Gift of Chaos Clarification

[Bloodcrusade]

The sorcerer can be set up to work with the squad instead of against it.

Exactly, which is the beauty of the Sorceror, he can be made to do what you need him to. The Wind of Chaos worked beautifully with the 2xFlamers from the Plagues in my game and completely wiped out spawned units each turn, allowing my other squads to do what they needed to.

 

And jeske, you have such a narrow minded attitude towards the game it's kind of depressing. You have no room for flair or creativity in any of your posts and say the same thing over and over as though it is the god's honest truth to be the only thing to work. Your lists have no combinations, no tricks, and no surprises or imagination to them. The Chaos Sorceror is a trick card, he's a surprise that you can combine with the other units in your army to provide tactical flexibility to manipulate the field to your advantage.

 

One favor to ask however, is to not trying to lecture me in a Black Templar army build. It's not a fight you can win, especially if you think the dual Cylone and typhoon speeder lists lose when they get into CC. There's a reason all of those lists still pick AAC as their Vow ^_^

[Possessed Marine]

I normally disagree with The Jeske, as he's a tourny player & mostly closed minded on lists... this is one of the few times that I agree wholeheartedly. The sorc just isn't worth the points as compared to a DP.

 

And as for fists inside of a squad... that's ALL of my squads. Even the 'zerks & pm's.

[Marshal Goderic]

Wow I'm amazed that people still even take daemon princes let alone others are strongly lobbying that they are a good idea. Especially from someone (jeske) who generally seems like they know what they're doing. DP is a waste and nothing else... holy duke! a T5 MC with a 3+ and EW, hey tac squad double tap that and adios DP. A sorc in a unit is infinitely more versatile now that chaos is so far behind in the power creep. A sorc can be kitted for different roles and or hidden as previously suggested, a DP? not so much, T5 and a 3+/5+ is not hard to take out, even if you give him MoN or MoT

 

on the hiding a sorc idea, it has never been my intention to do this but it often happens that my aspiring champ is mistaken for my HQ and my sorc (in the same unit normally) is often missed until the opponent starts needing to remove models. ^_^

 

as far as fists in squads, all smart players have them but not all players are smart ;)

[Rain]

Except that no? 20 bolter shots at a bog standard DP expect ~1.4 unsaved wounds, not even half of his total. If you swap out one of those bolters for a meltagun it gets a bit better, ditto with a missile launcher, but for the missile that squad would have to have been standing still, and the chances of a squad getting to double tap something that moves 12" and assaults 6" without having been moving around in a rhino themselves are virtually nil. Oh and if the prince in question happens to be Nurgle, bolters become an even less tenable solution.

 

This is why DP's attract anti tank fire, and yes they do die to it, but so do rhinos, and those are the things carrying your bread and butter units, which you ideally want to reach their targets as unmolested as possible, hence the DP bullet sponge.

[Marshal Goderic]

Math-hammer all you want real life happens :P and i don't know about you but i use tac squads and see tactical squads used for killing DP's via massed holy bolter fire and then a player need not waste anti tank firepower that's better spent cracking rhinos and such. If I mounted a head on a tac squad base for every DP that they've killed i'd run out of bases. It certainly sounds like others have had different experiences, personally I've had better luck running a point equivalent number of lesser daemons, they have more wounds and can function as a better sponge or bubblewrap (even taking into consideration the reserve chances). Mathhammering and statistically that may not bear out but this gamer's experience and actual results have.

 

heck riddle me this with the mathhammering; i have a friend that i play on a regular basis who plays Orks of the oh so shoddy BS of 2, when one of his loota units shoots 20 shots, they will regularly hit 13-16 of 20, odds say that shouldn't... but it still happens

[Rain]

You are exaggerating. Either that or his dice are loaded/miscast in a "lucky" manner. As the number of trials of a random variable with finite variance and a defined mean approach infinity, the sample mean approaches expected value. It's just the way the world works. And sure you've killed DP's with bolter fire. But how many games have you played? I remember once I charged my CC termis (back in 3.5 when there was such a thing) into a squad of guardsmen with an attached commissar. Killed like 2 guard, lost 3 terminators in response, lost the combat, the 2 survivors broke and ran and were run down. Does that mean that guardsmen were a CC counter to 3.5 era chosen termis? Flukes happen, but they are rare, that's the point.

 

Also, math does not preclude outliers, they are just very unlikely. Play enough games and maybe one day all of Khârn's attacks will hit his own side. I'm sure it's happened before, but it involves many hundreds and thousands of dice being rolled over many games by many people, and expecting the unlikely is not a good way to win a good portion of your games.

[Marshal Goderic]

not exaggerating at all & as you said "math does not preclude outliers, they are just very unlikely. " I admit it's unlikely but that still doesn't mean i don't see it happen and that it happens often enough to necessitate that I plan for it. Believe me when i say that i inspect the :nuke: dice every time his boys 'sharp-shoot' me, and they don't roll that well when I roll them, it is a regular frustration.

 

I'm amazed that you don't have any unique things that happen to your (or meta-game buddies) individual units on a regular basis, My TS termies go down like a cheap hooker to anything, so terribly that i just quit taking them (5 armour saves, 4 dead), a particular plasmagun model of mine has never lived through a game due to gets hot! failures... the list goes on

 

As far as games played, I've been playing since chaos codex 3.5 back in 04-ish avg 1-2 games a week, feel free to do the math :) (and also fyi i quit playing as chaos last jan, still play against them though)

[darth_giles]

Agreed, I've had "outliers" that were more common than actual results. Notably the old Plaguebearers wiping out entire squads just for being too close and Axes of Khorne getting three or four extra attacks per round. So that's why I place more stock in a WLT record than blind calculus.

[Rain]

None of which disagrees with my point. The probability of at least 3 sixes given say 6 attacks (not at all an unreasonable number for a 3.5 Khorne lord) is about 5.5%. So you should expect 1 in 18 times to get that many extra attacks, and that's not counting the asymptotically vanishing probabilities that you keep rolling 6's. That's far from an outlandish event, heck it's expected every once in a while, but it's not super common either and so shouldn't be counted on.