Templates and LoS

[Something Wycked]

Lets try reading comprehension again (and I am getting very tired of writing the same thing).

Yes, lets.

 

What's the template's range?

The template, as stated in the weapon's range column. The RAW tells me my weapon's range is the template, and that's what I measure with. You need to prove otherwise if you wish to contest this.

 

p29:

"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template..."

 

That is literally the first instruction on how to use a template weapon. So our complete and "exact method" of firing a template instructs us to begin in Step 3. We pass Step 2 entirely, the rules specifically instruct us to do so.

Here is where your argument fails.

 

While this may be the "first instruction on how to use a template weapon," the RAW does not instruct you to skip checking the range. The RAW tells you to replace the to-hit roll with a template placement. You do not pass step 2 entirely- the only thing the RAW tells you to do is replace the to-hit roll with the template's placement.

 

Ergo:

 

Step 1: ....

Step 2: You still check range, using the template as the mechanism for checking the weapon's range. If the template does not reach the targeted unit, the shot automatically misses, per Shooting RAW.

Step 3: Instead of rolling dice to find out how many models are hit, you place the template in the final position to discover how many units are hit.

 

Edit: Having a bad day, dswanick? ^_^ I really hope you didn't interpret any of my post as trolling in the slightest. You and I have been through too many valuable discussions (with both of us on the same side, I might add) for this one little issue to throw me onto your ignore list. :/

[Squirrelloid]

No, we aren't allowed to place the template unless specifically instructed to do so. You can't just place the template because you want to.

 

You're making that up.

 

Where is the RAW that tells me I can only place a Template on the table when told to?

 

Where is the rule that says I can't add terrain mid-game?

 

Where is the rule that says I can't remove models from the table at any time?

 

Where is the rule that says when the leaders of both armies are within 6" of each other they don't immediately declare an armistice and have tea time for 30 minutes.

 

Rules are the full list of things you are permitted to do, by definition. That's what rules are. If its not in the rules, you aren't permitted to do it. Or shall we play make-believe fairy princess with wh40k models to the disruption of a game in progress, and your opponent is *in the wrong if he doesn't participate*. Its not prohibited by the rules, it must be allowed! Even required!

 

Isn't making stuff up and claiming it is rules fun?

 

dswanick: I will confess I probably originated the incorrect length of the template, but as i don't think 'template' refers to the actual length of the template as a range due to the wording in the text, actually checking that length didn't seem important to me because i could just say x". Its an unknown quantity since it is never specified as a range in the rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Now you and Gentlemanloser get to be on my ignore list.

 

LoL.

 

Rules are the full list of things you are permitted to do, by definition. That's what rules are. If its not in the rules, you aren't permitted to do it. Or shall we play make-believe fairy princess with wh40k models to the disruption of a game in progress, and your opponent is *in the wrong if he doesn't participate*. Its not prohibited by the rules, it must be allowed! Even required!

 

It's a slippery slope you're building there...

 

But I'm not going to bother going down the route of finding things we do in game that the rules don't explicitly permit. It's tedious and of no real worth.

 

No one has yet to show where you're *permitted* to target/attack/effect a separate unit that isn't the selected one for your unit.

[Squirrelloid]

Lets try reading comprehension again (and I am getting very tired of writing the same thing).

Yes, lets.

 

What's the template's range?

The template, as stated in the weapon's range column. The RAW tells me my weapon's range is the template, and that's what I measure with. You need to prove otherwise if you wish to contest this.

 

p29:

"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template..."

 

That is literally the first instruction on how to use a template weapon. So our complete and "exact method" of firing a template instructs us to begin in Step 3. We pass Step 2 entirely, the rules specifically instruct us to do so.

Here is where your argument fails.

 

While this may be the "first instruction on how to use a template weapon," the RAW does not instruct you to skip checking the range. The RAW tells you to replace the to-hit roll with a template placement. You do not pass step 2 entirely- the only thing the RAW tells you to do is replace the to-hit roll with the template's placement.

 

Ergo:

 

Step 1: ....

Step 2: You still check range, using the template as the mechanism for checking the weapon's range. If the template does not reach the targeted unit, the shot automatically misses, per Shooting RAW.

Step 3: Instead of rolling dice to find out how many models are hit, you place the template in the final position to discover how many units are hit.

 

I have a new policy, I'm just going to quote the ignored points of my earlier posts that make people obviously wrong until they address them.

 

What's the template's range? "They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number" (p29) Not 'the length of the template', not 'the range is the template.' "...the word 'template'" is used "for" its range, to "indicate" it is a template weapon.

 

You are welcome to attempt to measure "the word 'template'" with your "measuring device marked in inches".

 

This is actually irrelevant, since we're told to bypass the checking for range by the rules themselves. Lets go through this step-by-step as the rules tell us to.

 

I should further add it becomes very rules relevant if you try to insist "the word 'template'" is an actual range.

 

Step 2: Check Range

First, I want to cover an important concept before we go any further. "Firing". Firing covers everything in Step 2 and Step 3 - checking range and rolling to hit comprise firing the weapon.

 

From p16: "This [who is firing] must be declared before checking range, as all weapons in the unit fire at the same time." (Ie, they all fire at the same time so you can't declare some to be firing after others have started firing by checking range. Tracer rounds not permitted in WH40k).

 

From p17: "Whether a unit has moved or not can make a big difference to its firing. If the warriors hold a position, take up firing stances and aim at their targets properly, some weapons can hit targets further away than if they are firing on the move." (Moving makes a difference to its firing, and that "difference to its firing" is the range it can check, making maximum range and checking range a subset of firing the weapon).

 

For brevity I'm only demonstrating Step 2 is part of firing. I can demonstrate Step 3 is also part of firing if necessary.

 

We see we need to know the maximum range for all weapons, so we look up our template weapon, see 'template', don't know how to measure that according to p17 so we look up the Maximum Range rules for weapons (p27) and they tell us two things:

"Ranges are all in inches."

"If the weapon's range is given as 'Template' then the weapon fires using the teardrop-shaped flamer template (the exact method is explained later)" (on p29)

 

That's actually the entirety of the rules for Maximum Range on p27.

 

Conclusions:

-'Template' is not in inches and is therefore not a range.

-The "exact method" is all you need to do something, so templates ignore the previously stated rules for firing because their complete rules to do so are given on p29

-Firing includes checking range and rolling to hit, so the rules for templates override the general rules for Step 2 and Step 3 because they are the complete "exact method" to 'fire' a template weapon.

 

So, following the rules as instructed, we flip to p29 to read the rules for templates.

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, this is no longer (and to be honest I don't think has been for a while) an engaging, or even vaguely interesting rule discussion any more.

 

I think it would be best for this thread to be locked.

[Something Wycked]

I have a new policy, I'm just going to quote the ignored points of my earlier posts that make people obviously wrong until they address them.

Oooh, sounds like fun! I can play this game too ^_^

 

What's the template's range? "They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number" (p29) Not 'the length of the template', not 'the range is the template.' "...the word 'template'" is used "for" its range, to "indicate" it is a template weapon.

The template, as stated in the weapon's range column. The RAW tells me my weapon's range is the template, and that's what I measure with. You need to prove otherwise if you wish to contest this.

 

You are welcome to attempt to measure "the word 'template'" with your "measuring device marked in inches".

:lol: Or I could just do what I normally do, and follow the instructions of the range column. If the range column tells me 24", I get out my "measuring device marked in inches" and I measure 24 of them. If the range column tells me "template", I get out my... template. And measure out one... template. :lol:

 

This is actually irrelevant, since we're told to bypass the checking for range by the rules themselves. Lets go through this step-by-step as the rules tell us to.

While this may be the "first instruction on how to use a template weapon," the RAW does not instruct you to skip checking the range. The RAW tells you to replace the to-hit roll with a template placement. You do not pass step 2 entirely- the only thing the RAW tells you to do is replace the to-hit roll with the template's placement.

I'll reiterate: the RAW you quoted directs the player to replace the to-hit roll, not to skip measuring range.

[Squirrelloid]

No one has yet to show where you're *permitted* to target/attack/effect a separate unit that isn't the selected one for your unit.

 

You do only target one squad. This has been shown conclusively. 'Target' is a game term with specific meaning and only that meaning applies in the rules. Refer to the earlier discussion and attempt to dispute it if you can with actual rules quotes if you disagree, but stating it hasn't been shown is clearly in error. And the analysis has not even been addressed, much less refuted, by anyone arguing against my reading. If you want to argue, actually argue the points that have been made. Willfully ignoring a point means you lose the argument on that point - you've effectively conceeded that the template firer is still only targetting the one unit.

 

There are no rules against attacking or affecting separate units. This is not enough in and of itself, but then we look at...

 

The template rules specifically tell us "All touched models are hit", regardless of squad membership. Specific permission to affect a unit that isn't your target.

 

None of this is new. You have made no rules-based objections. I may join dswanick in ignoring you if you persist in pretending that things which have been repeatedly stated have not been. Its dishonest to debate that way. You must address the arguments of the opposition, not just ignore them and hope no one notices.

[Gentlemanloser]

The rule is you select a unit to shoot. You can't shoot any other unit. I'll not bother copying it again.

 

You can't shoot a separate unit with a flamer.

 

That's RAW until you can show how you're permitted to bypass this rule, by RAW...

 

The Template rule that hits any mini under the Template does not bypass the split fire rule.

 

There are no rules against attacking or affecting separate units. This is not enough in and of itself, but then we look at...

 

Er, permissive ruleset. By your own admission.

 

You are not permitted to attack a unit you have not selected...

[Squirrelloid]

I have a new policy, I'm just going to quote the ignored points of my earlier posts that make people obviously wrong until they address them.

Oooh, sounds like fun! I can play this game too ^_^

 

What's the template's range? "They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number" (p29) Not 'the length of the template', not 'the range is the template.' "...the word 'template'" is used "for" its range, to "indicate" it is a template weapon.

The template, as stated in the weapon's range column. The RAW tells me my weapon's range is the template, and that's what I measure with. You need to prove otherwise if you wish to contest this.

 

You are welcome to attempt to measure "the word 'template'" with your "measuring device marked in inches".

:lol: Or I could just do what I normally do, and follow the instructions of the range column. If the range column tells me 24", I get out my "measuring device marked in inches" and I measure 24 of them. If the range column tells me "template", I get out my... template. And measure out one... template. :lol:

 

This is actually irrelevant, since we're told to bypass the checking for range by the rules themselves. Lets go through this step-by-step as the rules tell us to.

While this may be the "first instruction on how to use a template weapon," the RAW does not instruct you to skip checking the range. The RAW tells you to replace the to-hit roll with a template placement. You do not pass step 2 entirely- the only thing the RAW tells you to do is replace the to-hit roll with the template's placement.

I'll reiterate: the RAW you quoted directs the player to replace the to-hit roll, not to skip measuring range.

 

Why does everyone arguing against the RAW ignore the "exact method to fire" a template weapon wording? Oh yeah, because it proves them conclusively wrong in the RAW. see p27, which also refers you *from the Maximum Range rules to the rules on p29 to fire the template*. The maximum range rules themselves tell you to fire (literally steps 2 and 3) template weapons exactly as described on p29. "Exactly", as in no other rules apply. End of story.

 

I shall also refer you to:

 

pvi: "A tape measure or some other measuring device marked in inches is required to measure movement distances and the ranges of weapons."

 

p27: "Maximum Range" rules. "Ranges are all given in inches."

[Something Wycked]

Honestly Squirrelloid, your argument amounts to rules lawyering, not real RAW, and your snippy comments won't earn you any friends here at the B&C.

 

And with that, I think I'm done here. :lol:

[Squirrelloid]

The rule is you select a unit to shoot. You can't shoot any other unit. I'll not bother copying it again.

 

You can't shoot a separate unit with a flamer.

 

That's RAW until you can show how you're permitted to bypass this rule, by RAW...

 

The Template rule that hits any mini under the Template does not bypass the split fire rule.

 

There are no rules against attacking or affecting separate units. This is not enough in and of itself, but then we look at...

 

Er, permissive ruleset. By your own admission.

 

You are not permitted to attack a unit you have not selected...

 

"Attacking" is a game term that refers to close combat. It is not relevant here.

 

"All models in the firing unit that have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit can fire." p16

 

"If the weapon's range is given as 'Template' then the weapon fires using the teardrop-shaped Flamer template (the exact method is explained later)." p27

 

p29: complete and "exact method" for firing a template weapon. Look them up, i'm tired of typing them.

 

---

The template weapon model has LoS to the target, it can fire. It fires using the exact method described on p29 as per the rules on p27. QED.

 

---

The 'split fire' rule, from p16:

"A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets."

 

We have not 'split fire' according to the rule. We have one target. We never take any other models hit or the units they belong to as a target, with all the consequent lack of rule implications (who we can charge, which models we're obligated to touch as many of as possible with the template, etc...).

 

Target is a specific game term. I have adhered to it exactly as described in the rules with no exceptions and no deviations. 'Splitting fire', as defined in the rules, has not occurred.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

"Erm, sarge? The flamer on that Leman Russ is pointing right at us."

"Immaterial Jenkins, it's targetting Cholmondely-Warner's unit over by the woods."

"Yeah, but sarge? There are flames all around us."

"Do you not listen, stupid boy? These flames are not intended for us and so they cannot hurt us. At all."

"Sarge, my feet are on fire."

"Nonsense."

[Gentlemanloser]

I shall also refer you to:

 

Specific over rides Generic.

 

All Ranges are in inches, is over ridden by Range is Template.

 

Just like (a single example of the *much* wider trend) the player controlling the unit allocates wounds. Is over ridden by Telion and the Vindicare.

 

All ranges are in inches. Yes. Unless it's a Template. In which case Template is the range. As this specific rule over rides the general.

 

The 'split fire' rule, from p16:

"A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets."

 

We have not 'split fire' according to the rule. We have one target. We never take any other model's hit or the units they belong to as a target, with all the consequent lack of rule implications (who we can charge, which models we're obligated to touch as many of as possible with the template, etc...).

 

Target is a specific game term. I have adhered to it exactly as described in the rules with no exceptions and no deviations. 'Splitting fire', as defined in the rules, has not occurred.

 

As I said earlier, if you think you're not actually targeting a second unit (and you've not shown any RAW here...) I've got nothing more to say to you about this topic.

 

By Raw, in order to shoot a unit, you must declare it a target. You cannot shoot any other unit, in any other fashion (bar scatter, if I need to repeat it), by any other weapon.

 

That's RAW until you show otherwise.

 

Edit: For instance, look at fire control.

 

the unit may split its fire and fire at two different targets instead of one. Simply declare which models will fire at each target

 

You can *only* fire at targets you select in the first step of the shooting phase.

 

What you are trying to do with Template wepaons is exactly what Fire Control allows you to do. Except you don't have a rule like Fire Control to allow it.

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly Squirrelloid, your argument amounts to rules lawyering, not real RAW, and your snippy comments won't earn you any friends here at the B&C.

 

And with that, I think I'm done here. :lol:

 

Wait, isn't this the +OR+ board? Isn't this where we're meant to discuss *what the rules actually say*, *to the letter*. Not RAI or Rules as I Would Like to Play Them?

 

What is real RAW if it isn't the literal words on the page, exactly as they read, with nothing added and nothing subtracted.

 

You use rules lawyering as a put down, but I fail to see any distinction between it and interpreting the RAW. The real RAW.

 

I honestly have no vested interest in this. If I'm wrong, prove it using the rules exactly as written with nothing added or taken away. I'll conceed when you've done that. But you haven't done that. Throwing a tantrum and calling me names doesn't make my arguments any less right or your arguments (to date) any less wrong.

 

I shall also refer you to:

 

Specific over rides Generic.

 

All Ranges are in inches, is over ridden by Range is Template.

 

Just like (a single example of the *much* wider trend) the player controlling the unit allocates wounds. Is over ridden by Telion and the Vindicare.

 

All ranges are in inches. Yes. Unless it's a Template. In which case Template is the range. As this specific rule over rides the general.

 

Asked and answered. Address all my earlier responses to this. All of them.

[Squirrelloid]

The 'split fire' rule, from p16:

"A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets."

 

We have not 'split fire' according to the rule. We have one target. We never take any other model's hit or the units they belong to as a target, with all the consequent lack of rule implications (who we can charge, which models we're obligated to touch as many of as possible with the template, etc...).

 

Target is a specific game term. I have adhered to it exactly as described in the rules with no exceptions and no deviations. 'Splitting fire', as defined in the rules, has not occurred.

 

As I said earlier, if you think you're not actually targeting a second unit (and you've not shown any RAW here...) I've got nothing more to say to you about this topic.

 

By Raw, in order to shoot a unit, you must declare it a target. You cannot shoot any other unit, in any other fashion (bar scatter, if I need to repeat it), by any other weapon.

 

That's RAW until you show otherwise.

 

You know what the hilarious part is here? I quoted enough of the rules to prove your contention wrong *in the part of my post you quoted immediately above your point*.

 

How does an enemy unit become your target? "...choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat"

 

Its only your target if you nominate it as your target.

 

QED.

[Gentlemanloser]

Its only your target if you nominate it as your target.

 

And that is the only thing you can *shoot* at.

 

God help me if I use attack instead and get into a pendantic semantics debate...

 

Asked and answered. Address all my earlier responses to this. All of them.

 

Strangely, you're wrong though.

 

/shrug

[falldown]

I mean... This is what it comes down to in picture form if this is allowed. (I like pictures)

 

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9277/flamerp.png

 

Space Marines shoot at Tyranid Warriors that are obviously out of range of the flamer. Place template anyways despite no possible way of hitting the Warriors. Subsequently wipe out half the genestealer squad. This is what we are arguing about, and the insane possibilities for abuse that can come from it.

[Squirrelloid]

Its only your target if you nominate it as your target.

 

And that is the only thing you can *shoot* at.

 

God help me if I use attack instead and get into a pendantic semantics debate...

 

Templates don't shoot *at* anything. The "exact method" for "firing" a template is detailed on p29. That governs exactly how the template can be placed and who is hit. Template weapons do not 'shoot' at all, unless shoot is equivalent to 'fire' (which I'll accept without argument). They fire (as per p29 and only p29), and the template is "placed".

 

Asked and answered. Address all my earlier responses to this. All of them.

 

Strangely, you're wrong though.

 

/shrug

 

If I'm wrong, kindly address my points and prove it rather than simply restating the original argument over and over again without ever developing it. I've posted multiple, incredibly detailed, packed with rules quotes responses to this very issue. In any sense I have won the debate on this issue unless and until you address these points. Simply repeating a position is not argument, its insanity. (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result).

[thade]

Let me start off with "Hi, OR. It's been a while. I've been on holiday and it's been nice. I am feeling refreshed."

 

I'm actually surprised this topic hasn't come up before; combining the "can a dread pivot to fire when Immobilized" conundrum with the whole "if a template misses does it still hit" thing is ingenious; it may in fact be unsolvable. Believe it or not, I am actually not here to address that issue. Maybe I will later, after things calm down.

 

Wait, isn't this the +OR+ board? Isn't this where we're meant to discuss *what the rules actually say*, *to the letter*. Not RAI or Rules as I Would Like to Play Them?

Actually, you are both correct and incorrect. You must be new here. <3 Yes, this is where we are meant to discuss what the rules say and what they actually mean. This is the sucky part: they are not always one and the same. If you've spent as much time on this board as some of us, that would ring loudly in your head. Frankly, there are a lot of rules and interpretations that seem simultaneously to-the-letter and completely silly. As has been said, when going with such an option to-the-letter and completely silly, you will find that tempers get heated. This is because:

1. there is no clear and exact solution to the question;
   
2. what appears to be the clear and exact solution may lie outside of the spirit of the game.
   

I'm guessing the mods are still on their holidays? Because, honestly, I see the hammer coming down pretty hard on this thread. The question seems side-lined as tempers seem to have reached boiling points. As what amounts to a grizzled OR veteran around here, may I kindly and gently recommend everybody apologize (whether you mean it or not or need to or not), put the gloves back on, and continue the discussion sans personal judgments for one another. This is something that bears analysis and discussion, but that kind of stuff gets completely lost when our tempers do.

 

Let me conclude with "I hope your holidays were splendid. I missed you guys."

 

Sincerely,

some dood nobody remembers. <3

[Gentlemanloser]

What? That specific over rides generic?

 

I gave an example. It's an inherent part of the rules.

 

The general "All ranges are in inches" is over ridden by the specific "Template is the range" (all paraphrased, I'm bored by this incredibly).

 

Unless you disagree that;

 

Specific rules over ride generic ones

Template being range is a specific rule

 

There's no other need to debate this.

 

Throw out all the references to range in inches. They're all replaced by Template and hold no weight in this thread.

 

some dood nobody remembers.

 

How could we forget you?!? :)

 

As for apologise, I've not got heated in all this. Amused and maybe slightly frustrated (oh and bored!). But not heated. No one needs to apologise to me, and if I've upset anyone I'd be happy to apologise to them. ;)

[dswanick]

Sincerely,

some dood nobody remembers. <3

I remember you, thade. And welcome back - hope your holiday was good. And everything you've said is golden - it was actually touched on a bazillion posts back, but it's gotten buried by more "I say so", "No, I say so...", "Nope, I say so., and you're a doodoo head.".

[Squirrelloid]

What? That specific over rides generic?

 

I gave an example. It's an inherent part of the rules.

 

The general "All ranges are in inches" is over ridden by the specific "Template is the range" (all paraphrased, I'm bored by this incredibly).

 

Unless you disagree that;

 

Specific rules over ride generic ones

Template being range is a specific rule

 

There's no other need to debate this.

 

Throw out all the references to range in inches. They're all replaced by Template and hold no weight in this thread.

 

I have disagreed all along that template is a range. Its a reference to special rules *exactly as the rules on p27 say it* by telling you to refer to p29 for the "exact method" of firing template weapons, a reference that occurs as part of the rules for Maximum Range.

 

I've shown firing includes steps 2 and 3. If you were meant to check range, it would be included (with a procedure to do so) in the "exact method" for *firing* a template weapon on p29.

 

I agree specific overrides generic. But there's no reason to suppose 'template' is a literal range in the first place, and no reason to suppose the general rule that is overridden is "Ranges are all given in inches." The text of p27 clearly suggests the generic rules overwritten are 'Step 2 and Step 3'.

 

Further, specific rules can override generic rules *only if procedures to do so are specified*.

-We are never told how to "measure" template as a range. (Yes, Step 2 specifically requires you to measure). Placing the template is not "measuring", it is "placing" the template. (Indeed, we are told we are only ever allowed, indeed required, to measure in inches with a measuring device marked in same).

-We are never told to place the template except in Step 3 "instead of Rolling to Hit".

 

In short, there is no procedure for checking Range with a Template, so "Ranges are all given as inches" cannot be the general rule that is superseded by the template rules. However, the rules for _firing_ (Steps 2 and 3) clearly are what is superseded, in no small part because we're told the "exact method" to *fire* the template is given on p29 - they specified right on p27 which general rules are superseded.

[thade]

Sincerely,

some dood nobody remembers. <3

I remember you, thade. And welcome back - hope your holiday was good. And everything you've said is golden - it was actually touched on a bazillion posts back, but it's gotten buried by more "I say so", "No, I say so...", "Nope, I say so., and you're a doodoo head.".

Speaking as a doodoo head, I shamelessly admit I skipped from page 3 where "This isn't so bad" to now where it's where it's something I can't quote. I need time and a rule book and if this thread is still live I'll throw my actual value in.

[Gentlemanloser]

If Template wasn't a Range, and ment to over ride the Range general rules, then why is it in the Range section of Weapon stats and not in Type, like everything else?

 

What does 'range' mean for shooting in 40k?

 

It's the maximum distance a Weapon has to effect its target. A template can only effect targets under it. The template itself is the maximum range is has to effect targets. Therefore the template is the range of the weapon.

 

The only counter to this was that all ranges are in inches.

 

That's what is over ridden by the specific Template rule.

 

Template is the maximum effect of the weapon. It's the maximum range of the Weapon. And it doesn't have to be measured in inches. It's measured by the template itself.

 

But I agree, this has been done to death in this thread. There really isn't anything left to add.

[Squirrelloid]

If Template wasn't a Range, and ment to over ride the Range general rules, then why is it in the Range section of Weapon stats and not in Type, like everything else?

 

What does 'range' mean for shooting in 40k?

 

It's the maximum distance a Weapon has to effect its target. A template can only effect targets under it. The template itself is the maximum range is has to effect targets. Therefore the template is the range of the weapon.

 

The only counter to this was that all ranges are in inches.

 

That's what is over ridden by the specific Template rule.

 

Template is the maximum effect of the weapon. It's the maximum range of the Weapon. And it doesn't have to be measured in inches. It's measured by the template itself.

 

But I agree, this has been done to death in this thread. There really isn't anything left to add.

 

Why is 'template' in range instead of 'type' like everything else? That's easy. Because template rules replace the standard rules for range in all respects, unlike everything that gets listed under type. No weapon types affect anything earlier than rolling to hit, so you don't need to be aware of their rules in checking for range. Even blast templates, which go so far as mentioning how checking for range works with them, don't really check range differently from other weapons. You still measure the range and if the target is outside it you miss. If they felt the need to respecify for blast weapons, they would certainly have felt the need to include applicable rules for checking range for templates IF templates had to do that at all.

 

The only reason to put Template in Range instead of Type is because there are *totally different rules that apply* which replace the range rules in their entirety. (The range is certainly not the template. You are "required" to "measure" "ranges of weapons" with a "measuring device marked in inches." as per pvi. And placing a template is not "measuring", the rules never permit it and that's not what the word "measure" means.)

 

Which is exactly what p27 tells you. The "exact method" of firing a template weapon is given elsewhere than the generic rules for firing. So you fire the template according to its "exact method".

 

That all ranges are in inches is not the only counter to your interpretation. Indeed, its merely supporting evidence. The most important counter is that the "exact method" for *firing* a template is on p29. Those are all the rules you need to fire a template.

 

You have still not supplied any procedure that is specified in the rules for "measuring" 'template', any permission in the rules to place the template other than Step 3, any procedure for teh template missing after it has been legally placed in Step 3, or any textual support that the superseded general rule is indeed "Ranges are all given in inches."

 

A 'just so' story is not a rules argument.