Deliverance Lost

[KJB]

The Raven Guard commander and the Imperial Fist captain have a wager to see who will kill Horus

 

The Raven Guard think it will be Russ, the Fists think it will Sanguinius...

[Snejk]

Corax being afraid of Curze (he admitted it) and Alpharius' treatment from Erebus and Abaddon bugged me.

 

 

The Abaddon and Erebus thing bugged me as well. Alpharius should have just given them a bolter round to the face. Especially Erebus. I hate him. I really, really hate him.

Other than that i was pretty much pleased with the whole thing.

[Astalon]

I'm enjoying this book mostly and am near the end.

 

Spoiler (not sure how to cover the text like the other spoilers in this thread! So just black text :blink: )

 

The thing that bugs me though is the creation of the 'better' Astartes by Corax and how easily they overcame seasoned warriors in training. It doesn't seem to me to make sense that the Emperor wouldn't have created better Astartes if he could. The opening of this metaphorical 'secret door' in the background of 30k, i.e. the gene-tech, rather spoils some of the 'otherness' of the setting for me. If it's just gene-tech that created the Primarchs and Adeptus Astartes it can spoil the suspension of my disbelief by making it all too touchable: Primarchs are just X + Y, where we know what those variables are.

[Icee77]

So I finished the book and I was part happy and part annoyed.

What made me happy was that Corax was portrayed well and the mystery was pretty well made.

What annoyed me was

that even though the project to make better astartes, although not successful, does not seem enough to make Corax depressed and leave for the warp. Something is going to be retconned.

 

[Sgt.Sangha]

So I finished the book and I was part happy and part annoyed.

What made me happy was that Corax was portrayed well and the mystery was pretty well made.

What annoyed me was

that even though the project to make better astartes, although not successful, does not seem enough to make Corax depressed and leave for the warp. Something is going to be retconned.

 

I think what will happen is

that the raptors will go through further degeneration through out the campaign and thus will need to be given the emperors peace and this will have an effect on Corax, remember they are effected by a virus that originates from the warp, there may be more surprises in store.

 

[Conn Eremon]

I'm not quite done with the book yet, but there was one quote that really stood out for me and I delved into wikipedia to understand the technical terms.

Here's the quote:

 

‘Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’ said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the

cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate."

 

Now, Sample Four likely means Primarch IV. Which is Perturabo. Now, physical durability is obvious, but the rest might not be considering your academic background. A quick look through wikipedia and the Kindle dictionary (I know, not the best sources, but acceptable for the moment) shows that nociceptors is essentially what we use to feel pain, it's how our bodies register it. The lack or deficiency of it means you have a dulled sense of pain, or feel no pain. Which is an amazing counter to Rogal Dorn and his pain glove, don't you think? The proprioceptory function is basically our sense of self in relationship to ourself. You will always know where your hand is, sort of thing. People who have severed limbs who can still feel like it's still there is because while the limb is physically gone, their proprioception still includes it. This is from the wiki article talking about how a deficiency in your proprioception is experienced: "Possible experiences include suddenly feeling that feet or legs are missing from one's mental self-image; needing to look down at one's limbs to be sure they are still there; and falling down while walking, especially when attention is focused upon something other than the act of walking." 'cytoarchetectonic structure' by the way, references the 'architecture' of cells in a tissue, so it's basically saying that the Emperor deliberately modified Perturabo's genetic make-up to either completely lack or greatly decrease his nociceptors and proprioception. Why make a Primarch that has to constantly think about walking in order to keep from falling down? The other primarchs listed are interesting as well, to a lessened degree. The tech-priest finds non-human tissue, possibly canine-derived, in subject six, which is Leman Russ. Subject twenty, Alpharius, has far less growth boosting augmentations than the others.

 

 

Sorry if I took the spoiler tags too far.

[Sgt.Sangha]

I'm not quite done with the book yet, but there was one quote that really stood out for me and I delved into wikipedia to understand the technical terms.

Here's the quote:

 

‘Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’ said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the

cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate."

 

Now, Sample Four likely means Primarch IV. Which is Perturabo. Now, physical durability is obvious, but the rest might not be considering your academic background. A quick look through wikipedia and the Kindle dictionary (I know, not the best sources, but acceptable for the moment) shows that nociceptors is essentially what we use to feel pain, it's how our bodies register it. The lack or deficiency of it means you have a dulled sense of pain, or feel no pain. Which is an amazing counter to Rogal Dorn and his pain glove, don't you think? The proprioceptory function is basically our sense of self in relationship to ourself. You will always know where your hand is, sort of thing. People who have severed limbs who can still feel like it's still there is because while the limb is physically gone, their proprioception still includes it. This is from the wiki article talking about how a deficiency in your proprioception is experienced: "Possible experiences include suddenly feeling that feet or legs are missing from one's mental self-image; needing to look down at one's limbs to be sure they are still there; and falling down while walking, especially when attention is focused upon something other than the act of walking." 'cytoarchetectonic structure' by the way, references the 'architecture' of cells in a tissue, so it's basically saying that the Emperor deliberately modified Perturabo's genetic make-up to either completely lack or greatly decrease his nociceptors and proprioception. Why make a Primarch that has to constantly think about walking in order to keep from falling down? The other primarchs listed are interesting as well, to a lessened degree. The tech-priest finds non-human tissue, possibly canine-derived, in subject six, which is Leman Russ. Subject twenty, Alpharius, has far less growth boosting augmentations than the others.

 

 

Sorry if I took the spoiler tags too far.

As a medical student I concur with the above statement, nocioreceptors(pain) are found in the skin and follow along different pathways to the brain then say proprioceptors, pain is ipsilateral and proprioception is contralateral as for putting him in a condition where he must constantly think about walking is incorrect, instead it allows him to create additional arms limbs, say in the case of mechanical arms, you would need less proprioceptive skills with regards to your other limbs, instead you would have direct connections to your brainstem and cerebellum which control your and cooridinate your movements with regards to previous known movements

[malika666]

Throughout the book it's kind of stated that the Iron Hands and Salamanders were wiped out at Istvaan. Ok, I can get it that the Loyalist don't know who survived the massacre, meaning that the perceived possibility of the Salamanders being practically wiped out is there. However, with the Iron Hands this would have been different. Only the first company of Ferrus Manus' Legion actually went to Istvaan, the rest not being able to get there quickly enough. You could thus argue that the Iron Hands still have the majority of their forces available, despite their defeat at the hands of the Traitors...

[barlu]

Ah good! I got hold of a copy about a month ago and have been waiting to discuss it with people!

It's an interesting book and it's awesome to see Corax and the Ravenguard get some love. I'm not so sure about Gav Thorpe as a writer though- all his characters are far too human. Which is fine for his Imperial Guard books, but not so great with Eldar or Space Marines... Unless of course the Ravenguard are meant to be "more human" than other Legions..?

 

i felt that they were very undisciplined even for astartes i think the term human is a wrong one to use(yeas i know "more human") it was more that they are griller fighters and most outfits that operate like that have a lack of militarily discipline but that makes them more "flexible" able to operate with out the upper levels of command. in the book they kinda showed this with the exchange between the fists when they were gifted there new amour. even the way that they wagered, the lack of finery (the lack of beds even), and the way that agapeto talks to corax at the end of the book u would not see that kind of insubordination for the fists, ultramarine's, empires children, or even death guard.

 

i did like that we got under the skin of this legion cause i relay liked the book ravens flight how ever i did feel that deliverance lost did have to do some patch work between the two books. i found that corax was a lot more.... subdued (yes we were not in his head as much ( i feel that is something the H.H. series has begun to lack over the last 10 books or so)) almost like a different person isvan may have changed him but the ravens flight was in isvan so i kinda rule that one out

 

realy enjoyed the book thought good to see the alfalegion again any time some one can say with one of u is Alpharius and u hear "I'm alpharius" "No I'm alpharius"

No I'm alpharius no its me I'm alpharius

makes me smile

[Kodanshi]

Finally had it delivered through the post to me and I am reading it avidly. Not gotten very far, but yes the scene with Abaddon, Erebus and Alpharius irked me too. What the hell kind of an Astartes would have the gumption to disrespect a PRIMARCH like that? Or is it because he is 'smaller' than the other primarchs?

 

In reference to Corax's fear, the only misgivings he had were that he could easily have ended up in Batman's place if he had arrived on Nostramo instead of Kurze.

[malika666]

Finally had it delivered through the post to me and I am reading it avidly. Not gotten very far, but yes the scene with Abaddon, Erebus and Alpharius irked me too. What the hell kind of an Astartes would have the gumption to disrespect a PRIMARCH like that? Or is it because he is 'smaller' than the other primarchs?

 

In reference to Corax's fear, the only misgivings he had were that he could easily have ended up in Batman's place if he had arrived on Nostramo instead of Kurze.

 

Erebus never had that much respect for the Primarchs to begin with. I think Abaddon really doesn't care that much about them either, only about Horus (who he seems to loath after the Heresy, which kind of shows what kind of character Abaddon is...)

[Kodanshi]

^ Yeah, I got that, but it seemed … weird to me. Then again, I suppose Astartes have the fear mostly bred out of them, so he wouldn’t care that the primarch might tear his head off at the neck for his insubordination.

[malika666]

Fear isn't that bred out of them. I think that would be propaganda. It was mentioned in The Dark King that the Templars and Phoenix Guard actually feared Konrad Curze as he came after them.

 

As for Erebus, I think he would play it careful with Horus, but he wouldn't really fear Horus killing him since he is on his good side...

[Billuriye]

Fear is bred out of them. Not the sense of unease. Fear is debilitating and useless for an Astartes while unease may prove useful to recognize a threat.

[malika666]

I guess that's a bit of "rule of cool" going on there, just like Space Marines having a fully enclosed ribcage. Just another example of some of GW's writers not being specialized in these things...

[Conn Eremon]

I actually liked how Deliverance Lost approached this concept, that the Space Marines feel no fear. Quite simply, they don't. Fear is a biological process, and they lack it thanks to the modifications they underwent. But scary things still exist, and they can still remember what fear is. So what they are left with is a deep sense of unease and foreboding as they strive to cope with something they can't come to terms with, because their ability to do so was literally removed. So it's both a blessing and a curse. They are not affected by fear, but they can be affected by their lack of fear.

 

I'll also agree that the Alpharius vs. Horus meeting threw me off at first, too. But, in retrospect, it was actually kind of in character for all of them. Alpharius being deceptive is no surprise, as his deference was nothing more than a show. That the deception worked on Horus was also no surprise, because through out the Horus Heresy he is depicted as being more and more blinded by his own power and authority. Erebus is depicted as having a bit of disgust towards his own Primarch in the First Heretic, so I see no reason why he shouldn't be more disgusted by other Primarchs. Abaddon was as he is throughout the series in this encounter. Exceptionally arrogant, second to none outside of his own Primarch in his mind. There have been times where Loken's awe at some Primarchs was contrasted with Abaddon's dismissive attitude. And we know, as someone else pointed out, that when the Heresy is over his arrogance will push his self-image above the dead Horus.

 

So while yeah, that scene was kind of jarring and felt out of place, the truth is that this is simply how these people are, and really the only manner in which they would interact.

[Kodanshi]

^ Excellent points, that has really opened my eyes. Cheers!

[binary]

Finished it just before Christmas, and I have to say its one of my favourites after FOTE and Mechanicum.

 

Absolutely loved the insights into the primarch project, and the "retirement" homes were a nice touch.

I also think that the interplay between Alpharius/Horus/Erebus/Abaddon on the Vengeful Spirit was exactly how I would have done it.

Erebus cares only for the grand plan, Horus is blinded by sycophants and his own power, Abbadon is busy making sure everyone tows the line (and appears to be wound up by Erebus getting more of Horus' attention) and Alpharius is trying to juggle everything so that he (and his legion) come out on top after the Cabal's plan comes to fruition.

 

Now just waiting to see what ADB can do with my favourite WEs...

 

-Binary

[2000AD]

I disagree totally with the notion that Space Marines cant feel fear.....

 

After all a lot of the fluff/codex states that the sight of daemons is enough to send a space marine packing...... hence the reason why the Grey Knights were created - they truly are not capable of being afraid.

[Kodanshi]

I think it is mostly bred out of them, but obviously they retain some sense of it. The rest of it, as shown by others in this thread, is probably Space Marine Propaganda that humans believe in (one of the Ultramarines in Nick Kyme’s Fall of Damnos cries out: “Why do you humans over–venerate so much?” when one of them calls him an Angel :)), and that possibly even some of the Space Marines believe — until they encounter dæmons and suchlike!

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Just finished this last night. Here's my $0.02 on it, full of ramblings and personal opinions and bias, so expect it. :D

 

Was a pretty good book, all told, though I did have some issues with its execution. Some of them I shall outline below, with some spoiler tags just in case, though I imagine anyone in this thread has probably already read the novel and they may be unnecessary. So, to begin:

 

Anyone else get a little tickled by how Corax mentally wrung his hands worrying about how easy it would be for him to have been like Curze, and then turn right around and

murder an unarmed and imprisoned Word Bearers Chaplain, who didn't even know his Legion had turned and had been incommunicado with them for months, without a trial

? Afterwards, never touched upon again. It's all about punishing, punishing, punishing, and with the noted lack of crucifixions and disembowellments, I can't tell much difference between Corax and Curze from that point onward. There's only room for one Batman in Grimdarksville, Corax, and you aren't him so stop trying so hard to be. It's unseemly and makes you a caricature, a crow pretending to be a hawk.

 

Also, Thorpe really needs to learn how to write better characters for the ones he intends to set as the centerpieces of his work. The two-dimensionality of the Raven Guard was heavily apparent when held up to the three-dimensionality of the Alpha Legion throughout the novel; at about the halfway point, I cared more about what the Alpharius agent was doing than I did any of Corax's flashbacks or the Branne/Agapito tensionfest. This book really is an Alpha Legion book, masquerading as a Raven Guard one, that ultimately is a "let's beat up on the Word Bearers over and over again and

pee in the Cabal's Cheerios

" novel. Oh, and let's showcase just how d***ish Erebus and Abaddon are not once, but twice, while Horus sits brooding and cold. I guess they've discarded the old fluff that it was Horus who found Alpharius during the Crusade and that Alpharius held Horus in basically adoration, because these two guys acted like they could barely tolerate being in the same room, with the same amount of trust two strangers at a bus stop might share, rather than the relationship I had been expecting from them. Had it been any of the other Primarchs it would be understandable, Alpharius had very little contact or to do with his other brothers during the Crusade, but this was Horus, the one he was most close to.

 

Was a decent read, don't get me wrong, and certainly doesn't rank in the Bottom Five of the HH novels according to my chart of quality progression, but I was expecting a lot more cleverness and unanswered questions akin to Angels of Darkness out of Thorpe given that he had the two sneakiest Legions to work with, and outside of the Efritt Squad's bag of dirty tricks there just wasn't any real subterfuge to be found. Even the Das Boot-esque escape from the Istvaan system relied solely on a piece of technology contrivance rather than any sort of actual skill on the part of the Raven Guard. In a work that screamed and begged to be so full of dirty tricks, innuendoes, and subterfuges that it would leave us breathless by the time everything culminated, what we basically got is the literary equivalent of a blindfolded guy in a room trying to piece together an engine block by feel alone, while another guy, vision unimpaired, is standing behind him waiting for the perfect piece of timing to hit the blind guy on the head with a rake.

[Billuriye]

Anyone else get a little tickled by how Corax mentally wrung his hands worrying about how easy it would be for him to have been like Curze, and then turn right around and

murder an unarmed and imprisoned Word Bearers Chaplain, who didn't even know his Legion had turned and had been incommunicado with them for months, without a trial

? Afterwards, never touched upon again. It's all about punishing, punishing, punishing, and with the noted lack of crucifixions and disembowellments, I can't tell much difference between Corax and Curze from that point onward. There's only room for one Batman in Grimdarksville, Corax, and you aren't him so stop trying so hard to be. It's unseemly and makes you a caricature, a crow pretending to be a hawk.

 

I don't think he's trying to be Curze. It comes naturally to him. He

casually ripped someone's head off with his bare hands after a few moments of his birth.

And he shows the signs of mental instability too. He's Curze with good parentage.

[Kodanshi]

Khestra has some really good points there. It didn’t feel Raven Guardy enough, despite it centring on Corvus Corax. And I too liked the Alpha Legion character as well.

[Midwest]

This book really is an Alpha Legion book, masquerading as a Raven Guard one....

INCEPTION! ;) :P

[Hyperion]

I rather disagree with some of Khestra's points. I thought the difference in Horus's behaviour towards Alpharius was entirely in keeping with his change of personality following his decision to turn traitor. Horus now thinks of himself as better than everyone else, including the Emperor. Also, Horus and Alpharius may have been close, but Alpharius's behaviour was typically sneaky, which would have led Horus to mistrust him.

 

To me, Abaddon and Erebus were feeling untouchable, because they were standing next to Horus. They have appointed themselves adjutants to the 'new' Emperor, and so they consider themselves better than everyone else, including other Primarchs. Although they may have behaved a little differently if Horus hadn't been present! (Little kids feeling brave next to the big bully springs to mind).

 

Corax killing the Word Bearer Chaplain didn't seem out of keeping to me. Corax had just faced Lorgar, horrified by his treachery, and nearly died twice on Istvaan. Gav also describes Corax debating with himself whether he could become a tyrant like Angron (in Raven's Flight) and he was content that he couldn't. So Corax killing the WB was practicality and just punishment for an obvious traitor (as the WB was then described as having the taint of Chaos by Agapito). I didn't get the impression of Corax behaving like Kurze at any point in the story - but he did seem desperate to avenge his lost sons and take the fight back to the traitors.

 

I do think that the book showcased the Alpha Legion well - and they do pull of a good number of sneaky tricks on the RG. But I don't think the RG were shown badly or two-dimensionally - that they were not at the height of their capabilities was not surprising given the aftermath of Istvaan. The RG are generally portrayed as covert (with lightning attacks) but not necessarily as sneaky as the AL. I suspect that their failure to rebuild the Legion will lead to them having to rely even more on their guerrilla tactics from now on.

 

Oh, and the escape from the Istvaan system - yes it was reliant on their unique technology, but the book does describe Corax himself planning the escape route taken (and powering down the marines armour) and they still almost get caught. They didn't just turn the cloak on and then run away laughing.

 

Overall I really liked DL - my favourite HH novel to date, and I'm a big RG fan and don't feel let down at all.