Templates and LoS

[Squirrelloid]

Templates do not have rules exempting from having to hit the same unit the rest of your squad is targeting. That's something you're making up.

 

They may hit other targets *in addition* to. But must still hit the same target the rest of the Squad is.

 

Or we get situations like;

 

My Missile Launchers target a Tank 48" away form me, but my Combi Flamer shoots at the Scouts just 6" away from me and behind me, and that's ok, as it's not a second target, I'm just hitting some minis from another unit, while utterly missing/being out of range/not shooting at the same target as the rest of my squad.

 

Please READ what is written instead of continuing to argue obviously wrong things.

 

(1) Your example is obviously targetting two units if he's firing the bolter part of the combi-bolter. He'd measure range to the tank, find himself out of range, and automatically miss.

 

(2) Templates, however, have special rules. They have no range. The template range rules specifically tell you to go to page 29 to fire them. The rules for doing so start as follows: "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of template covers as many models as possible in the target unit." First, you'll notice that despite the range rules *specifically directing us here*, templates give no rules for checking range. You immediately proceed to placing the template and hitting models, as directed by the rules. Second, zero is a mathematically valid maximum. If he fires the flamer, he'll find he can't touch the tank, and thus can position it in any direction that doesn't touch a friendly model, and all touched models are then hit - no exceptions. That's what the rules read. Exactly. Pretending otherwise is necessarily making things up.

 

Note that the flamer has still 'targetted' the tank, he just finds the maximum number of models he can touch is zero. The rules cover this perfectly well - you just don't like the result they give. That doesn't make it not true (the flamer may in fact touch models in the scout squad in your example). Those models are hit *in addition to* zero models from the target squad.

 

None of this exempts the flamer from targetting the tank. He definitely targets the tank. He touches 0 models from the tank's unit - the maximum he can touch. The RAW of him targetting the tank still lets him touch scouts with the flamer.

[Squirrelloid]

Triple post!

[Squirrelloid]

Uh, what? Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Only of the target unit.

 

No.

 

The rules do not say that. They say any model. Period.

[Quixus]

Exactly, the rules do not specify if zero is a valid maximum for the number of touched models in the targeted unit in game terms. Mathematically it obviously is, but using the zero in this case makes the RAW very different from the assumed RAI.

[Gentlemanloser]

Are the Scouts a separate and different unit to the Tank? Yes?

 

Can any non template weapon hit a separate and second unit while not hitting the unit that the rest of the Squad target and shoot? No? (Bar Blasts ofc...)

 

What allows Template weapons to bypass this shooting restriction?

 

"Hitting any minis under the template" does not give Template weapons the ability to target and hit different units to the one the rest of the target is attacking.

 

And that is exactly what is happening here. No obfuscation about them still targeting the first unit while hitting another. Which is frankly utter bunk. (I'm still taregetting that Baneblade 72" away in front of me, but I just happen to be hitting the unit of pathfinder 3" and 180 degrees behind me instead...)

 

If you can't put any of the minis from the unit you're targeting under your template. Tough. You're out of range/effect/whatever you want to call it. And your Template does nothing.

[Isiah]

Uh, what? Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Only of the target unit.

 

No.

 

The rules do not say that. They say any model. Period.

 

Nope. Templates are subject to the same firing rules as any other weapon. First you must declare the unit you wish to target. Then place the template so that it

 

"[...] covers as many models as possible in the target unit [...]"

 

and that unit is the one you stated you wanted to fire against.

[Squirrelloid]

Are the Scouts a separate and different unit to the Tank? Yes?

 

Can any non template weapon hit a separate and second unit while not hitting the unit that the rest of the Squad target and shoot? No?

 

What allows Template weapons to bypass this shooting restriction?

 

The template rules tell you how to place the template. They work differently from every other weapon. So long as you follow those rules, teh template fires as placed.

 

And template weapons obviously can hit units beside the target unit. Any model under the template is hit. If you could touch one target model and happened to hit 5 other models, all 6 would still be hit, so hitting models outside the target unit is obviously permitted. Nothing about that changes when teh maximum touched in the target unit is zero.

 

"Hitting any minis under the template" does not give Template weapons the ability to target and hit different units to the one the rest of the target is attacking.

 

Not target, just hit. An ability he had anyway. Being able to touch no models in the target unit just frees up his firing arc because all firing arcs become equivalent.

 

And that is exactly what is happening here. No obfuscation about them still targeting the first unit while hitting another. Which is frankly utter bunk.

 

Which is permitted anyway if you can touch one model and happen to touch other enemy models at the same time. Not utter bunk, exactly what's intended by the rules.

 

If you can't put any of the minis from the unit you're targeting under your template. Tough. You're out of range/effect/whatever you want to call it. And your Template does nothing.

 

You have no RAW quotes to support you. I've cited 80% of the rules on templates, all of which support my interpretation.

[Gentlemanloser]

Quote the RAW that allows templates to hit separate units to the one being targeted by the rest of the Squad.

 

And the "Any minis under the template" isn't enough to justify it.

[Isiah]

Quote the RAW that allows templates to hit separate units to the one being targeted by the rest of the Squad.

 

And the "Any minis under the template" isn't enough to justify it.

 

Quite.

[Squirrelloid]

Uh, what? Quote page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." (emphasis added)

 

Only of the target unit.

 

No.

 

The rules do not say that. They say any model. Period.

 

Nope. Templates are subject to the same firing rules as any other weapon. First you must declare the unit you wish to target. Then place the template so that it

 

"[...] covers as many models as possible in the target unit [...]"

 

and that unit is the one you stated you wanted to fire against.

 

The bolded is clearly wrong. They have special rules for firing that supersede the other rules. For example, templates don't roll to hit.

 

The rest of what you say is absolutely correct (except for the "nope").

 

We declare a target. We place the template to touch as many possible models in that target unit (and not touching any friendly models). After successfully doing this, *ALL TOUCHED MODELS ARE HIT* regardless of unit they belong to.

 

If the maximum possible is a positive integer, the possible arcs of the template are restricted so you touch that maximum. But if you hit another enemy unit at the same time they are also hit.

 

The maximum could well be zero. The rules do not raise this as a separate case, so you continue following the rules for firing template weapons as usual. Any models touched are still hit regardless of squad affiliation. Any other interpretation does not follow the RAW.

[Gentlemanloser]

The maximum could well be zero. The rules do not raise this as a separate case, so you continue following the rules for firing template weapons as usual. Any models touched are still hit regardless of squad affiliation.

 

And this interpretation contradicts the limitations of hitting the same squad as the rest of the unit.

 

Any other interpretation does not follow the RAW.

 

It does.

 

You hit zero targets form the unit your squad is shooting at, and you're not allowed to hit a separate squad. All satisfy RAW.

[Squirrelloid]

Quote the RAW that allows templates to hit separate units to the one being targeted by the rest of the Squad.

 

And the "Any minis under the template" isn't enough to justify it.

 

Hypothetical situation. A rhino has disembarked a squad out the rear which is in front of your squad.

 

You move your squad up and nominate the rhino as your target. Your flamer barely touches the rhino, but also touches space marines in front of the rhino.

 

Are the touched space marines hit? 'All touched models are hit'. Yes, they are, despite being a separate squad.

 

Now, what if the rhino is out of range of your flamer. To the rules for templates, this makes NO DIFFERENCE in whether space marines from the squad can be touched and hit by it.

[Squirrelloid]

The maximum could well be zero. The rules do not raise this as a separate case, so you continue following the rules for firing template weapons as usual. Any models touched are still hit regardless of squad affiliation.

 

And this interpretation contradicts the limitations of hitting the same squad as the rest of the unit.

 

There is no such rule. A unit can only *target* one enemy unit, bar special rules. The template rules do not involve targetting a second unit at all.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hypothetical situation. A rhino has disembarked a squad out the rear which is in front of your squad.

 

You move your squad up and nominate the rhino as your target. Your flamer barely touches the rhino, but also touches space marines in front of the rhino.

 

Apart from that being, cheesy (or whatever you want to call it, I know no bearing here in the OR) implementation of the Template rules. Well unless you rule that maximising the target unit means not only maximising the number of targets hit, but for large single mini unit maximising the amount of the mini under the template. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

I disagree with Isiah, and agree that the RAW of templates allow additional units hit.

 

Are the touched space marines hit? 'All touched models are hit'. Yes, they are, despite being a separate squad.

 

Yes they are.

 

Now, what if the rhino is out of range of your flamer. To the rules for templates, this makes NO DIFFERENCE in whether space marines from the squad can be touched and hit by it.

 

It does.

 

You cannot hit the nominated target unit. Your flamer is 'out of range' to it. If you were to hit any other unit, you're hitting a separate unit to your nominated one, which isn't allowed.

 

Collateral/additional hits are allowed. Targeting new units isn't.

 

There is no such rule. A unit can only *target* one enemy unit, bar special rules. The template rules do not involve targetting a second unit at all.

 

Unless you're a scattering Blast weapon, there's no way to hit a unit (bar collateral extra hits) without targeting it.

[Squirrelloid]

Now, what if the rhino is out of range of your flamer. To the rules for templates, this makes NO DIFFERENCE in whether space marines from the squad can be touched and hit by it.

 

It does.

 

You cannot hit the nominated target unit. Your flamer is 'out of range' to it. If you were to hit any other unit, you're hitting a separate unit to your nominated one, which isn't allowed.

 

Collateral/additional hits are allowed. Targeting new units isn't.

 

(1) No new unit was targetted.

 

(2) Once you've placed the template you are past checking for range. The rules never tell you 'if you can touch zero, remove the template and no models are hit'. Once you put the template down you choose a permitted orientation and "all touched models are hit", no exceptions.

 

You are strictly wrong as a matter of RAW here.

 

There is no such rule. A unit can only *target* one enemy unit, bar special rules. The template rules do not involve targetting a second unit at all.

 

Unless you're a scattering Blast weapon, there's no way to hit a unit (bar collateral extra hits) without targeting it.

 

The template weapons do not distinguish collateral hits. 'All touched models are hit'. Period. The word collateral appears nowhere in the rules.

 

The template weapons let you hit 'any touched model', no limitations on unit membership given.

[Isiah]

(2) Once you've placed the template you are past checking for range. The rules never tell you 'if you can touch zero, remove the template and no models are hit'. Once you put the template down you choose a permitted orientation and "all touched models are hit", no exceptions.

 

If your template touches zero models in your previously allocated target unit then how do you wound them exactly??

 

The template weapons let you hit 'any touched model', no limitations on unit membership given.

 

That's not true. It's given in the template rules as the "target unit". That is: the unit that you declared you wanted to shoot against as per the shooting rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, your whole argument revolves around the ability to hit a separate unit without needing to 'target' it, and by doing so you bypass the single unit shooting restriction. I disagree, but won't convince you, so unless anything new is added, I'm out of this.

[Squirrelloid]

Well, your whole argument revolves around the ability to hit a separate unit without needing to 'target' it, and by doing so you bypass the single unit shooting restriction. I disagree, but won't convince you, so unless anything new is added, I'm out of this.

 

There is no such rule. The only rule restricts you to targetting one unit.

 

Look, either cite the rulebook or conceed. Making stuff up helps no one.

 

(I will henceforth ignore posts by Isaiah. Its obvious to anyone that he's wrong and there's no point trying to convince him otherwise).

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, I've not got the rulebook here, but luckily I've been able to find myself a copy. So here's some rules Quotes.

 

Page 16;

 

Check Line of Sight & Pick a Target

A firing unit can select a single enemy unit <snip> and may not split it's fire among different target

 

Page 17;

 

Check Range

All Weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot.

 

Check Range

Any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically - his shots simply do not reach

 

I'll quote the template is range section again;

 

Template

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

 

Page vii

Template and Blast Markers

These are worked out using template or blast markers to work out which models are hit

 

 

1: You don't need to measure range in the 'Check Range' section (2) of the shooting sequence

 

2: When you reach 'roll to hit' (section 3), you place the Template.

 

3: If no minis from the selected single enemy unit are under the Template, there are no minis from this unit hit as there are no minis form this unit in Range of the Template

 

4: If there are no minis from the selected single enemy unit in range of the Template, he automatically misses

 

5: He is unable to hit a different unit as he can only hit the single selected enemy unit. Any other enemy minis under the template, if it hits the single selected enemy unit, can also be wounded.

 

 

Oh, and your Rhino example above was incorrect;

 

Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible

[Squirrelloid]

Well, I've not got the rulebook here, but luckily I've been able to find myself a copy. So here's some rules Quotes.

 

Page 16;

 

Check Line of Sight & Pick a Target

A firing unit can select a single enemy unit <snip> and may not split it's fire among different target

 

Yep, a unit can select a single enemy unit as its target. I totally agree, and have meticulously followed that. The flamer is taking the same unit as a target as all other weapons in the unit, no exceptions.

 

Page 17;

 

Check Range

All Weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot.

 

Combine with page 27: "Ranges are given in inches". "Template" is not in inches and therefore not a range.

 

Check Range

Any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically - his shots simply do not reach

 

Templates have no range and therefor cannot check range. Further, by page 27, the "exact method" for firing a template is given later (on page 29). Exact method means all the rules you need to fire a template are included in the template rules. Note the place this is specified is under the rules for weapon ranges, so it necessarily replaces the rules for range (and checking range).

 

I'll quote the template is range section again;

 

Template

They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number

 

Note "the word 'template'". The range is not template. "The word 'template'" is used to "indicate" that it is a template weapon and follows the rules that are listed thereafter instead of the normal firing rules.

 

Page vii

Template and Blast Markers

These are worked out using template or blast markers to work out which models are hit

 

"Which models are hit", not which models are in range. Which is what I've argued all along. All touched models are hit, period.

 

 

1: You don't need to measure range in the 'Check Range' section (2) of the shooting sequence

 

Agreed.

 

2: When you reach 'roll to hit' (section 3), you place the Template.

 

Agreed.

 

3: If no minis from the selected single enemy unit are under the Template, there are no minis from this unit hit as there are no minis form this unit in Range of the Template

 

Agreed. No models from the target unit are hit because none are touched.

 

4: If there are no minis from the selected single enemy unit in range of the Template, he automatically misses

 

Rules not in evidence. We just agreed templates don't check range. You're already in the phase 'rolling to hit' when you place the template. No method for being missed by a template is given in the template rules if the template touches you. There's no such thing as an automatic miss for templates, and you've provided no rules cites to argue otherwise.

 

5: He is unable to hit a different unit as he can only hit the single selected enemy unit. Any other enemy minis under the template, if it hits the single selected enemy unit, can also be wounded.

 

Not true at all. Conclusion following from wrong premise. You're assuming an automatic miss when there is none specified in the rules. All models touched are hit. Period. No exceptions for 'not being able to touch any models in the target unit'. As the valid range for maximums is not specified, we're forced to use any maximum which is able to be interpreted mathematically and can occur in the game. Zero is a valid maximum. Ie, the definitions in the rules work just fine with a maximum is zero, and if you arbitrarily exclude it (the rules do not tell you to), then its impossible to know what happens when 0 units are touched according to the rules.

 

Oh, and your Rhino example above was incorrect;

 

Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible

 

I placed the squad between the flamer and the rhino and said the flamer 'just reached' for exactly that reason. My example is perfectly correct, just touching the rhino *is* covering as much of the vehicle as possible.

[Gentlemanloser]

Combine with page 27: "Ranges are given in inches". "Template" is not in inches and therefore not a range.

 

The specific Template rule overrides the general Range is in inches rule.

 

Template is the range of the weapon.

 

Templates have no range and therefor cannot check range. Further, by page 27, the "exact method" for firing a template is given later (on page 29). Exact method means all the rules you need to fire a template are included in the template rules. Note the place this is specified is under the rules for weapon ranges, so it necessarily replaces the rules for range (and checking range).

 

Template is the range. Their range is the size of the Template itself.

 

Note "the word 'template'". The range is not template. "The word 'template'" is used to "indicate" that it is a template weapon and follows the rules that are listed thereafter instead of the normal firing rules.

 

No.

 

Template is the Range.

 

As evidences by page vii it's the 'area of effect' of any Template weapon. Any enemy mini in the effect is hit and in range. any enemy mini outside the area of effect (the tear drop shaped template) is out of range.

 

"Which models are hit", not which models are in range. Which is what I've argued all along. All touched models are hit, period.

 

You cannot hit a mini if it's out of range...

 

No method for being missed by a template is given in the template rules if the template touches you.

 

If the template touches you, it auto hits. If it doesn't touch you it misses. If it doesn't touch any mini fromt he target unit, it auto misses everything, from being out of range.

 

There's no such thing as an automatic miss for templates, and you've provided no rules cites to argue otherwise.

 

You only hit what's under the template. If it's not under the template you *can't* hit therefore you auto miss.

 

I placed the squad between the flamer and the rhino and said the flamer 'just reached' for exactly that reason. My example is perfectly correct, just touching the rhino *is* covering as much of the vehicle as possible.

 

My bad, I didn't ge that form the example (I also used a similar example myself earlier).

[Squirrelloid]

Combine with page 27: "Ranges are given in inches". "Template" is not in inches and therefore not a range.

 

The specific Template rule overrides the general Range is in inches rule.

 

Template is the range of the weapon.

 

No.

 

"If the weapon's range is given as Template". Not if the weapon's range is template. If template was a range, the language "given as" would not be needed. Ergo, Template is not the range of the weapon. Its a set of special rules that replace range.

 

If you went into a store, items are given in prices denominated in dollars. If an item had a 'price' sign that read 'negotiable', the price is not literally "negotiable", you can't pay that. Instead, negotiation replaces a listed price. The price is not "negotiable" but it is "given as negotiable". Any appropriate understanding of the English language makes this obvious.

 

Templates have no range and therefor cannot check range. Further, by page 27, the "exact method" for firing a template is given later (on page 29). Exact method means all the rules you need to fire a template are included in the template rules. Note the place this is specified is under the rules for weapon ranges, so it necessarily replaces the rules for range (and checking range).

 

Template is the range. Their range is the size of the Template itself.

 

Never stated anywhere in the rules. Nor do the rules instruct you to check range with the template. Facts not in evidence.

 

Note "the word 'template'". The range is not template. "The word 'template'" is used to "indicate" that it is a template weapon and follows the rules that are listed thereafter instead of the normal firing rules.

 

No.

 

Template is the Range.

 

As evidences by page vii it's the 'area of effect' of any Template weapon. Any enemy mini in the effect is hit and in range. any enemy mini outside the area of effect (the tear drop shaped template) is out of range.

 

Its area of effect, but not its "range". Range is a specific game term with specific meaning, and all ranges are in inches as per page 27. Any enemy model outside the AOE of the template are not hit, but no game-statement is capable about the game-term "range".

 

"Which models are hit", not which models are in range. Which is what I've argued all along. All touched models are hit, period.

 

You cannot hit a mini if it's out of range...

 

Templates do not check range, as you yourself agreed and stated earlier. Your point #1 a couple posts ago. Nothing can be out of range if you never check range.

 

Further, the rule that shots auto-misses only applies to step 2 of shooting. You don't place the template until step 3 Rolling to Hit, and thus rules from Step 2 do not and cannot apply. So even if we could say the template has a range (which we can't), it doesn't abide by the rules from Step 2 at all and cannot auto-miss.

 

No method for being missed by a template is given in the template rules if the template touches you.

 

If the template touches you, it auto hits. If it doesn't touch you it misses. If it doesn't touch any mini fromt he target unit, it auto misses everything, from being out of range.

 

The bolded is not in evidence from the rules. Placing the template is in step 3 (see above). Nothing in the template rules *allows* touched models to not be hit or for the template to auto-miss. You have no rules to support this contention.

 

There's no such thing as an automatic miss for templates, and you've provided no rules cites to argue otherwise.

 

You only hit what's under the template. If it's not under the template you *can't* hit therefore you auto miss.

 

You only hit what's under the template, but you hit *everything* under the template. Yes, if its not under the template, its not hit. But nothing stops it from hitting what *is* under the template. NOTHING.

[Gentlemanloser]

This is pointless.

 

The tear drop is the Range of a Template weapon.

 

You disagree. I'll never convince you otherwise.

 

/bowing out

[PyronusSouria]

Squirrelloid, this is the problem I have with your argument.

 

This entire time, every so often you'll tell us that we need to quote the rules, or show you where it says this or where that is written. That's the basis of your entire argument. So here's my questions for you:

 

Where does it say that Template is a special rule set?

 

Where does it say template weapons do not need to check range?

 

Where does it say that a range cannot be measured with a template?

 

Once you answer these, I'll believe that your argument is based around something other than the lack of complete and precise evidence to the contrary. But what Gentleman and I are trying to convey to you is that, while it does not bright-as-day say "Dear Squirrelloid, the template is used to measure the range", it clearly implies a number of times that a template is used to measure range.

 

Your solution is essentially: I am told to check range. I cannot check range as I would with other weapons, therefore I do not have to. This is supported not by any evidence to support it, but rather the lack of any evidence to the contrary.

 

That's not a solution, or even a work-around. You're just skipping what you aren't told word-for-word what to do.

 

Our solution is essentially: I am told to check range. I cannot check range as I would with other weapons, so by comparing this weapon to other weapons, I come to the conclusion that the author's intent was for me to use the template to check the range. This is supported by Template being listed in the location usually reserved for range numbers. This is also supported by the statement "range is given as template", just like my given name is my name, or if I am given an orange, I have an orange. This is also supported by the fact that I am told to check for range, and the author would likely give me an implement with which to check range.

 

Neither of us can prove ourselves completely correct, and I know that. What I'm saying is my argument is actually based on inferences I've drawn from the book, while yours is drawn from the belief that "since I am not told definitively what to do, I can do whatever I want."

 

I'm not saying it says to do this in the rules. I'm saying it's a grey area, and my solution is the solution that is the most sensible and can be given the most support by inference. For someone who prides themselves on playing the RAW, you seem awfully eager to skewer obvious meaning and ignore what is implied in favour of finding a loophole you can tell your friends about.

[SeattleDV8]

Step one. Check LOS and pick target

Any models in the firing unit are allowed to shoot; those models go to:

Step two Check Range

any models out of range 'miss automatically' ;any that are in range go to:

Step three Roll to Hit

Or in a flamers case all models that are under the template are hit; any that hit go to: ,etc.

 

The template in the case we are discussing never get to step three and so the rule you quoted from page 29: "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."

Is never used

You have yet to prove that the Check Range is skipped, only that it has a specific over-ride of the normal measuing rule.

So as long as a single model in the targeted unit is covered then your quoted rule comes into play.

Without that it 'misses automatically'