Templates and LoS

[falldown]

If the declared target is outside of the Range of the Blast weapon, you don't get to shoot the Blast at that target. If you declared that target before firing, you don't roll hit/scatter. apples/oranges.

[Squirrelloid]

If the declared target is outside of the Range of the Blast weapon, you don't get to shoot the Blast at that target. If you declared that target before firing, you don't roll hit/scatter. apples/oranges.

 

Actually you shoot, but it automatically misses and the blast is not placed. The weapon is still fired.

 

But yes, that just reinforces my point that the reason to put 'template' in the 'range' category is because it replaces the regular range rules - unlike *every weapon rule* which is given under 'Type'. That its apples/oranges is my exact point.

[Gentlemanloser]

The most important counter is that the "exact method" for *firing* a template is on p29. Those are all the rules you need to fire a template.

 

Yes, that is to 'fire' it. How it mechanically works as a weapon. Place Template, anything under is automatically hit.

 

You still need the rest of the rules as a coherent whole. Like how to wound, or remove casualties. Or if the attack, sorry the 'fire', is in range or not. Including the earlier stipulation about the unit needing to be in LoS. And that you can only 'fire' on a single selected unit.

 

The Template rule does nothing to superceed any of these.

 

You have still not supplied any procedure that is specified in the rules for "measuring" 'template'

 

The template is the measure. under it's own rules, anything under it is in range. Anything not under it is out of range.

 

any permission in the rules to place the template other than Step 3

 

Don't need to.

 

Template is the range. You use the template to measure the range, instead of the stick notched with inches, whenever you need to measure the range of a template. You place it as necessary. Lke seeing if your template 'fire' is in range.

 

any procedure for teh template missing after it has been legally placed in Step 3

 

It's out of range, Auto misses. Quoted often in the thread.

 

or any textual support that the superseded general rule is indeed "Ranges are all given in inches."

 

What more do you want?

 

Edit:

 

And round and round we go...

 

If I'm honest with myself, I'm probably only posting now because of your stance form earlier that if someone doesn't reply, it means they've conceded.

 

Let's take it I'm not, and haven't conceded, but I'm not going to post any more.

 

Because this is pointless, boring and nothing more than a ping pong game of back and forth.

 

That ok?

[dswanick]

If the declared target is outside of the Range of the Blast weapon, you don't get to shoot the Blast at that target. If you declared that target before firing, you don't roll hit/scatter. apples/oranges.

But, if you legally place the Blast template per its rules (ie: check range, roll for scatter, place marker in the resultant location) and find that the marker is over models not in the target unit and no models in the target unit you still assess the hits on the other unit - without "changing your target" or "splittin fire", etc.

Similarly, if you legally place the Template (ie: narrow end touching the firing model, not touching any friendly models, touching as many models of the target unit as possible - even if the maximum number possible is zero) and find that there are no models from the target unit but models from another unit under the Template - why do you argue that you just discard the shot? On what RAW basis?

[Squirrelloid]

The most important counter is that the "exact method" for *firing* a template is on p29. Those are all the rules you need to fire a template.

 

Yes, that is to 'fire' it. How it mechanically works as a weapon. Place Template, anything under is automatically hit.

 

You still need the rest of the rules as a coherent whole. Like how to wound, or remove casualties. Or if the attack, sorry the 'fire', is in range or not. Including the earlier stipulation about the unit needing to be in LoS. And that you can only 'fire' on a single selected unit.

 

The Template rule does nothing to superceed any of these.

 

I demonstrated earlier that "firing a weapon" is a game term which covers Steps 2 and 3. Checking range is part of firing a weapon. The template rules specifically are the "exact method" to fire it, so they supersede Steps 2 and 3 in their entirety. QED.

 

Rolling to wound and so forth are not part of a "method" for *firing* a weapon, they are consequences of it having already been fired. These rules have not been superseded by p27 and p29, only the rules to fire a weapon.

 

You have still not supplied any procedure that is specified in the rules for "measuring" 'template'

 

The template is the measure. under it's own rules, anything under it is in range. Anything not under it is out of range.

 

Based on what? Quote RAW please.

 

any permission in the rules to place the template other than Step 3

 

Don't need to.

 

Template is the range. You use the template to measure the range, instead of the stick notched with inches, whenever you need to measure the range of a template. You place it as necessary. Lke seeing if your template 'fire' is in range.

 

No, you are not allowed to place the template unless instructed to. You are only allowed to place it in Step 3. This is abundantly clear from the rules.

 

any procedure for teh template missing after it has been legally placed in Step 3

 

It's out of range, Auto misses. Quoted often in the thread.

 

-It doesn't have a range, it has special rules. It cannot be 'out of range'.

-The rules about checking range are superseded explicitly by the template rules referred to under Maximum Range on p27 as the "exact method" and given on p29. Thus it never auto-misses because that rule does not apply.

 

or any textual support that the superseded general rule is indeed "Ranges are all given in inches."

 

What more do you want?

 

Specific rules text permitting the template to be placed sometime other than Step 3 is absolutely required or some other procedure to check range for templates spelled out in the rules.

 

Some text-based indication that 'template' is an actual range to be measured and specifically supersedes "Ranges are all given in inches." Instead, the text of the rules suggests rather the opposite, including the very rules on maximum range directing us to the rules for templates on p29 as the "exact method" for firing them.

 

Some text-based indication that we don't place the template in Step 3 if you can somehow manage to produce rules which give a method for determining a measurable range for template weapons. Remember that weapons always fire after they're declared to fire, so being out of range does not stop the template from firing, and it fires exactly as described on p29.

 

Some text-based indication that the template, once placed legally as per p29, does not hit touched models if it can't touch the target unit. Even if we're allowed to measure and decide the template is out of range, it still fires, and it may well be that its the automatic miss rule which is superseded since the specific template rules say "all touched models are hit". Specific overrides general, and unlike how you'd like to use it, we actually do have a specific procedure here for determining the results of firing.

 

*Any one of those* not being provided is enough for my interpretation to stand. Failing all 4 of those is indicative of clear intent that the template rules work as I specified.

[falldown]

But, if you legally place the Blast template per its rules (ie: check range, roll for scatter, place marker in the resultant location) and find that the marker is over models not in the target unit and no models in the target unit you still assess the hits on the other unit - without "changing your target" or "splittin fire", etc.

Similarly, if you legally place the Template (ie: narrow end touching the firing model, not touching any friendly models, touching as many models of the target unit as possible - even if the maximum number possible is zero) and find that there are no models from the target unit but models from another unit under the Template - why do you argue that you just discard the shot? On what RAW basis?

 

RAW i can see it working this way, but is very prone to abuse. I cannot give a RAW reason the template attack is discounted without my BRB, which is at home. Assume at this point that I agree with you, I will post again when I get home if i have any legitimate way to dispute what you have said.

[Quixus]

It's the maximum distance a Weapon has to effect its target. A template can only effect targets models under it.

Now those two statements are correct.

The template itself is the maximum range is has to effect targets.

Of course if the targeted (i.e. designated in step 1) unit is beyond 8.25" (or whatever length the little plastic thing has), that unit cannot be affected. The rules however do not say that the template weapon or any other weapon does not fire. They say it automatically misses its designated target. For other weapons this means that no model is affected as you need to roll to hit or the rules explicitly state that the blast marker is removed. For a template weapon on the other hand, it does not matter if the template covers models of the designated target, any model under the template suffers a hit.

[Squirrelloid]

Lets play pretend for a moment and pretend template is an actual range and you measure it by placing the template. (I'm not granting these are true, but I want to pretend for a moment).

 

We already agreed earlier in the thread that template weapons do not abide by LoS when placing the template to fire, ie, they can touch models out of LoS from the model with the template weapon, be placed over terrain you cannot see over, etc...

 

But if we actually have to check range according to the rules first, funny things happen.

 

First, the rules for checking range normally, from p17: "When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit."

 

So, situation:

The model with the template is next to an enemy tank or terrain object which blocks LoS. The enemy squad his unit is targetting is, for the most part, on the other side of the tank from him. However, he can see one model from that squad around the corner of the tank or object.

 

Since only one model is visible, we check range to that model. For the sake of argument, that model is 10" away from the template firer.

 

So, what happens? We can touch other models in the squad, quite a few of them, by simply placing the template over the (enemy) tank or intervening obstacle like we're allowed to do. But we can't legally check range to any of those models we can touch, because we can't see them. Its even likely to be the case that in placing the template to measure distance (by pointing it directly at the visible model) we touch a model in the target unit other than the one we're measuring to!

 

(All my previous objections to 'template' as a measurable range still stand. I'm not waiving any of my arguments. I'm just curious what the opposition thinks happens in this scenario. According to my position its abundantly obvious what happens. The template is obligated to touch as many enemy models in the target unit as possible.)

[Ming]

Hey Thade! Hope you had a great holiday.

 

Yeah, this thread is done for me.

 

"I have changed the color green in my mind to be blue. Thus everything green and blue is blue and I'll keep telling everyone else that green is blue. And they have to believe me, because I'm right."

[SeattleDV8]

Yes , but of course the BRB is COLOR-BLIND, can't you read???

Heh

 

Welcome back Thade.

[Isiah]

I'm guessing the mods are still on their holidays? Because, honestly, I see the hammer coming down pretty hard on this thread.

 

Nope not holiday, just allowing it to run its course provided there are no personal attacks or abuse. There is no reason to shut down an OR discussion unless it breaks forum rules or duplicates another (recent) similar topic, or any other reason that the mod team decides that proves it has outlived its welcome.

[Something Wycked]

Welcome back thade, you were absolutely missed! <3 :)

 

The rules however do not say that the template weapon or any other weapon does not fire. They say it automatically misses its designated target.

The RAW do not state that the weapon automatically misses its designated target- the RAW state that the "shot automatically misses," full stop.

 

For other weapons this means that no model is affected as you need to roll to hit or the rules explicitly state that the blast marker is removed.

True.

 

For a template weapon on the other hand, it does not matter if the template covers models of the designated target, any model under the template suffers a hit.

Partially true. If in Step 2 the template is found to be out of range of the designated target, the "shot automatically misses," and you do not proceed to Step 3 to determine what models are hit.

 

Said another way, when you are checking range (Step 2) with the template, you are not determining hits (Step 3) with the template.

 

Borrowing falldown's graphic for an illustration:

 

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/SomePsycho/1.jpg

The Marine player declares he's shooting at the Warriors, and upon finding the Flamer is out of range of the Warriors, turns it around and targets the Genestealers. This is what Squirrelloid is arguing for. :) :)

 

Things wrong with this:

1. First and foremost, choosing to fire at two different targets. The RAW permit each single unit to shoot at one single enemy unit per turn. Certain special rules override this restriction, as this is a permissive rule set (Long Fangs, Tau wargear, PotMS, etc). Permission to target two separate enemy units is not granted by the weapon type Template. Templates may strike more than one unit, but the player may not choose to target the second unit. If while placing of the template such that it covers the maximum amount of models in the one single target unit it also happens to cover models from a second unit (or third, or fourth, etc.) then, as the RAW state, "any" models under the template are hit. But the RAW do not permit Template weapons the special ability of choosing to target a unit different than the one the rest of the unit is firing at, and the argument that you are not "targeting" a secondary unit while purposefully covering that unit and only that unit with the template is rules lawyering at best and fully dishonest at worst.

 

2. Templates, like all other shooting weapons, have a range. It is listed in the weapon's "Range" column, like all other shooting weapons. And, like all other shooting weapons, it is possible for them to miss their targets through being out of range. The RAW for this comes out of the shooting phase rules: a weapon whose target is found to be outside the maximum range of the weapon automatically misses. The RAW do not state "your shot automatically missed, but you may pick another target and try again." The shot misses, full stop. The RAW that "any model under the template is hit" does not override this, and here's why: range is checked first, and then you see which models are hit by the target. The steps are not one and the same, no matter how quickly they flow from one to the other while playing.

 

Need another illustration?

 

If what Squirrelloid is arguing for is true and correct, then the following situation is also allowed:

 

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/SomePsycho/2.jpg

 

The Dreadknight has a Heavy Incinerator. The DK's player declares it is firing at the target at the bottom of the image. The target is found to be out of range, so the DK's player chooses instead to use the HI on the target to the right. Or, even better, the DK fires its Heavy Psycannon at the original declared target and then places the HI template on the second target.

 

:lol:

[Squirrelloid]

I see we are still continuing to make up rules.

 

The rules however do not say that the template weapon or any other weapon does not fire. They say it automatically misses its designated target.

The RAW do not state that the weapon automatically misses its designated target- the RAW state that the "shot automatically misses," full stop.

 

Where is a miss defined for template weapons? There's no such thing as a "miss" for template weapons. They hit all touched models. They *never* miss.

 

Missing *is* defined for regular weapons. Its what happens when you don't roll sufficiently high on your to-hit roll. The miss becomes automatic if a regular weapon is out of range, but that means that we treat it as a failed roll. As there's no roll for templates, there's no misses, and thus 'automatic miss' has no meaning for them.

 

I don't think you even get to the 'automatic miss' rule in the course of using a template because you skip that section, but even if you do it doesn't effect the template at all.

 

For other weapons this means that no model is affected as you need to roll to hit or the rules explicitly state that the blast marker is removed.

True.

 

For a template weapon on the other hand, it does not matter if the template covers models of the designated target, any model under the template suffers a hit.

Partially true. If in Step 2 the template is found to be out of range of the designated target, the "shot automatically misses," and you do not proceed to Step 3 to determine what models are hit.

 

Said another way, when you are checking range (Step 2) with the template, you are not determining hits (Step 3) with the template.

 

You are never instructed to check range with the template. You "measure" range (as per the actual rules for Step 2). Placing the template is not measuring range, it is 'placing the template', and is only permitted in Step 3 as per p29. "Measure" is an action specifically done with "a measuring device marked in inches" (p vi).

 

Furthermore, even if we assume you measure range with a template (all evidence and lack of a procedure to do so to the contrary), weapons which "automatically miss" because they are out of range still fire. That's explicit. A template weapon fires *exactly* as described on p29, the template is still placed, and the template rules that "All touched models are hit" are more specific and so override the general "automatic miss" rule. Specific always takes precedence over general rules. Indeed, misses are not even defined for a template weapon. It *can't miss*, so there's no such thing as an automatic miss for it. Regular weapons define what a miss is, so missing automatically has a well-defined meaning for them. There is no such meaning for a template.

 

Borrowing falldown's graphic for an illustration:

 

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/SomePsycho/1.jpg

The Marine player declares he's shooting at the Warriors, and upon finding the Flamer is out of range of the Warriors, turns it around and targets the Genestealers. This is what Squirrelloid is arguing for. :D :D

 

If Falldown's image is acceptable, that version of the image is acceptable as well. All the rules for placing the template, as detailed on p29, have been followed. They're rules identical images.

 

No need to be snide and laugh about it. If the rules do in fact permit that image, well, then its what's allowed under the rules.

 

Things wrong with this:

1. First and foremost, choosing to fire at two different targets. The RAW permit each single unit to shoot at one single enemy unit per turn. Certain special rules override this restriction, as this is a permissive rule set (Long Fangs, Tau wargear, PotMS, etc).

 

You're making up rules again. The rules permit a unit to declare only one target. This has been adhered to *religiously*.

 

The rules say nothing explicitly about *firing* at multiple targets. Indeed, I'm not totally sure what the phrase "firing at" would mean in the rules. If "firing at" is meant to be identical to "target", then this has still been adhered to religiously. If to "fire at" instead means to affect the unit with weapon's fire, then the template rules specifically permit this (all touched models are hit regardless of squad. If you hit 4 from your target unit, 1 from unit B, and 2 from unit C, you have "fired at" 3 units despite only "targetting" 1). At which point you are entirely wrong and the rules for templates do permit you to "fire at" multiple units.

 

Could you please restrict yourself to actual game terms. "Fire" is a technical term in the rules, but "fire at" is vague and unclear. Indeed, the only place i can find the string "fire at" in the rules is in the phrase "fire at once", where 'at once' is clearly a subordinate clause of "fire", and thus nothing is being 'fired at' by that sentence.

 

Permission to target two separate enemy units is not granted by the weapon type Template. Templates may strike more than one unit, but the player may not choose to target the second unit. If while placing of the template such that it covers the maximum amount of models in the one single target unit it also happens to cover models from a second unit (or third, or fourth, etc.) then, as the RAW state, "any" models under the template are hit.

 

This is entirely correct. The conclusions you draw from it are sadly entirely wrong.

 

If the maximum amount of models you can touch is zero, then any placement of the template necessarily covers that maximum amount of models. Falldown's picture accurately shows it covering 0 models in the target unit. Your picture accurately shows it covering 0 models in the target unit. 0 is the maximum it can touch and *0 models are indeed touched*. It may also happen to touch other models, like the genestealers, and *all touched models are hit*.

 

You have still only *targetted* the original unit, and you touched all 0 of them you were required to.

 

 

But the RAW do not permit Template weapons the special ability of choosing to target a unit different than the one the rest of the unit is firing at, and the argument that you are not "targeting" a secondary unit while purposefully covering that unit and only that unit with the template is rules lawyering at best and fully dishonest at worst.

 

How is a new target chosen? Are you obligated to touch as many models of this second squad as possible? The answer is clearly no, and therefore they are not your target. Your target is the squad you declared before. (see p16)

 

The argument that you are not targeting the second unit is *entirely correct*. The rules give one and only one way a squad becomes your target: you explicitly declare it to be your target. As you never designated the second squad as your target, it is not your target, and you are not bound to touch as many models as possible from it like you would be if it were your target. Claiming it becomes a second target is making up rules at best, and dishonest debate at worst. It is absolutely clear from the rules that at no point in time is that unit your target.

 

If you still disagree, quote the rulebook. If you can't quote the rulebook to prove that it becomes a target, you've lost the argument.

 

2. Templates, like all other shooting weapons, have a range.

 

But "Ranges are all given in inches" (p27), which means 'template' is not a range.

 

It is listed in the weapon's "Range" column, like all other shooting weapons.

 

And the rules for the Range column (p27) explicitly say that all ranges are in inches (which it is not), and that "If the weapon's range is given as 'Template' then the weapon fires using the tear-shaped Flamer template (the exact method is explained later)." (It is explained on p29)

 

Things to note:

-The statement "The range is template" is not true. The rules would have said that if they were. They say its *given as* template. There's absolutely no reason for the extra language unless template is something other than a range.

 

-'Template' is given in quotes. This is a grammatical feature that is quite distinctive. 'Template' is being *mentioned*, but not *used* (these are technical terms, i refer you to a proper book on grammar or philosophy of language, or the wikipedia page Use-Mention distinction). When you say "The range is 48 inches" you are _using_ 48", the actual 48", ie a real measure of distance. When you say "The range is given as 'template'", you are mentioning _the word_ template (as p29 reinforces) but not the object template. Its not saying the range is the actual template, its not even talking about the actual template as being in the range column at all, its literally talking about the word template and that it occurs in the range column (and what you should do - flip to p29 - when you see it).

 

-The rules on Maximum Range say the template weapon _fires_, not checks range, and does so _exactly_ as described on p29. Isn't that curious that the rules on Maximum Range immediately direct you to p29, tell you that's the "exact method", and never provide any instruction on an actual range for templates or how you might measure it?

 

And, like all other shooting weapons, it is possible for them to miss their targets through being out of range.

 

Templates never miss. "Misses" are not described for them, and they fire using the "exact method" found on p29, which does not permit misses.

 

The RAW for this comes out of the shooting phase rules: a weapon whose target is found to be outside the maximum range of the weapon automatically misses. The RAW do not state "your shot automatically missed, but you may pick another target and try again." The shot misses, full stop. The RAW that "any model under the template is hit" does not override this, and here's why: range is checked first, and then you see which models are hit by the target. The steps are not one and the same, no matter how quickly they flow from one to the other while playing.

 

-Templates have no maximum range.

-Even if we assume they do have a maximum range, all weapons fire regardless of being in range or not. Once a weapon/model is declared to be firing, it must fire. It cannot choose later to not fire. (This can affect things like whether its permissible for a unit to assault that turn, etc..., and is explicit in the rules). The template weapon thus still fires exactly as described on p29.

-Firing the template weapon means placing the template. Thus you place the template and choose a legal orientation regardless of whether or not you're supposed to check range, or whether or not you're 'in range' if you do.

-All the rules for placing the template apply, including "All touched models are hit." Specific overrides general. There are no misses permitted for templates.

 

So even if by some miracle you can demonstrate template is an actual range we have a procedure for measuring it doesn't stop the template from being placed exactly as described regardless of how far away the target squad is.

 

Need another illustration?

 

If what Squirrelloid is arguing for is true and correct, then the following situation is also allowed:

 

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/SomePsycho/2.jpg

 

The Dreadknight has a Heavy Incinerator. The DK's player declares it is firing at the target at the bottom of the image. The target is found to be out of range, so the DK's player chooses instead to use the HI on the target to the right. Or, even better, the DK fires its Heavy Psycannon at the original declared target and then places the HI template on the second target.

 

:)

 

The flamer template must still be touched to the actual weapon mount on vehicles, and he is only allowed to pivot once before firing any weapons. If he can in fact still light up the second squad with that restriction, then yes, that is exactly what is permitted. I see no rules problem with that except your inappropriate use of the word target. Please stop abusing game terms. The second squad is not a target.

 

Specifically your last sentence is true aside from the improper use of the word target. Since he had to declare which weapons he was firing before he even checked range, if he declared both the Psycannon and the HI he'd have to fire both, and if there is a legal placement of the template which touches models in the second squad, which there probably is, then that is exactly as the rules specify.

 

You're free to laugh about it, but it remains what the rules actually say.

[Seahawk]

-Templates have no maximum range.

Yes they do. "All weapons have a maximum effective range...if a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically." p.17

 

So even if by some miracle you can demonstrate template is an actual range

Easy enough. "They are indicated by having the word "template" for their range instead of a number." The range is the template, not a number, this is pretty clear. So, since the template is out of range of the target unit, "his shots simply do not reach" and he "misses automatically." The only way to generate wounds on a target unit is by converting a hit to it. With no hits, there can't possibly be wounds. I acknowledge that there's no wording for removing the template in the case of a miss, but it can't swing around to a different unit because it's out of range of the target unit. Even if it does cover a different unit in the way, for instance, you're at an impasse. One rule says they all miss. Another says they all hit. What do you do?

 

All the rules on page 29 are in addition to the normal rules. There is no weapon type: template. It doesn't exist. It's a characteristic of a different weapon (usually Assault weapon). "Template" means the range and use of the cone-shaped template, as shown above.

 

You keep saying that you ignore step 2 in shooting: Check Range. No, you don't. The template entry only discusses how to hit your target, which is step 3. Weapons with the template characteristic/range are still bound by the rules for shooting. Your claiming of the entry on p.29 being all-inclusive would also get rid of the following rules: Check LOS and Pick a Target, Take Saving Throws (though it does mention "no cover saves"), and Remove Casualties, since they are not in the "exact method." All you can do is hit and wound, but not see or actually remove models.

 

 

The flamer template must still be touched to the actual weapon mount on vehicles, and he is only allowed to pivot once before firing any weapons.

I assume you don't know the Grey Knights rules at all, but the Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature and the Heavy Incinerator lobs its template like the Hellhound.

 

 

Lastly, trying to read GW rules like a legal document is, at best, a vain effort. They suck at writing everything, and typically use words and phrases in a casual manner, not a legally binding one. For instance, their use of "the exact method is described elsewhere" is not meant to be all-inclusive like this, but rather just a way of saying "look at this page to know how to use this weapon in the context of the shooting rules." They chose very poorly to use the word "exact." If it was changed to: "Use the rules on page 29 to resolve hits and wounds with this weapon," would that change your stance on it?

 

This rules quibble is very similar to one I found with WHFB. They changed the rules for lances, but when put with the magical weapons rules, legally you can use the lance every turn and get the +2 strength bonus every turn, even when you didn't charge. While it was accepted as being the (terribly written) RAW, I also got the "No TO would EVER allow it, though they'd allow your opponent to smack you with the rulebook" responses.

 

I figure this will result in something very similar. This reading of the rules may be grudgingly accepted as the RAW way to do it, but nobody will ever use it and TO's will lay the smack down on it.

[Squirrelloid]

-Templates have no maximum range.

Yes they do. "All weapons have a maximum effective range...if a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically." p.17

 

And "Ranges are all given in inches." We are at an impass. Its pretty clear 'template' is not in inches.

 

Add to that the instructions under Maximum Range _mention_ but do not _use_ template, and direct you elsewhere to 'fire' the weapon, and its pretty clear that the rule an exception is being made to is the weapon having a maximum range.

 

I am still unclear how one "measures" 'template' according to the rules.

 

Further, the template still fires, and "All touched models are hit." Even if we accept your position on range, the template rules supersede the automatic miss rules. Specific rule takes priority over general rule.

 

So even if by some miracle you can demonstrate template is an actual range

Easy enough. "They are indicated by having the word "template" for their range instead of a number." The range is the template, not a number, this is pretty clear. So, since the template is out of range of the target unit, "his shots simply do not reach" and he "misses automatically." The only way to generate wounds on a target unit is by converting a hit to it. With no hits, there can't possibly be wounds. I acknowledge that there's no wording for removing the template in the case of a miss, but it can't swing around to a different unit because it's out of range of the target unit. Even if it does cover a different unit in the way, for instance, you're at an impasse. One rule says they all miss. Another says they all hit. What do you do?

 

All the rules on page 29 are in addition to the normal rules. There is no weapon type: template. It doesn't exist. It's a characteristic of a different weapon (usually Assault weapon). "Template" means the range and use of the cone-shaped template, as shown above.

 

No, 'template' means the word template. It is a mention, not a use. If I say "'Cow' is a three letter word," I mean the actual word 'cow' has three letters. I do not mean a physical cow has three letters. If I said "Cow is a three letter word" I'd be wrong. Use-Mention distinction is critically important to reading comprehension. 'Template' is in quotes, it is a mention by the rules of grammar, and must be treated as such.

 

As the "exact method", the rules on p29 are the *only* rules you need to fire a template. This is what "exact" means. There's no room for wiggling out of that.

 

You keep saying that you ignore step 2 in shooting: Check Range. No, you don't. The template entry only discusses how to hit your target, which is step 3. Weapons with the template characteristic/range are still bound by the rules for shooting. Your claiming of the entry on p.29 being all-inclusive would also get rid of the following rules: Check LOS and Pick a Target, Take Saving Throws (though it does mention "no cover saves"), and Remove Casualties, since they are not in the "exact method." All you can do is hit and wound, but not see or actually remove models.

 

Either you ignore step 2 or it doesn't matter because the template rules supersede the automatic miss. I'm fine either way. When a specific rule contradicts a general rule it *always* has priority.

 

The template rules are the "exact method" to "fire" the template. Firing a weapon is a game term that comprises steps 2 and 3 explicitly. Thus, everything you need to do, the "exact method", for steps 2 and 3 are given on p29. QED.

 

Checking LoS and picking a target are *not* part of firing a weapon. They are done before you declare which weapons are firing as explicitly laid out on p16, and thus *cannot* be part of firing a weapon.

 

Rolling to wound and the attending consequences is *not* part of firing a weapon. It is a consequence of a weapon having been fired, and happens after weapons have fired. As such, the normal rules for rolling to wound are followed, and all attendent consequences of doing so with only the modifications in the template rules.

 

The rules on p29 are only the "exact method" to "fire", everything else is as normal except where specifically mentioned (ignoring cover saves).

 

Templates have their own rules for shooting. Their own "exact method" for 'firing'. Explicitly. Its stated right on p27 under the rules for Maximum Range. (And if it wasn't already clear enough in the rules that checking range is part of firing a weapon, why would instructions for "firing" a template be given under the rules for Maximum Range if Maximum Range wasn't part of the standard rules for firing?)

 

The flamer template must still be touched to the actual weapon mount on vehicles, and he is only allowed to pivot once before firing any weapons.

I assume you don't know the Grey Knights rules at all, but the Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature and the Heavy Incinerator lobs its template like the Hellhound.

 

I don't actually know the Grey Knights rules, I assumed it was like a Dreadnought since it could fire two weapons and I did not expect an Imperial army to include monstrous creatures.

 

Lastly, trying to read GW rules like a legal document is, at best, a vain effort. They suck at writing everything, and typically use words and phrases in a casual manner, not a legally binding one. For instance, their use of "the exact method is described elsewhere" is not meant to be all-inclusive like this, but rather just a way of saying "look at this page to know how to use this weapon in the context of the shooting rules." They chose very poorly to use the word "exact." If it was changed to: "Use the rules on page 29 to resolve hits and wounds with this weapon," would that change your stance on it?

 

The problem with your argument is they explicitly added the word "exact". They didn't have to include it. The sentence is perfectly grammatical and sensible without it. But they did include the word "exact", which makes both the way the rules are meant to be read *and* the intention blindingly clear to anyone without preconceived notions. p29 is the "exact method".

 

You can't cherry pick words like that. Especially when you want to insist that we have to abide by the letter of a more general rule that "all" weapons have a maximum range. You depend just as much, if not moreso, on specific wording than i do.

 

(Without it I would still argue my end interpretation, but it would not be nearly so clear that you skip step 2. Instead I'd be focusing on that all declared weapons still fire, and the template rules have no provision to miss and explicitly state "All touched models are hit". The word "exact" is sufficient and necessary to prove my position, but hardly the only support for it).

 

Ultimately we have one _general rule_ "All weapons have a maximum range" which contradicts another _general rule_ "Ranges are all given in inches". We then have a specific set of rules for template weapons that are described as the "exact method" to "fire" those weapons, and that specifically _mention_ but do not _use_ the word 'template' for the range. Not only do we know that specific rules override general rules, we are explicitly told which general rule is being overridden (All weapons have a maximum range) by rules text included under the header of Maximum Range on p27. The maximum range rules themselves tell us to fire the weapon as per p29 instead of as per a normal weapon.

 

I am unable to comment on rules disputes in WHFB as I am not aware of the RAW in that case.

[Seahawk]

So, are you advocating for using template weapons this way, or are you against using template weapons this way but showing how the rules are not what we think of them?

[Squirrelloid]

So, are you advocating for using template weapons this way, or are you against using template weapons this way but showing how the rules are not what we think of them?

 

I'm advocating they can be used this way. I made a post earlier as to why i think its pretty clear the rules *intend* for templates to be used this way based on word choice and what is notably absent from the rules.

 

And that these rules have been the same for *at least* 15 years and never once been errataed or even FAQed.

 

GW has included extra unnecessary language which only confirms my interpretation. I have to assume intentionally. (If we start assuming the words used are accidental the concept of 'rules' goes out the window. And that these words are extra and unnecessary to convey the meaning I support, and only act to amplify my interpretation, they are pretty definitive on intent.)

 

I actually disagree. [that the literal rules are not intended]

 

The words "exact method" are what do it for me. They're explicit instructions to follow the rules on p29 and nothing else for firing the weapon. This is a clear expression of intent on GWs part.

 

The hedging on what 'template' actually is in the range column is also convincing. They say 'the range is x"' whenever its a traditional range, but they specifically say "the range is given as 'template'" and "indicated by the having the word 'template' for their range" whenever talking about templates. They could have just said 'the range is template'. They didn't. This is a pretty clear statement of intent that 'template' is not a literal range to be measured.

 

The template rules have been basically untouched for *at least 3 editions*. They have never once been FAQed or Errataed. Never once!, yet rules disputes with far more obvious resolutions under the rules have been errataed and/or FAQed, sometimes repeatedly. And this isn't a case where the RAW is actually unclear, just where its counter-intuitive to most people, ie, it would need errata to change or add text, not just a FAQ.

 

It begins to strain credulity that GW doesn't actually mean exactly what is written under the template rules.

 

(Edit: Yes, even with intent I look to the rules to find clues for what GW means. I am not mr. Alessio, I have no idea what he was thinking, and my only clue to his thinking is what he wrote and what is notably absent from what he wrote.)

 

(Edit2: I should probably note that I'd be willing to play the houseruled version where templates can miss if and only if it is a pickup game and specifically discussed beforehand. I will assume the RAW is in effect if no agreement is made before play, but I'm willing to negotiate when its just a random game).

 

(Edit3: The longstanding lack of change is part of what makes it so convincing. If this were still 3rd edition I'd be more sympathetic to the people who object to the literal RAW here. But GW has had almost *15 years* to supply different wording, covering 2 new editions and countless FAQs and errata releases.)

[Seahawk]

For me the intent is in the overall context, which is missing from this argument. The intent is for all weapons in a unit to only be able to affect one unit per turn, except for scattering blasts and units "in the way" of templates (ie, between the firer and target unit within 8.25") and special rules present in Space Wolves, Tau, Super heavies, and so on.

 

This is a rules issue that has never come up since '98, and everyone who has played since then hasn't used this interpretation, precisely because it goes against the intent of the shooting rules.

 

Could it be that the intent is placed in a vacuum regardless of the rest of the entire ruleset, rather than supposed to be in terms of the whole as your position puts forth? Possibly. Given that nobody has thought of it for the past 13-14 years though, I am a bit doubtful.

[Isiah]

OK. As Squirrelloid has rather cheekily seen fit to open yet another topic on the use of templates this one is closed.

 

.

 

Cheers

I