Templates and LoS

[Isiah]

What's your point dswanick?? What are you trying to prove here exactly??

[SeattleDV8]

Indeed, what are you trying to prove?

A template weapon uses the template as it's range.

That means it reaches 8 1/4' from the base of the firing model (again helhound etc. excepted)

At roughly 7" it is 2 3/8" wide tapering back to about 1/2" at the narrow end, this template has a teardrop shape with would be very very hard to explain, therefore we use the template supplied by GW.

We also use the rules from GW as I quoted before BRB pg. 29

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

This clearly shows that the 'template' replaces the number as the range.

 

Yes , we end up with some silly results ( automatic misses) but we avoid the even wierder results , allowing a unit to fire at a vehicle 30" away and hitting an infantry unit behind the firing unit with a flamer.

Template weapons do allow a unit to hit more than one unit , but you still have to hit and maximize the hits on the targeted unit.

That said you still have to hit the targeted unit to gain the extra hits on another unit.

 

A flamer is not the same as a unit of Long Fangs or equiped with a Tau target lock allowing the targeting of a seperate unit.

[dswanick]

What's your point dswanick?? What are you trying to prove here exactly??

I think what I'm proving here is that Squirrelloid is correct - there are holes in the RAW for Template weapons. That the +Official Rules+ for Templates are lacking some specific pieces of information.

Indeed, what are you trying to prove?

A template weapon uses the template as it's range.

That means it reaches 8 1/4' from the base of the firing model (again helhound etc. excepted)

At roughly 7" it is 2 3/8" wide tapering back to about 1/2" at the narrow end, this template has a teardrop shape with would be very very hard to explain, therefore we use the template supplied by GW.

We also use the rules from GW as I quoted before BRB pg. 29

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

This clearly shows that the 'template' replaces the number as the range.

 

Yes , we end up with some silly results ( automatic misses) but we avoid the even wierder results , allowing a unit to fire at a vehicle 30" away and hitting an infantry unit behind the firing unit with a flamer.

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

Yeah, word. Not number. You can't measure "Template" on a ruler, so to understand how that word alters the general shooting rules we go to the section were the Template rules are found. But those rules never say "The range of a Template weapon is 7.5""(or whatever the length of the Marker is). Nor does it say "When determining range, use the Template marker to determine if the shot hits a model in the target unit".

This clearly shows that the word 'Template' replaces the number as the range.

See, this is your false statement. the word "Template" tells you to use the rules for Templates instead of Measuring a range. But "Template" is neither less than, equal to, or greater than any numerical range measurement. A Template weapon has no Maximum Range.

MAXIMUM RANGE

Ranges are all given in inches. If the weapon's range is given as 'Template' then the weapon fires using the teardrop-sha ped Flamer template (the exact method is explained later).

[Isiah]

I still don't get you dswanick. The template represents the effective extent of the weapon's (flamer etc) effect.

[dswanick]

I still don't get you dswanick. The template represents the effective extent of the weapon's (flamer etc) effect.

Correct. So what happens to the Template now that you've found that it missed the models in the target unit by placing the template? - Please cite RAW, not RAI, noone is debating the RAI here.

I'll give you a hint - it doesn't say "pick the Marker back up and pretent it was never placed". It simply says "simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models....Any models fully or partially until the template are hit.".

[Gentlemanloser]

And if you can't reach 'the target unit' you're not allowed to place the template anywhere you like to hit *other* units.

 

You must try to shoot at the same target the rest of your unit is.

 

Now, a better example to use would be two squads in front of you, one in front of the other (to give the squad behind a cover save). You shoot at the rear Squad, but find they are just out of range of your Flamers. Your Flamers however cover some of the front Squad.

 

Are you able to do damage?

 

It's a separate unit to the one you're targeting, and you're out of range with the flamer.

 

Where does the RAW allow you to shoot at different targets if you've not got rules (Long Fangs/PotMS) to allow it?

 

As for Range, we could go back to debating that all template weapons actually have a numerical 'range' of 0" (must be placed touching the base of the firing mini), unless you're one of the special ones (like a Heavy Incinerator with a 'range' of 12"). If you really require a numerical range.

 

Flamers have a range of 0", and to hit must cover the target unit with some portion of their tear-drop template. If no part of the target unit is under the tear drop, they automatically miss.

[Squirrelloid]

dswanick has nailed it.

 

To anyone who wants 'template' to be a range, you have to deal with the language GW uses, and all of that language hedges the word template as if it wasn't a range itself. "the word 'template'" (p29) and "given as 'template'" (p27) when if 'template' was a legitimate range they wouldn't need to hedge.

 

And to make it abundantly clear, the rules for range tell you that the "exact method" for firing a template weapon are explained later (on page 29 to be precise). Page 29's rules are the exact method for firing a template. No more rules are needed. GW believes those are the full and complete rules description for firing a template weapon, as claimed from a section about weapon ranges. It never mentions checking for range, yet you're clearly directed to these rules from a section on range, you'd think they'd cover it if you were supposed to do it.

 

And if you can't reach 'the target unit' you're not allowed to place the template anywhere you like to hit *other* units.

 

You're required to place the template according to the rules on page 29 - to touch the most models in the target unit. If that maximum is zero, you can face the template anyway you like as long as you don't touch a friendly model. Because no matter which way you face it you have still touched zero models. So yes, when the maximum is zero, all directions are equivalent according to the template placing rules and you may choose any such orientation that touches 0 models in the target squad.

 

That's exactly what the rules actually tell you to do. The rules never tell you to pick the template back up or that touched models are not hit. Instead it tells you *all touched models are hit* (regardless of squad!)

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless noted, Templates have a range of 0". As they must be placed in base contact with the firer.

 

Any better?

[Squirrelloid]

Unless noted, Templates have a range of 0". As they must be placed in base contact with the firer.

 

Any better?

 

So templates are always out of range and may never fire? (Edit: or are they always in range because they only measure range to the firer?)

 

This is still making up rules. Templates never say they have a range of 0" or any other range. They have the "word 'template'" to "indicate" its a template weapon. Thus, Templates don't have a range of 0", they have *no range characteristic*. Their "range" is replaced by special rules which detail the "exact method" (p27) used to fire them, and thus following the rules for firing templates on page 29 is all you need to do to legally fire them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Most Template have to be placed in base contact with the firer (zero distance), some special Templates can be placed a set distance away, like the Heavy Incinerators 12".

 

The only targets hit are those under the tear drop. Everything else is 'out of range'.

 

Yes, I agree, their range is replaced by the Template rule and the shape of the Template supplied by GW.

 

Anything not under the Template is 'out of range' and you automatically miss.

 

As part of the standard rules for shooting, you must target the same unit as the rest of your Squad, and you cannot (unless you have a rule to permit it) target a different unit.

 

If you cannot get your template to cover any mini's in the target unit, they are 'out of range' and the Template weapon is 'out of range'.

 

So my challenge is this :

Give me a RAW which

1> Tells us the maximum range of the Flamer's Template is 7.5" so we can declare if the "range" of the Template is <x" measured above.

2> Affords us the opportunity to place the Template during Step #2 check range. Where we can determine if the shot "automatically misses".

3> Allows us to remove the Template after finding no models in the target unit touched by the legally placed Template and "take away" the firing of the weapon.

If you can give me RAW which does any of those three things, I will concede the point - otherwise it stands that GW has written a bad rule (shocker, huh?) which can be manipulated to allow any unit armed with Template weapons to "split fire" with it. Because if we can't determine the the Flamer is or is not "in range" and we can't place the Template until the weapon has "fired" and any models touched by the Template are affected with no recourse to pick the Template back up and "undo" the shot" we are left with a process which results in this situation.

 

I'll give it a crack, but don't have the rulebook to hand, so won't be able to cite pages etc. :D

 

1: There isn't any. The maximum range of a Template weapon is the Template supplied by GW itself. But this isn't needed.

 

2: You don't need to. When you place the Template in the next step (to hit), and you find there are none of the target unit under it, you automatically miss with your template weapon. You don't need to do this in the preceding phase.

 

3: You can leave it on the board if you wish. You just don't hit anything. Unless you have a rule that allows you to target a separate unit to your target unit.

[Squirrelloid]

Most Template have to be placed in base contact with the firer (zero distance), some special Templates can be placed a set distance away, like the Heavy Incinerators 12".

 

The only targets hit are those under the tear drop. Everything else is 'out of range'.

 

Yes, I agree, their range is replaced by the Template rule and the shape of the Template supplied by GW.

 

Anything not under the Template is 'out of range' and you automatically miss.

 

As part of the standard rules for shooting, you must target the same unit as the rest of your Squad, and you cannot (unless you have a rule to permit it) target a different unit.

 

If you cannot get your template to cover any mini's in the target unit, they are 'out of range' and the Template weapon is 'out of range'.

 

Bolded bits are made up by you and not from the rulebook. Unless you'd like to provide a quote to that effect.

 

We agree they have no range, and that the template rules replace range. The template rules *in whole* are on page 29 under Template.

 

Yes, he targets the same unit as the rest of teh squad. He checks LoS. Then we get to range, see template, and are explicitly told (on p27) to refer to the template rules for the "exact method" of firing them.

 

We flip to the template rules, and it tells us to place the template, maximize models in the target squad hit (0 is a mathematically valid maximum and not forbidden by the rules), and not touch friendly models. Once the template position is fixed in a location that follows both of these conditions, all touched models regardless of squad are immediately hit. It never tells us to pick the template up - it specifically tells us any touched model is now hit regardless of squad. So if we're following the rules, we never remove the template without hittting touched models. *NEVER*. Its not permitted in the rules.

 

3: You can leave it on the board if you wish. You just don't hit anything. Unless you have a rule that allows you to target a separate unit to your target unit.

 

No, the rules specifically say you hit all touched models. Bolded bit is again made up by you.

 

You are not targetting a separate unit - you are still targetting the same unit as your squad. All the target for a template weapon requires is that the template be oriented to touch the maximum number of models in the target squad, which is zero. You are never required to actually touch at least one. Ie, despite not hitting any of them, they were still your target squad. As far as *targetting* goes, you have not split fire. And templates are explicitly allowed to *hit* models in other squads.

[Gentlemanloser]

If there are no minis hit from the target unit under the template, hitting any other unit means he's 'targeted' another unit.

 

Unless you have a rule to allow this, you cannot do this.

 

/shrug

 

If you hit at least a single mini from the unit your squad has targeted, then anything else under the template is collateral damage.

 

Doesn't make sense, but hey, it's GW.

 

And no, I've not made stuff up. Anything not under the tear drop is out of range of the weapon. If you don't like calling it our of range, sure, call it something else, for all the difference it will make. ;)

 

Edit: Remove it? Really. We're never told to pick up our dice after throwing them either. There's nothing in the Template rules that suggest it leaves a persistent 'area of effect' that lasts (unlike something like a Vortex Grenade) from round to round.

 

The Template is just a measure of the weapons 'range' (yes using that on purpose) of effect. Nothing more.

[Squirrelloid]

If there are no minis hit from the target unit under the template, hitting any other unit means he's 'targeted' another unit.

 

Unless you have a rule to allow this, you cannot do this.

 

Bolded bit once against made up by you.

 

The targetted unit has a very specific meaning for template weapons as covered under the template rules (p29):

 

"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."

 

If the maximum number of models in the target unit is 0, and you angle the template so that it happens to cover another unit, this other unit is not your target. You are under no obligation to maximize coverage of that unit with the template. Your target remains teh target the squad fired at, by RAW, and spelled out clearly in black and white on page 29.

 

Edit: Remove it? Really. We're never told to pick up our dice after throwing them either. There's nothing in the Template rules that suggest it leaves a persistent 'area of effect' that lasts (unlike something like a Vortex Grenade) from round to round.

 

You remove it after you're done firing. However, you will note that if a blast template is out of range (as per page 30), you are specifically instructed to remove the template and not roll to hit. The Template rules have no such instructions. Once you place the template you follow all of the template rules as instructed until they are fully resolved. Which involves hitting all touched models even if 0 of them are from the target squad, rolling to wound as normal (You roll to wound against all hit models), your opponent taking saves, and so on.

[Gentlemanloser]

Show me the raw that allows you to hit another target apart form the target unit the rest of your squad is shooting at.

 

Oh and the Blast weapon rules say nothing about picking that 'template' up after use as well...

[Squirrelloid]

Show me the raw that allows you to hit another target apart form the target unit the rest of your squad is shooting at.

 

Oh and the Blast weapon rules say nothing about picking that 'template' up after use as well...

 

Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Quote page 30, Blast weapons: "If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed" (similar text is *noteworthily missing* from Template rules)

[Isiah]

Template rules are extremely simple. What are you all wasting so much hot air over?

 

Hmmm seems some of you are getting confused by flamer template and blast weapon templates? They do operate differently.

[Gentlemanloser]

Quote page 30, Blast weapons: "If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed" (similar text is *noteworthily missing* from Template rules)

 

And if the blast is in range and scatters so that it doesn't cover any units?

 

Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Would you be so kind as to quote the restriction to only shooting at a single target as well?

 

Edit;

 

Because we need to make sure that line above allows you to do things like;

 

allowing a unit to fire at a vehicle 30" away and hitting an infantry unit behind the firing unit with a flamer

 

Which can only be described as shooting at two different targets.

[Squirrelloid]

Quote page 30, Blast weapons: "If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed" (similar text is *noteworthily missing* from Template rules)

 

And if the blast is in range and scatters so that it doesn't cover any units?

 

Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Would you be so kind as to quote the restriction to only shooting at a single target as well?

 

You only have a single target, you're just hitting models in another unit. That unit is *not your target* in any game sense.

 

"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."

 

Your target carries with it obligations to maximize coverage. ANY OTHER UNIT DOES NOT, because it is not your TARGET, which is a specific game term denoting the unit you've designated as being your target. Hitting units outside your target does not change who your target is.

 

Which can only be described as shooting at two different targets.

 

Just no, in no game sense is this true. In colloquial language it might be true, but that carries no game weight and the game connotations of the word target do not apply to that sense. The second (or more) unit(s) is *not your target* in any game relevant sense.

[Gentlemanloser]

Right.

 

Well, I've got nothing more to add to this, I thoroughly disagree on the whole targeting a second (and distinctly separate) unit, but this is going to go nowhere.

 

(For example, my Missile Launchers target a squad 48" away form me, but my Combi Melta shoots at a tank just 6" away form me, and that's ok, as it's not a second target, I'm just hitting a tank from another unit.)

[Squirrelloid]

Right.

 

Well, I've got nothing more to add to this, I thoroughly disagree on the whole targeting a second (and distinctly separate) unit, but this is going to go nowhere.

 

(For example, my Missile Launchers target a squad 48" away form me, but my Combi Melta shoots at a tank just 6" away form me, and that's ok, as it's not a second target, I'm just hitting a tank from another unit.)

 

All non-template weapons only have rules to roll to hit the unit they have declared as their target. Templates have specific rules which except them from that and tell you what conditions you have to meet to place the template. If you meet all the listed requirements, the template fires as placed and you roll to wound normally.

 

So your example is clearly in rules error because no rules permit you to do that. The template rules specifically and explicitly permit exactly what i've argued.

 

You're welcome to be unhappy about it, but being unhappy about how the rules are written is not a valid reason to *dispute* them. Rules work as they are written. Period. Without adding anything beyond what is in the text. The "exact method" - ie everything you need to do know - for firing a template is given on page 29, and it is quite specific on how you go about doing that. What people seem to have a problem with is what happens when the maximum models touched in the target unit is zero. The template rules are still perfectly clear on what you're allowed to do. Not liking it doesn't make it not true.

[Isiah]

You only have a single target, you're just hitting models in another unit. That unit is *not your target* in any game sense.

 

This. But only with Blast weapons. Flamer template works differently as you can only hit your designated target unit. No spillovers allowed.

[Gentlemanloser]

Templates do not have rules exempting from having to hit the same unit the rest of your squad is targeting. That's something you're making up.

 

They may hit other targets *in addition* to. But must still hit the same target the rest of the Squad is.

 

Or we get situations like;

 

My Missile Launchers target a Tank 48" away form me, but my Combi Flamer shoots at the Scouts just 6" away from me and behind me, and that's ok, as it's not a second target, I'm just hitting some minis from another unit, while utterly missing/being out of range/not shooting at the same target as the rest of my squad.

 

Flamer template works differently as you can only hit your designated target unit. No spillovers allowed.

 

You can spillover with Flamer weapons.

 

But you need to actually hit the target unit as well.

[Squirrelloid]

You only have a single target, you're just hitting models in another unit. That unit is *not your target* in any game sense.

 

This. But only with Blast weapons. Flamer template works differently as you can only hit your designated target unit. No spillovers allowed.

 

Uh, what? Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Spillovers definitely allowed.

[Isiah]

Templates do not have rules exempting from having to hit the same unit the rest of your squad is targeting. That's something you're making up.

 

They may hit other targets *in addition* to. But must still hit the same target the rest of the Squad is.

 

Well they all declare they are shooting at the same unit yes but only blast weapons that scatter may actually hit something else that was not not originally targeted.

[Isiah]

Uh, what? Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Only of the target unit.