Templates and LoS

[Morollan]

The Immobilised entry on the vehicle damage table (pg61) says:

 

"An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place but its turret may continue to rotate to select targets, and other weapons retain their normal arc of fire"

 

The Walker rules tell us to "Pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target" and then goes on to talk about the 45 degree arc. A Walker is a vehicle and therefore it may not turn in place when immobilised, i.e. no pivoting. It doesn't have a turret so the next part is irrelevant and the final part tells us that the weapon retains its normal (45 degree) fire arc.

 

So an immobilised walker no longer pivots so that its guns are aimed at the target and can only fire at whatever it was facing when immobilised (within the fire arc of its weapons).

[Jacinda]

OK, the question was answered; thank you very much for helping me understand it.

 

The "Immobile" descriptor has no bearing on the question and in hind sight I should have left this and the rhino out of the scenario all together.

[Something Wycked]

And we have our answer.

The rules do not make distinction between hipped and non hipped walkers

The Immobilised entry on the vehicle damage table (pg61) says:

 

"An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place..."

 

If Walkers are Vehicles, and there is no distinction between "hipped" and "non-hipped" Walkers in the rules, and Immobilized Vehicles may not turn in place, then all Immobilized Walkers may not turn in place.

[PyronusSouria]

I think I have to disagree with the ruling on this topic when it comes to the actual topic :lol: I feel like the last picture contains the correct resolution. Nowhere in the rules does it say that templates ignore cover, rather they ignore cover saves. Also, it never says that templates can ignore LoS. So the way I see it, the template would need to be placed according to LoS, covering as many models as possible. This would mean it would have to be moved to cover the one sister on the side without passing through the rock.

 

There are other, non-template weapons that ignore cover, like those dragon-whatever bolts that Sternguard can fire. I wouldn't let a Sternguard squad fire through walls with them though.

[dswanick]

I think I have to disagree with the ruling on this topic when it comes to the actual topic ;) I feel like the last picture contains the correct resolution. Nowhere in the rules does it say that templates ignore cover, rather they ignore cover saves. Also, it never says that templates can ignore LoS. So the way I see it, the template would need to be placed according to LoS, covering as many models as possible. This would mean it would have to be moved to cover the one sister on the side without passing through the rock.

 

There are other, non-template weapons that ignore cover, like those dragon-whatever bolts that Sternguard can fire. I wouldn't let a Sternguard squad fire through walls with them though.

But it does - if the firing unit were firing a AP3/Heavy 3/Ignores Cover instead of the Flamer it would target the unit of Sisters because the one is visible. If, for arguments sake, the unit sustained three wounds, three sisters (some of which would be hidden behind the rock and out of LOS) would still be removed as casualties.

[PyronusSouria]

It can deal wounds around walls, but it can't shoot through them. If a template weapon dealt 2 wounds so that sister sticking out the side, it would kill another one, but suggesting that it can shoot through a wall because it ignores cover is absurd. The weapon ignores cover saves, not terrain. Since a flamer deals 1 wound to every model covered, that can't happen. The difference is dealing wounds that then kill models in cover and hitting models hidden behind total cover.

[Something Wycked]

LoS rules are such that if any part of the unit can be seen, the unit as a whole can be targeted. The rationale behind this is that the battlefield is not nearly as static as our tabletop models. Ergo, weapons in 40k can do things that appear to be shooting through walls- when they aren't really.

[dswanick]

It can deal wounds around walls, but it can't shoot through them. If a template weapon dealt 2 wounds so that sister sticking out the side, it would kill another one, but suggesting that it can shoot through a wall because it ignores cover is absurd. The weapon ignores cover saves, not terrain. Since a flamer deals 1 wound to every model covered, that can't happen. The difference is dealing wounds that then kill models in cover and hitting models hidden behind total cover.

Perhaps you should re-read the Line of Sight rules:

WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?

All models in the firing unit that have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit can fire.

Line of sight literally represents your warriors' view of the enemy - they must be able to see their foe through, under or over the tangle of terrain and other fighters on the battlefield.

...

Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean its head,

torso, legs and arms)

As a vehicle, the dread has slight modifications to these rules due to being a vehicle but they still allow the dread to fire on the Sisters unit because one of its models is visible.

Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models.

Once LoS is checked to allow a unit to fire on another unit it no longer plays a roll in the Shooting phase except to provide cover, which Template weapons ignore. The only prohibition Template weapons have on marker placement is that it may not be placed covering any friendly models. It has no prohibition on placing the marker on models not found to be in LoS.

[Something Wycked]

The only prohibition Template weapons have on marker placement is that it may not be placed covering any friendly models. It has no prohibition on placing the marker on models not found to be in LoS.

One more prohibition is placed on it (from the rule you quoted): it may not cover less than the largest amount of models. It must cover as many models as possible in the target unit. No mention of terrain blocking the way- it must.

[PyronusSouria]

Sorry, you guys are right :) I thought LoS with templates actually set where the template had to sit, since that was where it would technically be fired.

[Squirrelloid]

The only prohibition Template weapons have on marker placement is that it may not be placed covering any friendly models. It has no prohibition on placing the marker on models not found to be in LoS.

One more prohibition is placed on it (from the rule you quoted): it may not cover less than the largest amount of models. It must cover as many models as possible in the target unit. No mention of terrain blocking the way- it must.

 

Entertainingly enough, no minimum is placed on that maximum amount that can be covered. Ie, 0 is a valid maximum.

 

Templates don't measure range. They only check LoS from the firer to the target squad and then place the template. Once the template goes down it is firing whether it can reach the target squad or not, and *any* model touched is hit regardless of what squad its from. If it doesn't reach the target squad, the maximum amount of models from the target squad that can be touched is '0' and it can be faced in any direction persuant to the other rules governing templates (ie, not touching any friendly models), since all directions touch 0 models in the target squad. So light up a different enemy squad to your heart's content.

 

This suggests that a template weapon can actually hit models in a squad the firer can't see so long as the firer can see a different squad (which is targetted), the template can touch no models in that squad, and the squad which can't be seen has models which can be touched by the template.

[dswanick]

The only prohibition Template weapons have on marker placement is that it may not be placed covering any friendly models. It has no prohibition on placing the marker on models not found to be in LoS.

One more prohibition is placed on it (from the rule you quoted): it may not cover less than the largest amount of models. It must cover as many models as possible in the target unit. No mention of terrain blocking the way- it must.

 

Entertainingly enough, no minimum is placed on that maximum amount that can be covered. Ie, 0 is a valid maximum.

 

Templates don't measure range. They only check LoS from the firer to the target squad and then place the template. Once the template goes down it is firing whether it can reach the target squad or not, and *any* model touched is hit regardless of what squad its from. If it doesn't reach the target squad, the maximum amount of models from the target squad that can be touched is '0' and it can be faced in any direction persuant to the other rules governing templates (ie, not touching any friendly models), since all directions touch 0 models in the target squad. So light up a different enemy squad to your heart's content.

 

This suggests that a template weapon can actually hit models in a squad the firer can't see so long as the firer can see a different squad (which is targetted), the template can touch no models in that squad, and the squad which can't be seen has models which can be touched by the template.

Not entirely true. By RAW:

Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and...

Template weapons only alter the normal Shooting rules for "3. Roll to hit.". It makes no mention of altering the "2. Check range." step. Unfortunately, the weapon also doesn't give a Range for the weapon other than "Template", which can reasonably be determined to mean that if a model in the target unit is not touched by the Template then the "If a target is beyond this maximum range. the shot misses automatically." part of the rule comes into play and the shot missed completely. Then, of course, the rules expect us to further assume what happens to a Flamer template shot that misses, as it does not tell us.

 

So, while a Template weapon is expected to Check line of sight per step 1, and Check range per step 2 - it does not tell us how to check range. It assumes we will be smart enough to figure out that a "Range" of "Template" means that the Template must reach from the base of the firing model to a model in the target unit.

Then the weapon bypasses the Roll to hit step with alternate rules about Template placement, and never tells us how to handle Template placement if the shot was an "automatic miss" by not being in range.

Yeah, GW rules writers are my heroes... :)

[SeattleDV8]

No, that would not work,Squirrelloid.

BRB pg. 17

If a target is beyond this maximum range , the shot misses automatically.

 

The Range for a template weapon is the template, if no models from the targeted unit are under the template it 'misses automatically'.

[dswanick]

No, that would not work,Squirrelloid.

BRB pg. 17

If a target is beyond this maximum range , the shot misses automatically.

 

The Range for a template weapon is the template, if no models from the targeted unit are under the template it 'misses automatically'.

But I see where he's coming from, Seattle. Just because the Template "automatically missed" doesn't mean that the Template marker wasn't placed. Just as a Blast marker which scatters completely off the target unit may cause damage to units not targeted while causing no damage to the target unit - Squirrelloid is pointing out that the rules for Templates don't tell you to remove the Template marker and treat it as a non-shot if no models from the target unit are touched.

[Leonaides]

They dont need to. If you fir e abattlecannon at something out of range, you dont work out where the blast marker would have landed, do you? If you fire a template weapon and it doesnt hit the target unit at all, then the shot misses automatically.

[Something Wycked]

the shot misses automatically.

And it completely misses- there is no provision for "you missed your original target, but you're allowed to hit this other target..." The shot misses. Automatically misses. No hits allowed at all.

[dswanick]

They dont need to. If you fir e abattlecannon at something out of range, you dont work out where the blast marker would have landed, do you? If you fire a template weapon and it doesnt hit the target unit at all, then the shot misses automatically.

The rules for Blast markers account for this by clearly stating that you place the Blast marker and then check range to the center hole.

On the other hand, if you fire the Battlecannon at the target unit(by finding the hole is in range) you then have to scatter the marker to determine its final position.

BLAST

When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit. Istead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle. You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it.

 

Next, check if the shot has landed on target. If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed.

If the target is in range, the large area affected by the blast means it's going to be very hard to miss completely. Nonetheless. the shot may not land exactly where it was intended to. Roll the scatter dice and 2d6 to see where the shot lands. If the scatter dice rolls a hit symbol the shot lands on target (ignore the 2d6). If an arrow is rolled, the marker is shifted in the direction shown by the arrow a number of inches equal to the total of the 2d6 minus the firing model's BS(to a minimum of 0).

 

Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a scattering shot to land beyond the weapon's range and line of sight, representing the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random chance. In these cases hits areworked out as normal, and can hit units out of range and sight (or even your own troops, or models locked in combat).

Once you determine that the hole of the Blast marker is within the weapons range, the marker will hit somewhere, even if it scatters so far that it doesn't hit any models in the target unit. The Blast marker still affects models under the marker when scatter is accounted for.

 

In the same vein, the Flamer Template marker is placed with the narrow end touching the firing model. The is no hole to determine if the marker has been placed in range as the valid range is "narrow end touching the firing model". The broad end is then to be placed touching as many models in the target unit as possible, but if that maximum number is zero (0) there is no provision to "take back" the shot. It doesn't affect any models in the target unit, but the marker still affects any model touched. Just as a scattered Blast marker would do.

 

I believe that's what Squirrelloid was refering to.

[Squirrelloid]

First of all, lets not make up rules to suit our fancy.

 

-Placing the template is not checking for range. It happens in lieu of rolling to hit, which means as soon as you place the template you're already past the checking for range step.

-Placing the template cannot be checking for range because that's not how the rules tell us to check for range. The rules specifically state you 'measure from each firer to the nearest enemy model' in the target squad.

-Most weapons are given a maximum range of effectiveness. Template weapons are not. The template rules supersede the range rules in all respects. 'Template' is not a range, its a set of rules. If template weapons had a maximum range, it would say 7.5" (which is the length of the template) and you would measure normally. (Edit: Then template would be a weapon special rule like blast. They instead specifically chose to replace the range characteristic).

 

Conclusions:

-There is no way to check range for a template weapon by RAW.

Therefore either its impossible to fire a template weapon, or template weapons do not check for range.

 

-The rules clearly expect that we can fire template weapons

Therefore templates do not check for range is the more reasonable alternative.

 

-Nothing in the template rules requires it to actually touch the target squad.

Zero is a valid number for 'as many models as possible' in the target squad. The template rules simply tell us to place the template and follow 2 specific rules on how it is positioned (maximize target squad models touched, don't touch friendly models). As long as we satisfy those two conditions, the template fires as placed and hits *all* touched models regardless of squad.

 

-Just because Blast weapon rules are specifically written now to handle shots out of range and missing does not mean that it allows us to assume anything about how template weapons work.

The blast weapon analogy is flawed - blast weapons have an actual range that can be measured. Thus no parallels can be drawn because the situation is entirely different. Blast is a weapon effect special rule, not a range special rule.

(I might further point out that the template rules text is basically unchanged since *3rd* edition if not earlier. At that time, large blast weapons declared distance and direction before measuring and did not declare targets, and were always placed where specified (plus scatter). That large blast weapons can miss now is new in 5th edition. ie, when template rules were last written not all weapons would miss if 'the target was out of range' - and as they have not been changed in the intervening time there's no reason to assume that they do unless the rules say they do).

[SeattleDV8]

-Most weapons are given a maximum range of effectiveness. Template weapons are not. The template rules supersede the range rules in all respects. 'Template' is not a range, its a set of rules. If template weapons had a maximum range, it would say 7.5" (which is the length of the template) and you would measure normally. (Edit: Then template would be a weapon special rule like blast. They instead specifically chose to replace the range characteristic).

 

BRB pg. 29

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

So by the rules the template is the range.

By placing the template you have already 'checked the range'

Nothing in the template rules allow you to skip 'check range' (unlike step 3 'roll to hit').

 

Therefore "If a target is beyond this maximum range , the shot misses automatically."

[dswanick]

-Most weapons are given a maximum range of effectiveness. Template weapons are not. The template rules supersede the range rules in all respects. 'Template' is not a range, its a set of rules. If template weapons had a maximum range, it would say 7.5" (which is the length of the template) and you would measure normally. (Edit: Then template would be a weapon special rule like blast. They instead specifically chose to replace the range characteristic).

 

BRB pg. 29

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

So by the rules the template is the range.

True they are "indicated" that they follow Template rules by having the word "template" were the range would normally be given. That's a far cry from saying the the range is "Template".

By placing the template you have already 'checked the range'

Nothing in the template rules allow you to skip 'check range' (unlike step 3 'roll to hit').

 

Therefore "If a target is beyond this maximum range , the shot misses automatically."

But were's the part that says that as the marker has been placed (by your "checking the range/placing the marker" logic) that the marker is picked up and the shot has no effect on models touched? That part is in the Blast rules when you find the marker out of range but it is absent from the Template rules.

[Squirrelloid]

-Most weapons are given a maximum range of effectiveness. Template weapons are not. The template rules supersede the range rules in all respects. 'Template' is not a range, its a set of rules. If template weapons had a maximum range, it would say 7.5" (which is the length of the template) and you would measure normally. (Edit: Then template would be a weapon special rule like blast. They instead specifically chose to replace the range characteristic).

 

BRB pg. 29

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

So by the rules the template is the range.

By placing the template you have already 'checked the range'

Nothing in the template rules allow you to skip 'check range' (unlike step 3 'roll to hit').

 

Therefore "If a target is beyond this maximum range , the shot misses automatically."

 

Would you please refer to actual rules?

 

The template is clearly not the range because of page vi under "Tape Measure": "A tape measure or some other measuring device marked in inches is required to measure movement distances and the ranges of weapons." (Emphasis added).

 

(1) All distances in the game are given in inches because the only proper measuring device is marked in inches. Anything not given in inches (eg, "Template") is not a range because it cannot be measured by a game-legal measuring device.

(2) A template is not marked in inches, and therefore is not a measuring device and *cannot be used to measure range*.

(3) You are "required" to use a "measuring device marked in inches" to "measure ... the ranges of weapons". That's really unambiguous.

 

Thus, you cannot check range by using the template according to the rules, as it does not qualify as a game legal measuring device. Nor is 'template' a valid range.

 

The template rules necessarily tell you to skip check range, because they give you no measurable range to check. 'Template' is not a range, its a rules set that replaces the range rules. ie, when you go to use a template weapon, you get to the check range step, see template, and refer to the templat rules description and do what it tells you rather than checking range. As the template rules do not tell you to check range, you don't.

 

Further, the game provides no alternative to measuring distance. All distances are measured in inches. Period. Anything not given in inches cannot be a 'distance' according to the game terminology and cannot be measured by the procedures laid out in the rulebook.

[PyronusSouria]

Where's that bit about tape measures? I can't find it in my rulebook.

 

Also, I can't find the rule that says I have to read the top of my dice.

[Squirrelloid]

Its on page vi under the bold heading "Tape Measure", exactly as cited. The page is helpfully titled 'What You Need'.

[Isiah]

Also, I can't find the rule that says I have to read the top of my dice.

 

Don't try that argument here. It's been a standard game play methodology for eons of human history - we don't have to be told.

 

Cheers

I

[Morollan]

Its on page vi under the bold heading "Tape Measure", exactly as cited. The page is helpfully titled 'What You Need'.

 

Remind me, what page do The Rules start on?