Deliverance Lost

[Conn Eremon]

Well Corax has always been the loyalist Curze from what I've read about the two of them. The only major difference between the two is that Curze spent so much time alone in the dark with just himself for company that he had a multiple personality crisis. Corax on the other hand was raised by elderly slave labor with enlightened minds. Both saw corruption and injustice as their primary enemy, and both tried to stop it. Curze did it with his one man crusade, hence the Batman similarities, though really he's the Punisher mixed with Lex Luthor if anything. Corax, on the other hand, did it by leading the just into taking it back for themselves, like the many similarities tied between him and el Che during his flashback scenes. It makes it sound like if Corax hadn't been found that day, if he had, like Curze, relied solely on himself in his beginning years, he may very well have ended up becoming the exact same kind of person, and that kind of scared him.

 

But the biggest thing between the two of them is surrendering. Corax does not surrender, while Curze does nothing but surrender. Curze rolls over and gives in, making of himself a "self-vindicated" martyr, and lets the Night Haunter persona take over. Corax, when faced with similar inner turmoil, doesn't cease struggling against it, though he never seems to win either.

 

But then I thought the Alpharius scenes were exceptionally lack luster. I kept hearing the Pink Panther theme in my head when the agent would go "Ohlp! Tee hee, I'm a Raven Guard, think like a Raven Guard. *shifty eyes, shifty eyes, . . . shifty eyes*" and the entire success of the Alpha Legion plan didn't seem . . . plausible to me. It felt like it their entire section of the story continued because the book would have already ended if they failed. And I really don't like Saturday Morning Cartoon villains who are only successful because otherwise there wouldn't be a show, and that's how the Alpha Legion was portrayed to me.

 

But I think a lot of people are getting hung up over that Word Bearer.

They knew he was tainted. They don't tell you until right after he's murdered, but they tell you that he was tainted by Chaos and lying. Corax did not kill an innocent Word Bearer. Yes, he was angry, very angry. But both he and the other commander had been around enough Chaos-tainted Marines to be able to tell the difference, but it wasn't the sort of thing they could easily explain.

 

 

 

Another topic I'd like to bring up is

Corax's invisibility. In flashbacks he has said that he would sit in on enemy meetings and they wouldn't realize he was there. They'd walk past, and they would not notice. During the assault on the Perfect Fortress, the enemy commander sees his soldiers fire at nothing, and sees the shells impacting against empty space. Sees them get ripped apart and tossed around when nothing else is there. And then realizes the Primarch is standing over him before death.

 

So would you guys say that this confirms it? The invisibility trait that could never be attributed correctly to a primarch, that is. Apparently, it's Corvus Corax.

 

[Midwest]

I rather disagree with some of Khestra's points. I thought the difference in Horus's behaviour towards Alpharius was entirely in keeping with his change of personality following his decision to turn traitor. Horus now thinks of himself as better than everyone else, including the Emperor. Also, Horus and Alpharius may have been close, but Alpharius's behaviour was typically sneaky, which would have led Horus to mistrust him.

Doesn't Alpharius himself comment that Horus has gone from seeing himself as a 'first amongst equals' to 'first above the others'? I want to say that observation's made in DL, but I could be thinking of something else.

 

As for Horus' attitude, I got the sense it was specifically a combination of things regarding the situation:

 

A.) Horus' love of grandstanding becoming more and more arrogant. A lot of it seemed less personal against Alpharius than simply part of his devolving to theatrics.

B.) Horus' anxiety over Corax escaping the massacre.

C.) His realization that he had totally underestimated what the AL were willing/capable of (i.e. infiltrate other legions), which in turn leads to paranoia that the AL may have been doing the same to their 'brother' traitor legions.

 

Horus understands the importance of what he's doing, and has crafted a plan accordingly. The latter two above are showing him he's not in full control of things, as he realizes the AL intentionally let the RG escape due to point C, which also shows his own forces may be compromised.

 

As for Erebus and Abaddon, I feel Erebus sees himself as the true puppet-master of the whole Heresy, as I think he feels both Horus and Lorgar have danced to his tune, and that neither of them (tho maybe Lorgar finally after his scolding from the Emperor) understand the nature of the Warp and the Ruinous Powers as well as he does. As for Abaddon...unsure. I've been a bit disappointed in his portrayal so far, not bad but not as compelling a character (yet) as I hoped.

[Sgt.Sangha]

I have to agree with the above statement, Erebus seems more in control of the situation, whereas Abbadon will most likely shine after the heresy when hes leading his crusades

[DarKnight]

I rather disagree with some of Khestra's points. I thought the difference in Horus's behaviour towards Alpharius was entirely in keeping with his change of personality following his decision to turn traitor. Horus now thinks of himself as better than everyone else, including the Emperor. Also, Horus and Alpharius may have been close, but Alpharius's behaviour was typically sneaky, which would have led Horus to mistrust him.

Doesn't Alpharius himself comment that Horus has gone from seeing himself as a 'first amongst equals' to 'first above the others'? I want to say that observation's made in DL, but I could be thinking of something else.

As for Horus' attitude, I got the sense it was specifically a combination of things regarding the situation:

 

A) Horus' love of grandstanding becoming more and more arrogant. A lot of it seemed less personal against Alpharius than simply part of his devolving to theatrics.

:lol: Horus' anxiety over Corax escaping the massacre.

C) His realization that he had totally underestimated what the AL were willing/capable of (i.e. infiltrate other legions), which in turn leads to paranoia that the AL may have been doing the same to their 'brother' traitor legions.

 

Horus understands the importance of what he's doing, and has crafted a plan accordingly. The latter two above are showing him he's not in full control of things, as he realizes the AL intentionally let the RG escape due to point C, which also shows his own forces may be compromised.

 

As for Erebus and Abaddon, I feel Erebus sees himself as the true puppet-master of the whole Heresy, as I think he feels both Horus and Lorgar have danced to his tune, and that neither of them (tho maybe Lorgar finally after his scolding from the Emperor) understand the nature of the Warp and the Ruinous Powers as well as he does. As for Abaddon...unsure. I've been a bit disappointed in his portrayal so far, not bad but not as compelling a character (yet) as I hoped.

Erebus makes the same sort of remark to Argel Tal in the aftermath of the Dropsite Massacre when the Sons begin erecting their victory pyres.

[MadDoc]

Another topic I'd like to bring up is

Corax's invisibility. In flashbacks he has said that he would sit in on enemy meetings and they wouldn't realize he was there. They'd walk past, and they would not notice. During the assault on the Perfect Fortress, the enemy commander sees his soldiers fire at nothing, and sees the shells impacting against empty space. Sees them get ripped apart and tossed around when nothing else is there. And then realizes the Primarch is standing over him before death.

 

So would you guys say that this confirms it? The invisibility trait that could never be attributed correctly to a primarch, that is. Apparently, it's Corvus Corax.

The audiobook Raven's Flight already established that to be the case.

[Lord_Caerolion]

But I think a lot of people are getting hung up over that Word Bearer.

They knew he was tainted. They don't tell you until right after he's murdered, but they tell you that he was tainted by Chaos and lying. Corax did not kill an innocent Word Bearer. Yes, he was angry, very angry. But both he and the other commander had been around enough Chaos-tainted Marines to be able to tell the difference, but it wasn't the sort of thing they could easily explain.

 

Yes, they say that Corax claimed to have smelled the taint of Chaos on him, but as you yourself have admitted, Corax wasn't exactly thinking clearly. He claimed to smell a metaphysical corruption of the soul. On the other hand, he had no proof whatsoever that the Chaplain had had any contact whatsoever with his Legion, or any of the other things Corax accused him of.

 

I'm not denying that there's a possibility he was guilty, I'm just noting the strangeness of saying "he was guilty beyond all doubt! The mentally traumatised, unstable, and homicidally angry Primarch even claimed to smell the taint on his soul, which has no actual smell! That's all the proof we need!"

 

As I've stated before, one of the key points of the book is that Corax was consumed by his need for revenge, almost losing himself and endangering his Legion. He was most certainly not to be regarded as an unbiased judge regarding members of the Word Bearers.

[Conn Eremon]

But I think a lot of people are getting hung up over that Word Bearer.

They knew he was tainted. They don't tell you until right after he's murdered, but they tell you that he was tainted by Chaos and lying. Corax did not kill an innocent Word Bearer. Yes, he was angry, very angry. But both he and the other commander had been around enough Chaos-tainted Marines to be able to tell the difference, but it wasn't the sort of thing they could easily explain.

 

Yes, they say that Corax claimed to have smelled the taint of Chaos on him, but as you yourself have admitted, Corax wasn't exactly thinking clearly. He claimed to smell a metaphysical corruption of the soul. On the other hand, he had no proof whatsoever that the Chaplain had had any contact whatsoever with his Legion, or any of the other things Corax accused him of.

 

I'm not denying that there's a possibility he was guilty, I'm just noting the strangeness of saying "he was guilty beyond all doubt! The mentally traumatised, unstable, and homicidally angry Primarch even claimed to smell the taint on his soul, which has no actual smell! That's all the proof we need!"

 

As I've stated before, one of the key points of the book is that Corax was consumed by his need for revenge, almost losing himself and endangering his Legion. He was most certainly not to be regarded as an unbiased judge regarding members of the Word Bearers.

 

One of the commanders sensed the same thing, and there was no anger-fueled lack of thinking there. I took their inability to fully define it as meaning it's not actually a smell, just a sort of sixth sense they picked up on Isstvan. Where they were surrounded by Word Bearers among others. Word Bearers who were beginning to become more and more tainted. It's insinuating that those who were there, Corax especially, began to tell the difference between a Marine and a Marine who is . . . off. Something undefinable to those who don't share in the capacity, but something that is certainly not new to 40k, this sort of sense. Yes, Corax was blind in his anger, and he acted out of it, but in this case the anger was not misplaced or misguided.

 

Though, I'm not necessarily trying to say he was guilty beyond all doubt either, just that saying Corax killed an 'innocent Word Bearer' is grossly unfounded in the book, when all evidence points at him having some sort of chaos taint, with no real reason to doubt it outside of the killer being angry at the time. There is always the possibility that it was tied into the same thing going on with nearly every other Legion showed in the Horus Heresy so far, that those Terran-born and those homeworld-born are in some way divided. This Word Bearer may very well have been a Terran-born who wasn't part of the whole super-religious, easiest to fall craze that swept his Legion. But that would be unfounded speculation, but not without merit.

 

EDIT: Thanks, MadDoc. I have an issue with audiobooks (not the idea or practice of them, just my ability to enjoy them), so I had not known that tidbit of information.

[Mattias]

I enjoyed the book overall and thought that it was one of the better books in the series but even so I felt that the Alpha Legion's success came about as a result of contrived stupidity on the part their opponents, see below;

 

 

1) Considering a battle barge with reflex shields had a hard time remaining unnoticed in the Istvaan system how did the Alpha Legion manage to sneak a battle barge without that technology into the Deliverance system considering its documented high level of technology and the defense/monitoring systems usually associated with a Legion Homeworld?

 

2) Given that the area around Ravendelve was being monitored from orbit how were the Thunderhawks launched from the Beta to attack Ravendelve not detected and if they were why did no-one question the appearance of two additional Thunderhawks?

 

3) How were Titans & surface forces able to move into position to attack the site undetected, they are rather large?

 

4) Given that the Custodians were sent to the Deliverance system with the sole purpose of protecting the genetic material from falling into the wrong hands why were none of them guarding it at the Ravendelve site?

 

5) Again given that the Raven Guard had been told to destroy the genetic material rather than let it be captured why were there no Raven Guard assigned to guard the Infirmary, why were there no explosives in place to destroy it forcing the Apothecary to leave and why was the Apothecary unable to requisition any Raven Guard to protect it given that he had just received a direct order from the Primarch to do so?

 

6) Why site the gene-lab on Kiavahr in the first place which is a busy Hive World which still has insurrectionist elements as opposed to the well defended and completely loyal Deliverance, hmmm busy, populous hive world vs quiet, desolate moon? Lets face it the abnormal level of aerial traffic to Ravendelve and increased security wasn't exactly discrete, compared to say the Ravenspire where only the Raven Guard know what is happening.

 

7) When the initial attack on Ravendelve occurred why was the genetic material not relocated to a more secure facility, why did no-one wonder why the Tech Guild chose the Ravendelve as their target?

 

8) Given the importance placed on the genetic material why when the breach of security in the infirmary was detected and reported to Branne did he not take more steps to investigate and/or report it to Corax? Branne your fellow commander has accessed the secret weapon technology that could effect the outcome of the war, modified the files and deleted his tracks, should you maybe report that.....nahh.

 

9) Considering the number of encrypted signals that were detected, some of which were inside the Raven Guards own transmissions why was this security breach not reported more highly or investigated more seriously given the nature of the secret they were protecting?

 

 

It just seems that the only way that the Alpha Legion could have been successful is if the genetic material was left unguarded so the author engineered a way for this to conveniently happen in spite of how stupid it would be to leave the most powerful weapon you have unguarded in a time of civil war.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Though, I'm not necessarily trying to say he was guilty beyond all doubt either, just that saying Corax killed an 'innocent Word Bearer' is grossly unfounded in the book, when all evidence points at him having some sort of chaos taint, with no real reason to doubt it outside of the killer being angry at the time. There is always the possibility that it was tied into the same thing going on with nearly every other Legion showed in the Horus Heresy so far, that those Terran-born and those homeworld-born are in some way divided. This Word Bearer may very well have been a Terran-born who wasn't part of the whole super-religious, easiest to fall craze that swept his Legion. But that would be unfounded speculation, but not without merit.

 

Just as it was unfounded speculation that attributed guilt, because the "evidence of Chaos taint" the book presents isn't evidence at all. Evidence isn't what killed that Word Bearer, revenge did, manifested by someone who acted purely on emotional response to the only condition that mattered to them at the time: this was a Word Bearer. Corax didn't see him as an individual, didn't judge him as an individual, and killed him without cause beyond "I have a feeling". That's called murder, which Corax is guilty of, and THAT actually has evidence to back it up, namely a body. No evidence was presented to even remotely suggest there was a "taint" to this guy, other than the words of his murderer and the murderer's lapdog who just brushed it off as it being a "Primarch thing".

[Conn Eremon]

Though, I'm not necessarily trying to say he was guilty beyond all doubt either, just that saying Corax killed an 'innocent Word Bearer' is grossly unfounded in the book, when all evidence points at him having some sort of chaos taint, with no real reason to doubt it outside of the killer being angry at the time. There is always the possibility that it was tied into the same thing going on with nearly every other Legion showed in the Horus Heresy so far, that those Terran-born and those homeworld-born are in some way divided. This Word Bearer may very well have been a Terran-born who wasn't part of the whole super-religious, easiest to fall craze that swept his Legion. But that would be unfounded speculation, but not without merit.

 

Just as it was unfounded speculation that attributed guilt, because the "evidence of Chaos taint" the book presents isn't evidence at all. Evidence isn't what killed that Word Bearer, revenge did, manifested by someone who acted purely on emotional response to the only condition that mattered to them at the time: this was a Word Bearer. Corax didn't see him as an individual, didn't judge him as an individual, and killed him without cause beyond "I have a feeling". That's called murder, which Corax is guilty of, and THAT actually has evidence to back it up, namely a body. No evidence was presented to even remotely suggest there was a "taint" to this guy, other than the words of his murderer and the murderer's lapdog who just brushed it off as it being a "Primarch thing".

 

What you say is mostly true, and I'm not debating it. Corax's actions were very much that of a murderer, not an executioner.

 

But Corax's actions as a murderer does not itself prove the Word Bearer's innocence. Being murdered does not make one innocent. Skeptical though the evidence may be, all we do have is the word of two against one. Corax was insistent it's true, and despite his state we have no reason to not believe him, especially when another Marine admits to himself that he sensed the same thing, though he muddies it by lying to the other Marine that it might just be a "Primarch thing."

 

That is all we have at this point.

[Kodanshi]

One of the commanders sensed the same thing, and there was no anger-fueled lack of thinking there.

He didn’t, actually. I’ve not finished reading the book (having some problems with leaks at my house, so trying to get that fixed), but I came across that earlier today. The other chap, the one who had been on Isstvan, KNOWS what Corax is talking about when he speaks of the smell of corruption, but nothing in that section states that he smelt it too.

 

Came across some anomalies:

 

1) As mentioned above, how did the Alpha hide a barge under the noses of the Raven Guard?

 

2) How did the Apothecary showing

‘Alpharius’

the way inside the training building claim not to remember the way very well? I thought all Space Marines had an eidetic memory?

 

3) This one doesn’t bother me too much, but why do the numbers not add up when it comes to converting between Deliverance /Kiavahran years and Terran years? The praefactor’s niece is aged 6, which works out at 17 years. This comes to 2.83 when converting to Terran years. When then describing his father, he claims the 17–year old is in his late 50s in Terran years. Yet 17 × 2.83 is just over 48.

[Lord_Caerolion]

What you say is mostly true, and I'm not debating it. Corax's actions were very much that of a murderer, not an executioner.

 

But Corax's actions as a murderer does not itself prove the Word Bearer's innocence. Being murdered does not make one innocent. Skeptical though the evidence may be, all we do have is the word of two against one. Corax was insistent it's true, and despite his state we have no reason to not believe him, especially when another Marine admits to himself that he sensed the same thing, though he muddies it by lying to the other Marine that it might just be a "Primarch thing."

 

That is all we have at this point.

 

No, we don't have two against one. We've got Corax, who's hardly a stable judge, and one of his men, who says "well, he must have smelled Chaos on him". At no point does he say that he smelled the same thing. He merely said "I guess Corax must have been correct, because he's a Primarch".

 

We're not saying that being murdered meant he was innocent, we're not saying that at all, and you seem to be deliberately missing the point. We're simply saying that taking the words of an unstable, potentially homicidal Primarch making spurious claims of smelling something with no smell isn't exactly something that would stand up in court. No matter how much Corax insists it's true, it is entirely possible, and pretty much the theme of the novel regarding Corax, that at this point in time he'd do anything to get revenge against the Traitor Legions, regardless of the cost. His men showed doubt of his actions, because they had no proof whatsoever that he'd been in contact with his Legion. It should be even more telling that Corax doesn't even bother to look for any proof. His anger was consuming him.

[Conn Eremon]

If all I said was that declaring the Word Bearer as an innocent was looking more into it than was actually shown in the book, but then the opposition continues to bring up how Corax was a homicidal lunatic as a counter argument, then it's not wrong for me to assume you're insinuating the Primarch's state as evidence for the Word Bearer's innocence. Otherwise, why bring it up?

 

But anyways:

 

Agapito spent several minutes looking at Khoura’s corpse after Solaro had left, thinking about what the primarch had said. Solaro was indeed blind to it, perhaps had not seen the taint, but Agapito knew what Corax had referred to. The taint had a name, a name he had heard whispered for the first time on Isstvan: Chaos.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think we're dragging this a little off-topic. I definitely agree there's a possibility he was corrupt, and some parts do seem to indicate that, others indicate the opposite. I don't think we're going to persuade one another any time soon, so we'll agree to disagree?

[Hephaesteus]

Overall I enjoyed the book, I did feel the first half was better than the second however. It seemed the concept was better than the execution to me.

 

I think Mattias makes several execellent points, though I had to wait until I have my laptop on: (off topic) I can't seem to see through spoiler text on my fruit-branded-based-mobile-devices. Anyone have any idea how to get around that? (on topic): I remember in Legion the Alpha's being able to walk though trip wires and security devices without setting them off. surely it would have been better to employ some of those freaky skills rather than just being able to walk into an unguarded room?

 

@ Cormac Airt:

wasn't Solaro Alpha legion? so his opinion is not to be trusted?

 

 

Cheers,

 

Hephaesteus

[TennisBall]

I realise Corax is unlikely to be aware of this but aren't Word Bearer chaplains drawn from the chaos priesthood of their planet. Isn't that how Erebus and co were tainted in the first place?

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, they were drawn from the most loyal amongst the Legion. Erebus and Kor Phaeron were tainted, but that's because they were raised from birth amongst the original church on their planet. Other Chaplains would have been recruited from after Lorgar had replaced that with Emperor-worship.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

No, they were drawn from the most loyal amongst the Legion. Erebus and Kor Phaeron were tainted, but that's because they were raised from birth amongst the original church on their planet. Other Chaplains would have been recruited from after Lorgar had replaced that with Emperor-worship.

 

well, we do know that Kor Phaeron left elements of the Old Beliefs on the various words taken by the Word Bearers, so i wouldnt find it impossible to believe that the Chaplainacy of the Word Bearers had their own, twisted version of faith prior to the "rebirth".

 

in fact, doing it this way would have paved they way for the re-intergration of the Old Gods in the Word Bearers belief structure.

 

WLK

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except we know they didn't, because one of the key points of First Heretic is that the Legion had wiped all trace of the previous religion from itself, with the exception of Erebus, Kor Phaeron, and the seeds allowed to remain on conquered worlds. The Chaplains weren't told "turn to sermon 666 now", they had an entirely new book written for them. Previously, they preached purely from the works of Lorgar, who most certainly didn't harbour any lingering traces of Chaos-worship.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Except we know they didn't, because one of the key points of First Heretic is that the Legion had wiped all trace of the previous religion from itself, with the exception of Erebus, Kor Phaeron, and the seeds allowed to remain on conquered worlds. The Chaplains weren't told "turn to sermon 666 now", they had an entirely new book written for them. Previously, they preached purely from the works of Lorgar, who most certainly didn't harbour any lingering traces of Chaos-worship.

 

Very true, as i havent read deliverance lost yet, and was merely expressing guess work, does the book tell how long the word bearer served? how long has he been excluded from his brothers?

 

WLK

[Conn Eremon]

@ Cormac Airt:

wasn't Solaro Alpha legion? so his opinion is not to be trusted?

 

True, but it was Agapito who sensed the taint alongside his primarch. Solaro was the one out of those three who didn't understand what Corax meant.

 

@WLK: It's all very hard to tell. Corvus doesn't become Corax, as the world's, er moon's, savior until a girl who was only three or so years old when he was first discovered had become a teenager. More than a decade, then. But he's described as aging two to three times as fast as she did, since they were the same age when he was discovered. At least until adulthood, anyways. Vulkan, on the other hand, was an adult nearly a year upon discovery as a child, according to Promethean Sun, which is much, much faster than Corax's growth. Horus was found as a child by the Emperor, since it's described that he was raised by the Emperor in a way none of the others enjoyed. But then they were all lost to the warp. Who knows whether they were released at same time or not? Maybe the further out they were thrown, the longer they were stuck in the warp. Or maybe there was some time-rapery going on, since it's Chaos after all. But then, these are all written by different authors, so it could all be just because of poor communication between on this point.

 

All we know is that they arose to some form of authority and power in their adopted home, and that Horus was the first Primarch found while Alpharius was the last. Other than that, all we know is who was with whom upon discovery. Magnus was there with Lorgar is the only one I can think of. Well, Horus was the one who met Alpharius, but that doesn't help figure out the order at all. But a lot of them were found just by the Emperor and/or their personal legion. Russ and Vulkan were met by a stranger who ends up being the Emperor, while the Lion's own legion makes first contact, after which the Emperor comes alone. So where they fall in is kind of hard to tell.

 

I would love it, however, if enough of us were able to pull together enough references to figure out the timeline of the discovery of the Primarchs.

[TennisBall]

Except we know they didn't, because one of the key points of First Heretic is that the Legion had wiped all trace of the previous religion from itself, with the exception of Erebus, Kor Phaeron, and the seeds allowed to remain on conquered worlds. The Chaplains weren't told "turn to sermon 666 now", they had an entirely new book written for them. Previously, they preached purely from the works of Lorgar, who most certainly didn't harbour any lingering traces of Chaos-worship.

 

Very true, as i havent read deliverance lost yet, and was merely expressing guess work, does the book tell how long the word bearer served? how long has he been excluded from his brothers?

 

WLK

 

I think that is key, how long he was away that is. The chaplaincy would have been the first to be converted to chaos worship afterall and the rest of the legion from there. There'd have been years for the new order to take root, long before the heresy itself.

[Midwest]

Very true, as i havent read deliverance lost yet, and was merely expressing guess work, does the book tell how long the word bearer served? how long has he been excluded from his brothers?

 

WLK

I don't have the book on me - friend's reading it - but it was roughly 2-3 years. It does state the actual time, but I can't recall it - I only know it was fairly short, only a few years.

 

If it helps to recall, when Corax questions the Chaplain on his reasons for being there - implying he's been sent to spy - the Chaplain responds that Corax knows very well he's there per orders of the Emperor to enforce the Nikaea Decree and ensure that the RG Librarians are being folded back into the battle-brothers and that they are not using their powers. It's not super detailed, but the scene implies that the Legions weren't trusted to enforce the decree completely on their own, and that some sort of system was used in which each Legion had Chaplains from one or more other legions brought in to ensure compliance. It doesn't really go into much detail in terms of how that worked, or how many - it's really only mentioned in the Chaplain's retort to Corax' insinuations about why he's there - but it seemed to imply that it wasn't just WB chaplains being used, and that it wasn't only the RG being monitored.

 

Unfortunately, I can't recall how close in the timeline DL takes place regarding the Council of Nikaea. If anyone has an idea of when that takes place in relation to Istvaan, you can ballpark how long the Chaplain has been there, because he would have been sent fairly shortly after the Council, and is murdered/executed roughly six months to a year after Istvaan (I can't recall the dates for DL, but it took them several months to get off Istvaan, weeks or maybe months to get out of the system, I think a quarter to a half year to get to Terra, and then however long they spent on Terra and then getting from Terra back to Deliverance.)

 

As for the issue of Corax sensing Chaos corruption, I think it's BS and meant to be seen as BS. Unless GM is guilty of being a lazy writer, this is a Primarch who failed to detect that an untold number of his Marines, including at least one Commander, were Alpha Legionnaires, and while the AL aren't necessarily gung-ho Chaos Worshippers at this point, I fail to see how they'd be much less 'corrupted' than a Word Bearer Chaplain who presumably wasn't at Istvaan and may have very well been ignorant of his Primarch's shift in worship.

 

I don't think the notion of Corax 'smelling' his guilt is meant to be taken literal. IIRC, within the context of the scene it's meant to indicate the obsessive rage and desire for revenge brewing in Corax - his impulsive killing of the Chaplain contrasts his relentlessly methodical approach to every other event in the book, be it figuring out traps or preparing for battle - mixed with his shame at failing to kill his traitor brothers. It's also, I think, meant to highlight the book's early theme that Istvaan has separated the RG into those who were there and those who were not, with Corax's charge that he could sense the Chaplain's guilt meant to highlight that divide by implying the Istvaan veterans had been exposed to something that the non-vets were still ignorant about.

[xa0s]

Well, it's almost 3 in the morning... I just finished D.L. book.

 

I can safely say it's giving me an itch to try start out R.G. army... and I truly liked the portrayal of Corvus Corax overall. I can see Gav's writing has mature quite a bit over time.

 

The only thing that I did not like was how the interaction was executed between Horus and his minions with Alpharius, chaos-wise. IMO, ADB did it extremely well with the interaction of the chaos with Alpharius in The Aurelian.

 

However, I would give this book a solid 8 out of 10, because Gav did pretty well in this particular book. Thumbs up.

[Lord_Caerolion]

True, but it was Agapito who sensed the taint alongside his primarch. Solaro was the one out of those three who didn't understand what Corax meant.

 

Gaah! No he didn't! He stated that he witnessed the corruption on Istvaan, not that he smelled it, or even saw in that same Marine like Corax did! Agapito senses nothing, he just accepts that his Primarch did! Two entirely different things!