Templates and LoS

[Quixus]

There's also no RAW to tell you to pick it up after you've successfully wounded a unit hit. But no one leaves it there as a DoT for the rest of the game.

 

And there's no RAW to tell you to pick up your dice after you roll them.

 

This could go on for ever. ;)

Well there aren't, but there needn't be any either. While you are not instructed to pick the template back up after firing you are indeed instructed to place it when you fire again. So unless you have an unlimited supply of templates, you will have to pick it up. Even if you did leave a template there it would not matter for the game as units are only affected by it in the shooting phase it is placed. The same goes for the dice.

 

They're not 'spill over' hits, as you don't hit the original target. You can't 'spill over' form nothing.

That is your assumption. As with Blast Markers that is entirely possible.

 

As it's not a random scatter, you're actively choosing where to lay and target your template. You're actively declaring to hit a unit other than the one the rest of your unit is attacking.

Opinion again. The unit over which the template is placed is not targeted (i.e. declared as target in step 1 of the shooting phase mechanics)

 

The RAW of Templates don't allow you to bypass the 'splitting fire' restriction.

No matter when and how the template is placed there is no splitting of fire. There is no target declaration to another unit and thus no split fire.

 

Again, spill over when you hit the selected unit isn't splitting fire. Hitting a seocnd unit when you don't hit the selected unit *is* splitting fire.

No it isn't, unless you provide proof.

 

Again, without involuntary or random movement/placement (like a scatter), the *only* way to hit a target is to actively choose to target it. That's selecting an enemy unit to attack.

No, in case of the template it isn't. There has been no declaration in Step 1 and so no second unit was targeted. Whether the template is placed over a second unit by voluntary or involuntary action is irrelevant.

 

Splitting fire. You're choosing to target a different unit to the one the rest of the squad has selected.

You may be assigning hits to a different unit, but you are not declaring it a target. That is a big difference.

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, *how* do you hit a unit (ignoring scatter, or any other involuntary attack) without choosing it as a target?

 

Without deciding to attack a unit (of which you are only allowed to choose one), how do you attack a unit?

 

Again, this is ignoring scatter.

[dswanick]

What Quixus said, above.

No. You hit the selected target. Spill over again. Not "I'm spinning 180 degrees and landing my template on another unit, that I'm not actually selecting to hit..."

And did you notice that this was not in any of the cases I put forth? Regardless of the interpretation used - I do not think this is a valid use of the rules. But then, there are several GW rules which can legally be abused to produce unintended results. But your having to reach for an absurd example not even discussed, in order to try and refute my position, tells me how little you want to acknowledge that the basic interpretation is correct. And on that note : arguing this has given me a headache so I'm done trying to enlighten you.

[Gentlemanloser]

It has been specifically mentioned earlier.

 

And there is no difference, Rules wise, to being able to hit a unit in front of you that isn't your target, to one exactly behind you. If that is allowed.

 

Either you're able to;

 

Select a unit 24" in front of you as your target and fire your Bolters at it, while also being able to place your Flamer 180 degrees behind you to flame a unit of scouts (as this somehow doesn't count as splitting fire).

 

Or you're not.

 

Regardless of where you place the flamer.

[Something Wycked]

Wow, you folks have been busy while I was out enjoying myself. :) I have some simple thoughts for consideration.

 

What if using a Template weapon works like this:

 

1. LOS, target picking: this isn't in contention. ;)

 

2. Check range: this is where you place the template to see if it can reach any enemy models in the target unit- generally performed with a slight arc of motion while the base of the template is touching the base of the firing model. :nuke:

 

3. Roll to hit: this is where you decide where the template must be placed to cover as many models in the targeted unit as possible- since now you are actually hitting models, rather than checking to see if you're in range.

 

This rather elegantly (in my not so humble opinion) solves the issue of "skipping to step 3" that Squirrel seems intent on using as the basis for his argument. B) It also solves the issue of targeting a second unit which is clearly disallowed outside of special rules or wargear, as if the target unit is not in range, the shot misses.

[Squirrelloid]

Wow, you folks have been busy while I was out enjoying myself. :lol: I have some simple thoughts for consideration.

 

What if using a Template weapon works like this:

 

1. LOS, target picking: this isn't in contention. ^_^

 

2. Check range: this is where you place the template to see if it can reach any enemy models in the target unit- generally performed with a slight arc of motion while the base of the template is touching the base of the firing model. :)

 

3. Roll to hit: this is where you decide where the template must be placed to cover as many models in the targeted unit as possible- since now you are actually hitting models, rather than checking to see if you're in range.

 

This rather elegantly (in my not so humble opinion) solves the issue of "skipping to step 3" that Squirrel seems intent on using as the basis for his argument. :) It also solves the issue of targeting a second unit which is clearly disallowed outside of special rules or wargear, as if the target unit is not in range, the shot misses.

 

Unfortunately for you, this has absolutely nothing to do with what the RAW tells you to do when firing a template weapon.

 

Seriously, the discussion is not helped by people arguing for an order of operations that isn't based on quotes from the RAW.

 

#2 in particular is entirely without merit. There is no RAW that instructs or allows you to place a template in step 2. Period. Its been 6 pages, no one has produced such a quote.

 

So yes, 'if' placing a template worked like that we'd be fine. But it doesn't. This is +OR+, not "Rules as I'd like them to be".

[dswanick]

Wow, you folks have been busy while I was out enjoying myself. :lol: I have some simple thoughts for consideration.

 

What if using a Template weapon works like this:

 

1. LOS, target picking: this isn't in contention. ^_^

 

2. Check range: this is where you place the template to see if it can reach any enemy models in the target unit- generally performed with a slight arc of motion while the base of the template is touching the base of the firing model. :)

 

3. Roll to hit: this is where you decide where the template must be placed to cover as many models in the targeted unit as possible- since now you are actually hitting models, rather than checking to see if you're in range.

 

This rather elegantly (in my not so humble opinion) solves the issue of "skipping to step 3" that Squirrel seems intent on using as the basis for his argument. :) It also solves the issue of targeting a second unit which is clearly disallowed outside of special rules or wargear, as if the target unit is not in range, the shot misses.

Well, that's the RAI that everyone (myself included) has been comfortable with until now. However, as Squirrelloid points out, it falls down on one basic assumption. That the conclusion that the shot "missed" because it was "out of range" requires that the template be picked up without applying any hits on the models touched. But there is no RAW for removing the Template once placed due to a lack of models from the target unit being under the template. There is, however, RAW stating that when placed, any model touched by the Template is hit(regardless of its unit affiliation). So long as zero models from the target unit is the maximum number of models that can touched by the template then placing the Template with zero models from the target unit under it is a RAW legal placement for the Template. Everything else is assumption and misinterpretation.

 

Your house rule surely works in most circumstances - as it has been used for years in this current edition. But my house rule of "If no models from the target unit can be touched by the Template, it must be placed with the broad end as close as possible to a model from the target unit" also solves the OTT hypothetical situation where someone fires his flamer 180' away from the target unit at another unit. But, the +OR+ is not a place for proposing or discussing house rules.

[PyronusSouria]

I think as one of the people who was majorly involved in this, I'd like to ask everyone to come to this conclusion.

 

The intent of the writers was likely to make the template the full range of the weapon. However, in true rulebook fashion, they did not clearly express that, leaving the rule open to allow a rangeless template weapon which could spill over onto other units. Doing so in a casual game would likely lead to friction with the other player due to a common interpretation of the intent of the rule at first glance, but would not technically be incorrect.

 

Long story short, you can in fact do what Squirrelloid says you can, but you really probably shouldn't unless you're playing with the kind of people who play intense RAW.

 

Good settlement?

[dswanick]

I think as one of the people who was majorly involved in this, I'd like to ask everyone to come to this conclusion.

 

The intent of the writers was likely to make the template the full range of the weapon. However, in true rulebook fashion, they did not clearly express that, leaving the rule open to allow a rangeless template weapon which could spill over onto other units. Doing so in a casual game would likely lead to friction with the other player due to a common interpretation of the intent of the rule at first glance, but would not technically be incorrect.

 

Long story short, you can in fact do what Squirrelloid says you can, but you really probably shouldn't unless you're playing with the kind of people who play intense RAW.

 

Good settlement?

I don't think I can disagree with a single thing you just typed there. :)

[Squirrelloid]

Can we agree on some general principles like:

 

"You are only allowed to do something if the rules permit it"

 

"If the rules permit it, then you are allowed to do it."

 

It has been specifically mentioned earlier.

 

And there is no difference, Rules wise, to being able to hit a unit in front of you that isn't your target, to one exactly behind you. If that is allowed.

 

Either you're able to;

 

Select a unit 24" in front of you as your target and fire your Bolters at it, while also being able to place your Flamer 180 degrees behind you to flame a unit of scouts (as this somehow doesn't count as splitting fire).

 

Or you're not.

 

Regardless of where you place the flamer.

 

The important point here is that the rules let you only target one squad.

 

Target is important for a template weapon. It dictates how you are allowed to place the template. The "exact method" for "firing" it is specified on p29. Touch as many models in the *target* unit as possible. Don't touch friendlies. All touched models are hit (regardless of squad). 3 very basic principles. Do we agree that's what p29 says?

 

Now, we place our template and find that we can touch 0 models in the target squad. We still can't touch friendly models. All touched models are still hit. Being able to touch 0 models does not change the rules on p29 and is not otherwise covered on p29. As far as the rules are concerned, being able to touch at most 0 models is the same as being able to touch at most 1 or more models.

 

So what's a valid orientation of the template if you can touch 0 models in the target unit? *Any* orientation is that abides by the other restriction (no friendlies touched), because all orientations touch 0 models in the target squad. So we choose an orientation because we *have to*. The rules for templates don't permit us to *not* choose an orientation.

 

All touched models are hit. Regardless of squad. The rules have no concept of 'spill-over hits' (this is not a game term and has no meaning under the rules), they don't care if the most models in the target squad you could touch is 0 or 25. Once the template is placed according to the rules then all touched models are hit. Hitting another squad does not make it your target. You were not obligated to touch as many of them as possible, you are not able to assault that unit, indeed if you were going to assault you would have to attempt to assault the declared target which you couldn't touch with the template. They are your target for all purposes. Target is a technical term in the rules, and some colloquial useage of the word has no value in deciding who your target is.

 

(Aside: Firing a weapon comprises Steps 2 and 3 explicitly - you need to declare models who are firing in Step 2 before checking for range. This is where we find the Range rules referencing us to p29. That p29 is the "exact method" for "firing" it means that the rules for templates necessarily override all the standard rules for Steps 2 and 3 from the moment we're referred to it. If template weapons were able to automatically miss, it would have to be specified on p29 because of GW's own words, and they'd have to tell you what causes an automatic miss and to not place the template when that event occurred. No such condition is given, so the template is always successfully placed and all touched models are hit).

[Squirrelloid]

I think as one of the people who was majorly involved in this, I'd like to ask everyone to come to this conclusion.

 

The intent of the writers was likely to make the template the full range of the weapon. However, in true rulebook fashion, they did not clearly express that, leaving the rule open to allow a rangeless template weapon which could spill over onto other units. Doing so in a casual game would likely lead to friction with the other player due to a common interpretation of the intent of the rule at first glance, but would not technically be incorrect.

 

Long story short, you can in fact do what Squirrelloid says you can, but you really probably shouldn't unless you're playing with the kind of people who play intense RAW.

 

Good settlement?

 

I actually disagree.

 

The words "exact method" are what do it for me. They're explicit instructions to follow the rules on p29 and nothing else for firing the weapon. This is a clear expression of intent on GWs part.

 

The hedging on what 'template' actually is in the range column is also convincing. They say 'the range is x"' whenever its a traditional range, but they specifically say "the range is given as 'template'" and "indicated by the having the word 'template' for their range" whenever talking about templates. They could have just said 'the range is template'. They didn't. This is a pretty clear statement of intent that 'template' is not a literal range to be measured.

 

The template rules have been basically untouched for *at least 3 editions*. They have never once been FAQed or Errataed. Never once!, yet rules disputes with far more obvious resolutions under the rules have been errataed and/or FAQed, sometimes repeatedly. And this isn't a case where the RAW is actually unclear, just where its counter-intuitive to most people, ie, it would need errata to change or add text, not just a FAQ.

 

It begins to strain credulity that GW doesn't actually mean exactly what is written under the template rules.

 

(Edit: Yes, even with intent I look to the rules to find clues for what GW means. I am not mr. Alessio, I have no idea what he was thinking, and my only clue to his thinking is what he wrote and what is notably absent from what he wrote.)

 

(Edit2: I should probably note that I'd be willing to play the houseruled version where templates can miss if and only if it is a pickup game and specifically discussed beforehand. I will assume the RAW is in effect if no agreement is made before play, but I'm willing to negotiate when its just a random game).

 

(Edit3: The longstanding lack of change is part of what makes it so convincing. If this were still 3rd edition I'd be more sympathetic to the people who object to the literal RAW here. But GW has had almost *15 years* to supply different wording, covering 2 new editions and countless FAQs and errata releases.)

[Ming]

Dang, you guys have been busy in this thread!

 

To go back to the beginning of the OP - Answer: picture 3. The target unit can be seen; the dread puts the template in place to flame the most target unit models. They don't get a cover save.

 

Can dread pivot? Answer: No. it is immobile. The weapons themselves have a arc of fire to adhere to, however, so make sure you make the most of that in placement before you get immobilized.

 

Middle of this thread: New scenario. Can I shoot at a unit further away than the template with ranged weapons, but use the template to hit an intervening unit not the target unit? Answer: No. Since the template cannot reach the target unit it is not fired. The template has a special notation that it is placed to cover as many of the target unit models as possible. Since it cannot be placed over the target unit (any model) then there is no direction for placing the template. Something to think about, in that since flamer weapons are assault weapons, you should have moved closer....

 

Corollary - if I shoot at a unit within the length of the template and the template overlaps onto the unit behind, do I flame both units? Answer: yes BUT the template is placed to cover as many of the target unit's models as possible, as they are the focus of your fire, not the unit to the back. This means careful placement and thinking is required.

 

Lastly: I'm not allowed to be premeasuring my movement or fire arcs as I advance, but since a template is not a tape measure, can I use it to "gauge" my distance from the enemy units? Answer: If you think this, go play Magic or Pokemon.

[Seahawk]

Lastly: I'm not allowed to be premeasuring my movement or fire arcs

Yes you are allowed to do just that :) I don't have the book on me, but in the Movement Phase, one of the first pages it says you can measure your movement one way and decide to go a different direction instead. I'll put up the quote when I get home or when someone else provides it.

 

As for fire arcs, it's all LOS. Kinda hard to stop someone from getting down and looking, especially when that's encouraged ;)

[Squirrelloid]

Middle of this thread: New scenario. Can I shoot at a unit further away than the template with ranged weapons, but use the template to hit an intervening unit not the target unit? Answer: No. Since the template cannot reach the target unit it is not fired. The template has a special notation that it is placed to cover as many of the target unit models as possible. Since it cannot be placed over the target unit (any model) then there is no direction for placing the template. Something to think about, in that since flamer weapons are assault weapons, you should have moved closer....

 

You're absolutely wrong here, specifically the bolded parts.

 

(1) It absolutely fires. You declare which models are firing (and which weapons they are firing) at the end of Step 1 after checking LoS. Once you've declared a model as firing, it must fire. See p16 under "Which models can fire".

 

(2) There is direction:

We must not touch friendly models (check). Call the number of friendly models touched in a given placement F for simplicities sake.

We must choose an orientation that touches as many models of the target unit as possible. Call 'as many models as possible' M for short. Call the actual number of touched models in a given orientation m.

 

You must choose an orientation such that F=0 and m = M.

 

M = 0 is valid. Its mathematically and procedurally interpretable. The rules for placing the template still hold. Any placement which satisfies F=0 and m=M=0 is an acceptable placement according to the template rules.

 

 

Seahawk:

p11, under Movement Distance: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all."

 

You could probably make a compelling case that you are *only allowed to measure its movement distance*, and no further, since you're only allowed to measure the "unit's move".

[Gentlemanloser]

Lastly: I'm not allowed to be premeasuring my movement or fire arcs as I advance, but since a template is not a tape measure, can I use it to "gauge" my distance from the enemy units? Answer: If you think this, go play Magic or Pokemon.

 

Win! :)

 

So by RAW, if you hold that a Template isn't a measure of Range in any way (not measured in inches, hasn't got inches marked out on it), then we can use this to lay between our squads and enemy squads to guestimate range (which as we know the template to be ~7.5 inches, is a very useful tool) for movements, assaults and shooting.

 

And this is all allowed by RAW, as the Template isn't 'measuring' anything.

 

Or, we could stop being silly and accept that a Template is actually a measure of range in 40k, and the shenanigans above wouldn't be allowed by RAW...

[Squirrelloid]

Lastly: I'm not allowed to be premeasuring my movement or fire arcs as I advance, but since a template is not a tape measure, can I use it to "gauge" my distance from the enemy units? Answer: If you think this, go play Magic or Pokemon.

 

Win! :)

 

So by RAW, if you hold that a Template isn't a measure of Range in any way (not measured in inches, hasn't got inches marked out on it), then we can use this to lay between our squads and enemy squads to guestimate range (which as we know the template to be ~7.5 inches, is a very useful tool) for movements, assaults and shooting.

 

And this is all allowed by RAW, as the Template isn't 'measuring' anything.

 

Or, we could stop being silly and accept that a Template is actually a measure of range in 40k, and the shenanigans above wouldn't be allowed by RAW...

 

No, we aren't allowed to place the template unless specifically instructed to do so. You can't just place the template because you want to.

 

Its only allowed by RAW if you can find rules which say 'you may place the template on the table at any time'.

 

Stop making up rules. If the rulebook doesn't say it, its not part of the rules. End of story. This isn't even the first time i've had to say this, and it should be a fundamental precept of the +OR+ board. Any statement that can't be backed up with one or more quotes from the rulebook has absolutely no basis in rules.

[Something Wycked]

Unfortunately for you, this has absolutely nothing to do with what the RAW tells you to do when firing a template weapon.

Unfortunately for you, this has absolutely everything to do with what the RAW tells you to do when firing a template weapon.

 

What do the shooting phase order of operations tell you to do? 1. Check LOS and pick a target. 2. Check range. 3. Roll to hit. That is the RAW, right?

 

What is the template's range? The template. It says so in the Range column of the weapon. That is the RAW, right?

 

So what do you do when step 2 rolls around when firing the template? Measure with the template- exactly what RAW tells you to do.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, we aren't allowed to place the template unless specifically instructed to do so. You can't just place the template because you want to.

 

You're making that up.

 

Where is the RAW that tells me I can only place a Template on the table when told to?

[dswanick]

(which as we know the template to be ~7.5 inches, is a very useful tool)

And this is how Gl ended up on my ignore list : posting false information as "known" "facts". After a few posts where I went along with the posted opinion of others that the Template marker is ~7.5" and before typing up my 5 Case post earlier this morning - I went down to my basement and actually used a tape measure to measure the length of a flamer Template. 8¼", exactly. I've begun to suspect that those still arguing against Squirrelloid simply aren't bothering to check their facts before posting their opinions and interpretations in this thread. And Ming's trolling post just threw gas on the fire.

 

PyronusSouria posted up with the only solution to this debate - the RAW is sufficiently couched in unclear phrases and assumptions that the best we can do is presume certain intentions on the part of the rule author and agree to disagree on certain interpretations.

 

Unfortunately for you, this has absolutely nothing to do with what the RAW tells you to do when firing a template weapon.

Unfortunately for you, this has absolutely everything to do with what the RAW tells you to do when firing a template weapon.

 

What do the shooting phase order of operations tell you to do? 1. Check LOS and pick a target. 2. Check range. 3. Roll to hit. That is the RAW, right?

 

What is the template's range? The template. It says so in the Range column of the weapon. That is the RAW, right?

 

So what do you do when step 2 rolls around when firing the template? Measure with the template- exactly what RAW tells you to do.

And what do you do when you place the Template (per BRB, Pg.29) and find that no models from the target unit are touched by the Template but that two models from another unit are tocuhed?

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL

 

Ignore me if you want.

 

I was using the earlier posted length. I took it at face value as it really has no impact on the topic.

 

Our 40K boards and equipment (not armies) are kept at a single house. Not mine, as I've not the room for them. I don't have one to hand to measure.

 

I'm glad you did, I know know the proper measurement.

 

But ignore away if that's enough for you to do so.

 

Personally I think it's a trivial item that has no bearing tot he thread, but hey.

[Something Wycked]

And what do you do when you place the Template (per BRB, Pg.29) and find that no models from the target unit are touched by the Template but that two models from another unit are tocuhed?

The range has been checked, the targeted unit has been found to be out of range, and the shot automatically misses, exactly as the RAW says.

 

The models that were under the template cannot be hit because:

 

1. That unit was not the one targeted by the shooting attack.

2. The template attack did not proceed beyond the "check range" step; no models can be hit in step 3, as the attack was stopped during step 2.

[dswanick]

And what do you do when you place the Template (per BRB, Pg.29) and find that no models from the target unit are touched by the Template but that two models from another unit are tocuhed?

The range has been checked, the targeted unit has been found to be out of range, and the shot automatically misses, exactly as the RAW says.

 

The models that were under the template cannot be hit because:

 

1. That unit was not the one targeted by the shooting attack.

2. The template attack did not proceed beyond the "check range" step; no models can be hit in step 3, as the attack was stopped during step 2.

Care to quote an actual rule in the Rulebook or are you on the "I said it, so it's so" band-wagon?

[Squirrelloid]

Unfortunately for you, this has absolutely nothing to do with what the RAW tells you to do when firing a template weapon.

Unfortunately for you, this has absolutely everything to do with what the RAW tells you to do when firing a template weapon.

 

What do the shooting phase order of operations tell you to do? 1. Check LOS and pick a target. 2. Check range. 3. Roll to hit. That is the RAW, right?

 

What is the template's range? The template. It says so in the Range column of the weapon. That is the RAW, right?

 

So what do you do when step 2 rolls around when firing the template? Measure with the template- exactly what RAW tells you to do.

 

Lets try reading comprehension again (and I am getting very tired of writing the same thing).

 

What's the template's range? "They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number" (p29) Not 'the length of the template', not 'the range is the template.' "...the word 'template'" is used "for" its range, to "indicate" it is a template weapon.

 

You are welcome to attempt to measure "the word 'template'" with your "measuring device marked in inches".

 

This is actually irrelevant, since we're told to bypass the checking for range by the rules themselves. Lets go through this step-by-step as the rules tell us to.

 

Step 1: Check LoS and declare targets.

No issues. We can see them. We declare them as a target. We declare which weapons are firing.

 

Step 2: Check Range

First, I want to cover an important concept before we go any further. "Firing". Firing covers everything in Step 2 and Step 3 - checking range and rolling to hit comprise firing the weapon.

 

From p16: "This [who is firing] must be declared before checking range, as all weapons in the unit fire at the same time." (Ie, they all fire at the same time so you can't declare some to be firing after others have started firing by checking range. Tracer rounds not permitted in WH40k).

 

From p17: "Whether a unit has moved or not can make a big difference to its firing. If the warriors hold a position, take up firing stances and aim at their targets properly, some weapons can hit targets further away than if they are firing on the move." (Moving makes a difference to its firing, and that "difference to its firing" is the range it can check, making maximum range and checking range a subset of firing the weapon).

 

For brevity I'm only demonstrating Step 2 is part of firing. I can demonstrate Step 3 is also part of firing if necessary.

 

We see we need to know the maximum range for all weapons, so we look up our template weapon, see 'template', don't know how to measure that according to p17 so we look up the Maximum Range rules for weapons (p27) and they tell us two things:

"Ranges are all in inches."

"If the weapon's range is given as 'Template' then the weapon fires using the teardrop-shaped flamer template (the exact method is explained later)" (on p29)

 

That's actually the entirety of the rules for Maximum Range on p27.

 

Conclusions:

-'Template' is not in inches and is therefore not a range.

-The "exact method" is all you need to do something, so templates ignore the previously stated rules for firing because their complete rules to do so are given on p29

-Firing includes checking range and rolling to hit, so the rules for templates override the general rules for Step 2 and Step 3 because they are the complete "exact method" to 'fire' a template weapon.

 

So, following the rules as instructed, we flip to p29 to read the rules for templates.

 

p29:

"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template..."

 

That is literally the first instruction on how to use a template weapon. So our complete and "exact method" of firing a template instructs us to begin in Step 3. We pass Step 2 entirely, the rules specifically instruct us to do so. Placing the template (according to the limitations as laid out on p29) is the complete method for firing a template weapon, no other rules for firing the weapon apply, and all the stated consequences ("All touched models are hit") are invoked.

 

I've laid out the exact rules for actually placing the template in my last post, i refer you there for the mechanics the game specifies on how to place the template legally.

 

And so we find ourselves in Step 3, and then moving on to rolling to wound.

[Something Wycked]

I'm at work and cannot check my rulebook, so I said it, so its so! ^_^

 

But seriously, the onus of proof is not on me to prove "you can't do that!" The onus of proof is on you and Squirrel. Show me where the BRB says you can target more than one unit with a single unit's shooting. Thems the breaks of a permissive rule set. Unless you have a certain piece of Tau wargear, or you're shooting with Long Fangs you cannot choose to shoot two different targets with the same unit.

 

Models from an untargeted unit can be hit by a template weapon, but they are incidental casualties; the template must be placed such that it covers as many of the target unit's models as possible- and that is RAW. So, if in the course of covering as many models from the target unit as possible you also happen to cover models from a different unit, great! You got a bonus on that attack.

 

But you cannot choose to target a second unit simply because your attack is out of range of the first. If you'd like to dispute that, cite me some RAW please ;)

[dswanick]

I'm at work and cannot check my rulebook, so I said it, so its so! ^_^

 

But seriously, the onus of proof is not on me to prove "you can't do that!" The onus of proof is on you and Squirrel. Show me where the BRB says you can target more than one unit with a single unit's shooting. Thems the breaks of a permissive rule set. Unless you have a certain piece of Tau wargear, or you're shooting with Long Fangs you cannot choose to shoot two different targets with the same unit.

 

Models from an untargeted unit can be hit by a template weapon, but they are incidental casualties; the template must be placed such that it covers as many of the target unit's models as possible- and that is RAW. So, if in the course of covering as many models from the target unit as possible you also happen to cover models from a different unit, great! You got a bonus on that attack.

 

But you cannot choose to target a second unit simply because your attack is out of range of the first. If you'd like to dispute that, cite me some RAW please ;)

Squireelloid has exhaustively proven his interpretation. We have both quoted the RAW which makes it possible.

You've chosen to bury your head in the sand and try to "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". So you're in the "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'll just keep trying to baffle them with BS" group?

Now you and Gentlemanloser get to be on my ignore list.