.

 

Planetstrike gets really nasty because you can add a 3rd Sorcerer in there. 4 GoC per turn can mess up a unit, especially if half or more turn to Spawn...

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

get a TS unit, give the AS GoC

 

Ewwww, no!

 

@OP, if it was that way it might be in line with that insane Necron line laser! I would approve.

[Kristoff]

get a TS unit, give the AS GoC

 

Ewwww, no!

 

I didn't say it was the BEST way to do it. I was just pointing out the only way to get a large number of those castings off. Outside of the HQs, the Aspiring Sorcerer in a Thousand Sons unit is the only way.

[Hellios]

Also remember that turn is player turn and not game turn... So unless GoC states that you can only do it in your turn... you can spawn people in the enemies turn! I can't remember now... I used to spawn a lot but it has been ages since I used my GoC list and I don't have the dex on me...

[MalteseFalcon]

Thanks for the help guys =)

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Chaos turn only :confused:

[Possessed Marine]

I would forgo the sorcerers altogether and use daemon princes with GoC. Because then you have a useful HQ choice instead of a one-trick pony.

[Kristoff]

I would forgo the sorcerers altogether and use daemon princes with GoC. Because then you have a useful HQ choice instead of a one-trick pony.

 

I was thinking of Cost:Gift ratio and the ability for the Sorcerers to actually be IN the same unit as another caster, making it easier to have them all in range.

[Possessed Marine]

hmmm... Sorcerer with nothing but GoC = 130 pts

 

DP with nothing but GoC = 140 pts

 

the sorcerer's MoT is 10 points more expensive than the DP's but all the powers cost the same, so if you go that route they end up being the exact same cost for the exact same psychic abilities. Sure you could put the sorc in with another unit in a rhino, or you could give the DP wings & hide him behind a rhino, so you get the same psy abilities & a combat brute that's far harder to kill.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

The sorcerer can GoC super killy enemy stuff such as C'tan, Mawlock, Carnifex, Fateweaver, etc. in your turn

 

and then use his force weapon in the enemy turn, something a demon prince with 4 attacks can't do easily!

 

Call me bias but I am a fan of PA sorcerers.

[the jeske]

puting the whole GoC aside[which cant realy be done without help from the opponent] and the fact that a sorc costs x3 times what a DP costs . how are str 4 force weapon attacks on a model that has no eternal warrior better then attacks from a DP with higher str ?

[Bloodcrusade]

puting the whole GoC aside[which cant realy be done without help from the opponent] and the fact that a sorc costs x3 times what a DP costs . how are str 4 force weapon attacks on a model that has no eternal warrior better then attacks from a DP with higher str ?

Killed 3 Tervigons in Close Combat with Ahriman the other day. Didn't even have Warptime up on the last kill because Ahriman only had one wound and I didn't want to chance Shadow of the Hive Mind making him take a wound. All you need is to cause a single wound to pop something.

Basic Sorcerer has 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hit, 1 wound, blammo goes MC. Daemon Prince has 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hit...doesn't matter from there because he's not going to cause enough wounds to down the 4+ wound MC. This case the Sorcerer wins the fight. If you're throwing them against something with Eternal Warrior yes the Daemon Prince wins, but at that point GoC comes to mind.

 

I'm with Ah-a-nothepsis, Power Armour Sorcerers rock face in CC. Build one something along the lines of:

Mark of Slaanesh

Lash

Meltabombs

Wings

150 pts

He's only 5pts less than a similar DP, however he can hide in a squad inside a transport, or deepstrike in with some Oblits to lash things into a pile for them and then break off the next turn to rock some face in CC. Utility is key but often forgotten in Chaos lists, personally I find DP's to be more one trick ponies then a Sorceror because they're only good at one thing and you're opponent can plan for them better.

Even Aspiring Sorcerers in Thousand Sons units are highly effective in CC, especially with all the 4++ saves keeping them around even against dedicated Assault units.

 

Alternatively there's Typhus, awesome crossbreed of a Lord and Sorcerer rolled into one. Unfortunately doesn't have GoC however but 4+ Poisoned Daemon Force Weapon is nothing to scoff at.

[Possessed Marine]

Just one thing about GoC vs MC... you have to roll over their toughness value. So looking at a DP's stats as an example, you need to roll 6+ just for that to work... in the mean time that sorc is eating four (five if he gets charged) high strength power weapon attacks.

 

EDIT: What I think GoC is really for is to just spawn a single guardsman or grot or something weak, and have the spawn do some of the heavy lifting for you... I know, stating the obvious, but it seems some people are thinking "GoC the meanest thing on the board"

[darth_giles]

Pretty much as above, Psychic powers (per GW faq) can only be cast once per turn (per psyker), unless specifically stated.

But if you look at the Chaos FAQ, it specifically says that Gift of Chaos can be cast multiple times per turn by a Tzeentch sorcerer, and suggests that any power that isn't a shooting attack can as well.

[the jeske]

Basic Sorcerer has 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hit, 1 wound, blammo goes MC.

yes we know the nids sucks . how do you do it against meq with +3inv and/or eternalw arrior and hoods/staffs/runes ?

+ ahriman walking alone has to be hit by a single str 8 shot and he dies . this means that 4 meltas on avarge kill him .

 

 

Basic Sorcerer has 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hit, 1 wound, blammo goes MC. Daemon Prince has 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hit...doesn't matter from there because he's not going to cause enough wounds to down the 4+ wound MC

am going to ignore for a second the fact of 3 tervigons in a single army and how did ahriman get in to hth with them [because to do that he had to walk through the whole nid army which means he had to kill either a tyrnant or a swarm lord on his way] . You bring the GoC as to how ahriman killed them [how do you cast 2 same powers per turn ? you can cast GoC and bolt at something else but you cant cast 2xGoC] , how is it possible that with a range of 6" and cast before movment a nid player[or any other player] kept 3 tervigons within range for your whole turn , then whole his turn ?

 

 

 

He's only 5pts less than a similar DP, however he can hide in a squad inside a transport, or deepstrike in with some Oblits to lash things into a pile for them and then break off the next turn to rock some face in CC.

if he needs a baby sitter squad then he doesnt cost 5pts less then a DP then he costs the cost of the squad more then a DP . Also again rock face in hth against what ? hidden fists kills him first turn of hth on avarge . he cant kill HQs in hth because of inv+3 and/or eternal warrior . If you put him in to a rhino he wont get in to hth . If you put him in to a LR he costs LR+unit+his own cost . three times the kill points 3xtimes+ the points of a DP .

 

 

 

Alternatively there's Typhus, awesome crossbreed of a Lord and Sorcerer rolled into one. Unfortunately doesn't have GoC however but 4+ Poisoned Daemon Force Weapon is nothing to scoff at.

and plop fist and there goes the LR cost HQ of doom .

[darth_giles]

He's only 5pts less than a similar DP, however he can hide in a squad inside a transport, or deepstrike in with some Oblits to lash things into a pile for them and then break off the next turn to rock some face in CC.

if he needs a baby sitter squad then he doesnt cost 5pts less then a DP then he costs the cost of the squad more then a DP . Also again rock face in hth against what ? hidden fists kills him first turn of hth on avarge . he cant kill HQs in hth because of inv+3 and/or eternal warrior . If you put him in to a rhino he wont get in to hth . If you put him in to a LR he costs LR+unit+his own cost . three times the kill points 3xtimes+ the points of a DP .

That's multiple- counting the points value of the squad, though.

 

Its like a guy on his way home from a business trip who stops at a store along the way and buys a toy for his child. His accountant wants to know why he paid several hundred dollars for a $15 toy. When asked about it, the accountant shows the guy a spreadsheet in which the total cost of the business trip had been added to that of the toy. The man says, "What's going on here, that was a business trip that I'd have taken anyway whether I bought the toy or not." The accountant tells him to please be quiet and that he has no understanding of accounting procedures.

 

Same thing is true here. If you have a squad of less than ten and you put the IC in with it, there's no reason to count the squad's points twice.

[Bloodcrusade]

am going to ignore for a second the fact of 3 tervigons in a single army and how did ahriman get in to hth with them [because to do that he had to walk through the whole nid army which means he had to kill either a tyrnant or a swarm lord on his way] . You bring the GoC as to how ahriman killed them [how do you cast 2 same powers per turn ? you can cast GoC and bolt at something else but you cant cast 2xGoC] , how is it possible that with a range of 6" and cast before movment a nid player[or any other player] kept 3 tervigons within range for your whole turn , then whole his turn ?

Pretty dang sure I made it clear Ahriman killed them in close combat, as in scored a wound, passed a psychic test on 3D6 because of Shadows, and blew the tervigon's brains out of its bunghole.

 

Tervigons may be taken as Troop choices for every unit of Termigaunts that is included in the army. So there is a total possible of 5 Tervigons you can have in one army....his list had 4, the Doom, and the Parasite. Oblits one-shot the Doom, and when the Parasite charged my Plague Marine squad on Turn 5 he only killed a single Plague, while the squad's powerweapon champ(Yes Powerweapon) caused 2 wounds and the joes did 1. Taking his fearless saves he failed one of the two and was removed as a casualty.

 

Also, Ahriman may cast the same power with all three of his tests, as long as it isn't a shooting power(Although he may cast 3 shooting powers as long as they are all directed against a single unit in the same Shooting Phase). This means Gift can be spammed 3xTimes while Ahriman is locked in assault with a squad of Gaunt/Guardsmen/Tacticals/whatever.

 

Now as for how he got into CC with them? He deployed in the middle of the table, right on the edge of his deployment zone, and started moving forward to try to crunch some Rhino's with their Crushing Claws. After using the Plague Marine squad's 2xFlamers on the gaunts that spawned, killing them all off when coupled with Wind of Chaos+Warptime, Ahriman and his squad charged a Tervigon. Ahriman had 5 hits, 2 wounds, passed test and blew up a MC. Next turn spawned gaunts charged and were taken out by combined Defensive grenades+Ahriman's strikes at Int5 followed by mass amounts of normal saves from the Plague Marines at Int3 with only one casualty on the Plagues. My turn I charged yet another Tervigon with Ahriman solo while the Plagues captured an objective, and killed it the same way, Warptime+Test=Dead MC from forceweapon. Finally on turn 5 I charged the last Tervigon on that side of the board and caused a single wound(With-out having Warptime up) and passed the Psychic test yet again to blast it to bits, only to be charged by Genestealers and killed by the broodlord.

The entire time Ahriman was making his 4++ Invuls and 3+ armours from multiple sources in the shooting phase.

 

Any questions as to why a Power Armoured Sorceror is great in CC, even against MCs? Don't throw them at Eternal Warrior's no, but really there isn't much that sports Eternal Warrior that people will actually bring in a common army list anyways.

 

Also, stop assuming there's always going to be a freakin' fist in every single squad you will ever see ever, because that's not going to be the case every single time. It's like saying "Don't bring Oblits! Powerfists!". Really.....he's a beast of an IC and 90% of the time makes more than his points back with-out trying.

[the jeske]

Tervigons may be taken as Troop choices for every unit of Termigaunts that is included in the army. So there is a total possible of 5 Tervigons you can have in one army

yes I know I play nids . to have 3 tervigons a nid army would have to be more then 2500pts . From the write up you gave [fex, parasite etc] I assume the nid army was a very non standard one .

 

 

 

Also, stop assuming there's always going to be a freakin' fist in every single squad you will ever see ever, because that's not going to be the case every single time

realy what armies end up in hth are dont have fist . IG ? doesnt matter , if you got in to hth then his army lost [or your fighting a multi comisar blob and your HQ is dead or will be dead next turn] . All meq armies . fists . with exeptions . GK . nemesis thunder hammers and possible halabards . BT [only 1A on fists because of no sgts] but most of their builds are tailored around shoting [2cyclons with tank hunter on termis +termi bodyguards with same set ups .+errated land speeders+minimax can do that to an army] , if your in hth then your opponent lost . Doesnt matter what kind of HQ you have in hth with him . orcs . claws same as fists different name . nids if your in hth then its either guants which are tar pits or its stealers . If its stealer then the HQ is eating A at high I from the blood lord[cant be singled out] and any stealers in range which can hit him . DE no fists . If its trueborn or warriors this means that you somehow managed to shot it down and charge and the DE player didnt have a counter unit in range[bit hard to do considering open toped and all] to intercept your unit. If the DE unit is ment for hth the sorc is dead .

Tau . they didnt move from a 6" charge range when they die from any form of assault . gift doesnt matter because the tau player just lost the game . etc etc

 

So see fists are a problem , because sorc like any other chaos hq work best in hth and in hth you face fists . oblits dont have to fear fists because they dont go in to hth , and if they do end up in hth this means either you made mistakes[no counter units because your HQ is stuck in a rhino and cant move12" and then assault] or all your opponent had the fire power to kill your whole army or at least the counter unit [it does happen sometimes against some of the gunline lists] .

 

 

Any questions as to why a Power Armoured Sorceror is great in CC, even against MCs? Don't throw them at Eternal Warrior's no, but really there isn't much that sports Eternal Warrior that people will actually bring in a common army list anyways.

\

ok stuff you end up in hth in 5th ed are either faster then a sorc [mefiston , DE HQ , Gk with halabards tyrants , swarm lords ] have eternal warrior [sW TWC lords, lysander, draigo, calgar. chaos DP , sob saint in a special way ] or are not in hth because they are not ment for hth . Your going to send a sorc [which costs more then a DP] against what tacticals ? and hope there is no hood or counter unit in range and the tac just happen to not have a fist inside . Even when figthing against fistless horde[more or less nids only] the sorc will lose wounds due to haveing a +3sv . and when he is at 1-2 wounds your going to what , cast spawn to kill yourself with shadow ? the next charge against any unit other then a biovore wont kill him ? Specialy as you cant realy stay at range like other meq librarians and just do support because A no hood/staff B powers is 6" pre movment .

 

 

 

 

 

That's multiple- counting the points value of the squad, though.

how ? lets say I take a list like this .

2xDP

3xtroops

oblits

 

I have 3 troops 2DP and 2-3 units of oblits . my list has 7-8 targets 3 of which will smoke turn one 2 of which will get cover 100% from rhinos and 2-3 ]the oblits] which may or may not get cover[if they dont then I was unable to do a rhino wall and there is a glass plain we are playing on . not that it doesnt happen].

If I take 2xsorc instead of the DPs . the first problem is points . either I cut wings and make the bolted to the units [bad] or I do give them wings but then they cost like DPs [or more if I go for MoT , so I lose oblits or have to play with 5 man pm minimax or am forced to drop asp champions and fists] .

 

but the real problem starts on my opponents turn . when before he had 7-8 targets to shot at now he has 5-6 . it is easier for him to focus fire the rhinos with the sorc and then the points I spent on them[with the potential hits to the army unit selection I had to take too] is wasted , because wings or not the sorc still cant get out of the unit and do stuff alone [or rather he can , but then he dies] .

 

A DP works always . It doesnt need a support unit . It draws away fire from my other units . He costs what he costs . A sorc needs support , he cant do stuff alone , actualy he dies alone while not realy giving any buffs better then the DP . that is why he costs like the formation he has to be used in .

And before you say , but I buy the squad to fullfile the same role they would do if I took the DP , I say you dont . First of all the DP has a longer range it can assault and counter stuff easier . The sorc who is bolted to his babysitters cant do that, but it also works the other way around too. Your 5man 2xmelta squads wants to light up a tank/transport ? cool but this means getting in to 12" range[i know its actualy 14"] or lower , what if the sorc isnt in range of anything then . with a DP there is never such a problem the DP does his thing , the unit does its . When you run around with a HQ+squad you cant do that . need to sacrifice a unit or tar pit something . ok job for 7 pms or 10 csm , but not when they have a sorc with them . you cant leave the unit because if you do your risking instant death [it doesnt even have to be str8ap3 enough if its str 8 shotsx3or more] .

that is why the squad costs double . It has to do two things at the same time and its offten two very different things.

One the other spectrum of this are SW LF . one unit 5/7RL[ iftermi with cylcon] can target 2 things . Its like 2 devastator units for a cost of one.

[darth_giles]

That's multiple- counting the points value of the squad, though.

how ? lets say I take a list like this .

2xDP

3xtroops

oblits

 

I have 3 troops 2DP and 2-3 units of oblits . my list has 7-8 targets 3 of which will smoke turn one 2 of which will get cover 100% from rhinos and 2-3 ]the oblits] which may or may not get cover[if they dont then I was unable to do a rhino wall and there is a glass plain we are playing on . not that it doesnt happen].

If I take 2xsorc instead of the DPs . the first problem is points . either I cut wings and make the bolted to the units [bad] or I do give them wings but then they cost like DPs [or more if I go for MoT , so I lose oblits or have to play with 5 man pm minimax or am forced to drop asp champions and fists] .

 

but the real problem starts on my opponents turn . when before he had 7-8 targets to shot at now he has 5-6 . it is easier for him to focus fire the rhinos with the sorc and then the points I spent on them[with the potential hits to the army unit selection I had to take too] is wasted , because wings or not the sorc still cant get out of the unit and do stuff alone [or rather he can , but then he dies] .

Nobody ever puts a relatively harmless troops choice in a rhino that's so decked out it looks like it includes the HQ character? Or dressed your HQ character so they'll be easily missed in a squad? There's a difference between being a sneaky git and an outright cheater.

 

A DP works always . It doesnt need a support unit . It draws away fire from my other units . He costs what he costs . A sorc needs support , he cant do stuff alone , actualy he dies alone while not realy giving any buffs better then the DP . that is why he costs like the formation he has to be used in .

And before you say , but I buy the squad to fullfile the same role they would do if I took the DP , I say you dont . First of all the DP has a longer range it can assault and counter stuff easier . ]The sorc who is bolted to his babysitters cant do that, but it also works the other way around too. Your 5man 2xmelta squads wants to light up a tank/transport ? cool but this means getting in to 12" range[i know its actualy 14"] or lower , what if the sorc isnt in range of anything then .

No, but Fleshy Curse isn't a shooting attack and will probably be in range of something if the melta squad blows up its target. Only shooting attacks have to go at the same target. And IIRC, Fleshy Curse also doesn't require LOS so if they deploy on the far side of the vehicle.

 

I'm guessing you also never take a squad with flamers? Put a Winds of Chaos sorcerer in a flamer squad and use him for a third template. Or give one a jump pack and Warptime and have him follow a unit of CC raptors, or either Bolt of Change or Fleshy Curse with tank hunting raptors. Or any psychic power, terminator armor, and drop him in with a unit of Oblits. So there's more to a sorcerer than just dead weight.

 

with a DP there is never such a problem the DP does his thing , the unit does its . When you run around with a HQ+squad you cant do that . need to sacrifice a unit or tar pit something . ok job for 7 pms or 10 csm , but not when they have a sorc with them . you cant leave the unit because if you do your risking instant death [it doesnt even have to be str8ap3 enough if its str 8 shotsx3or more] .

that is why the squad costs double . It has to do two things at the same time and its offten two very different things.

Doesn't look like it from where I'm sitting. The sorcerer can be set up to work with the squad instead of against it.