Billuriye Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Agapito sensing taint is improbable. Even Corax's sensing is shaky at best. In TFH Custodians are treated by Daemon infested Astartes every step and they can't sense nill. In Aurelian only Lorgar and Magnus were able to tell something is wrong with Fulgrim and Corax is no way a psyker of their league nor attuned with Chaos. So there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2959207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Carmine Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 EDIT: Thanks, MadDoc. I have an issue with audiobooks (not the idea or practice of them, just my ability to enjoy them), so I had not known that tidbit of information. Ravens Flight is an audiodrama, which I admit makes me sound like I'm being pedantic. :D Instead of being like Horus Rising, or the Age of Darkness audiobooks where it is the just someone reading the story and giving voices to the characters dialogue, Ravens Flight is more like a radio play with sound effects and score. Admittidly this may make no difference to your enjoyment of it as a way of telling a story, but it is a distinction worth bringing up in case it would. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2959253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Unless GM is guilty of being a lazy writer, this is a Primarch who failed to detect that an untold number of his Marines, including at least one Commander, were Alpha Legionnaires, and while the AL aren't necessarily gung-ho Chaos Worshippers at this point, I fail to see how they'd be much less 'corrupted' than a Word Bearer Chaplain who presumably wasn't at Istvaan and may have very well been ignorant of his Primarch's shift in worship. Not responding to the rest because I agree with it, not simply ignoring it. Just to this, all I have to say is at this point Alpha Legion have zero contact with Chaos. They're aware of its existence, but that is all. If the taint is a real thing, there is no reason why the Alpha Legion would have anything like it upon them to be sensed. If the taint is a false thing, then there is no reason to suspect them. Granted, the entire Alpha Legion deception was on particularly shifty ground to begin with. @Lord_Caerolion: You bring mention of half of the quote I last posted while ignoring the other half? You know what, at this point you've deliberated and debated a minor point in my original post, the possible chaos taint, while ignoring my original point and intent, that the innocence of the Word Bearer Chaplain is in no way an assured thing. The argument we have had, of which I am as much to blame for, no longer holds much resemblance to my original post, and I have no further desire to continue it. Consider it closed on my end from now on. @Jimmy Carmine: Admittedly that does make it sound better, and as far as I know there is no written version of that book out there, is there? But, I'm the kind of guy who puts on subtitles for every thing, because in all cases in which I can make such a choice I would rather read than listen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2959487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Unless GM is guilty of being a lazy writer, this is a Primarch who failed to detect that an untold number of his Marines, including at least one Commander, were Alpha Legionnaires, and while the AL aren't necessarily gung-ho Chaos Worshippers at this point, I fail to see how they'd be much less 'corrupted' than a Word Bearer Chaplain who presumably wasn't at Istvaan and may have very well been ignorant of his Primarch's shift in worship. Not responding to the rest because I agree with it, not simply ignoring it. Just to this, all I have to say is at this point Alpha Legion have zero contact with Chaos. They're aware of its existence, but that is all. If the taint is a real thing, there is no reason why the Alpha Legion would have anything like it upon them to be sensed. If the taint is a false thing, then there is no reason to suspect them. Granted, the entire Alpha Legion deception was on particularly shifty ground to begin with. I agree they're not heavy into Chaos, but here's my logic: 1. The Word Bearer has been on Deliverance for around 2-3 years. He's been away from his legion, and even if he *is* corrupt and reading infernal tomes when no one's looking, he's likely not summoning daemons or wielding possessed weapons. 2. The AL operatives, OTOH, have been shoulder to shoulder with several traitor legions that may or may not be indulging in Chaos - remember, Corax' defense is essentially that the Chaplain 'smelled' the same as what was on Istvaan - and (IMO) just as important, these operatives are some other Primarch's sons, wearing the faces of dead men, and have had extensive psyker exposure as part of the process of mind-wiping their old selves and adapting the new personas. Fundamentally, for the WB scene to be literally true, it implies (to me) that Corax can 'smell' that the Chaplain has read Erebus' Guide to Chaos For Primarchs - A Guide For the Rest of Us but couldn't detect that one of his own commanders - with whom he spent a heckuva lot more time than 2 minutes in a cell - who would have been saturated with the taint of Istvaan and on top of that has his brain likely still whiffing of sorcery and whose face is attached to a different body. And a primarch who theoretically should be especially good at detection and noticing the small details? It just seems really hard to believe that any corruption in the Chaplain - short of tentacles and an 8-point star carved in his forehead - could have been appreciably more noticeable than what should have been present in the AL operatives. For me it just doesn't compute right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2959498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributis Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I haven't read the book yet, but unless it specifically says that that the AL recently sneaked in amongst the RG, maybe they've been operating as deep cover "insurance" for many, many years? :wallbash: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2959711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I haven't read the book yet, but unless it specifically says that that the AL recently sneaked in amongst the RG, maybe they've been operating as deep cover "insurance" for many, many years? :lol: It’s possible, but they make it pretty specific that it’s post–Isstvan V massacre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2959891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I haven't read the book yet, but unless it specifically says that that the AL recently sneaked in amongst the RG, maybe they've been operating as deep cover "insurance" for many, many years? :lol: The book specifically states that the AL operatives were given the faces of dead RG on Istvaan and were able to infiltrate the legion using the complete chaos and confusion surrounding the retreat off planet and subsequent reorganizing of the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2959895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 But somehow the Raven Guard figured out about the traitors amongst their midst whilst being near Terra and the Phalanx (which for some reason the Raven Guard can know nothing about since they didn't fight alongside the Imperial Fists...as if it's such a secret...). You would assume that the Adeptus Custodes would figure this out as well, if it is purely based on the argument the Raven Guard later present. Odd that nobody on Terra is giving Corax and his Legion a hard time about it, even odder that the Raven Guard allow these infiltrators to keep doing their thing for so long... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2960548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Sangha Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 you know what I enjoyed about the book the most, the scene where the alpha legionnaire uses the override code Peta Orpheus Epsilon = POE the famous author that wrote about the raven, and where the line nevermore comes from. Aside from that id like to offer my 2cents on the word bearer scene. Perhaps the author was trying to shed light on an earlier topic in the book where Corax was concerned that he could have been like night haunter. Perhaps this was a moment where he did something that NH would have done, like a moment where he slipped the leash, and then just says he smelled chaos. a need for revenge to give into his darker side like Cruze did. After all he has those thoughts churning in his head about how similar they are except for the part of where they were raised. Its also interesting to note that Solaro was the one to speak up about proving innocence. with out giving away spoilers but it was SOLARO WHO SPOKE UP, something funny about the young captain no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2960881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 50 years....... The Word Bearers were turned from the Emperor 50 years before Istvaan.... And then I'm pretty sure it was explicitly said that Lorgar's legion was cleansed from within well before Istvaan as well... And all the implications that the "flaw" of the WB is their extreme loyalty to Lorgar..... And the chaplains were the marines dedicated to spreading the new word... Not saying Corax didn't murder the dude, but I find it laughable that a WB Chaplain of all marines wasn't corrupted. I'll offer up more thoughts when I finish the book... EDIT: spelling and clarification Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2961586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 i'll post a longer reply later, but have to say this now: i am sick and tired of the alpha legion being the trolls of the 30k storyline. if they dont get their comeuppance soon i'm going to scream. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2961593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Just finished DL and it was Gav's most solid work in my mind. The word choice was polished, the plot was good, and Corax shined. People who have been itching to have a bit more RG stuff and specifically Primarch Corax related background will be very pleased. I thought the Poe references were subtle, Masque of the Red Death and System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Fether immediately came to mind! I hope the 'Nevermore' goes out with a Descent into the Maelstrom :D That would make me extremely extremely happy face! Anyways, this book is very good; the ending was a bit open but I think Gav will get another crack to finish it out. Gav does an EXCELLENT job of creating a duality in a character or organization and this tale is no different. Corax was much darker and conflicted than I expected and the historical patterning of the revolutionary leader angle was chill like milk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2961621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok, So I'm am really really annoyed at the 98% victory of the Alpha Legion in this story. It's absurd and I feel Gav had to make the RG look incompetent in order to make the AL look so much better. It's just frustrating that this happened. If the AL had disrupted the project while losing out on getting the material then I would have felt a lot better, but as it is the AL just straight up win so much more than they lose... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2966657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Ok, So I'm am really really annoyed at the 98% victory of the Alpha Legion in this story. It's absurd and I feel Gav had to make the RG look incompetent in order to make the AL look so much better. It's just frustrating that this happened. If the AL had disrupted the project while losing out on getting the material then I would have felt a lot better, but as it is the AL just straight up win so much more than they lose... Not really, though. They win, sure, as in saying that the Alphas foiled Corax's plans and get away with theft, but look at the cost. With the exception of Omegon, every Alpha Legionnaire committed to the Deliverance operation was killed. For the last legion, one with the least number of Marines out of all of the Legions, those kind of losses are very bad -- especially considering that the Marines so committed are likely to be among the best the Legion has. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2967507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Ok, So I'm am really really annoyed at the 98% victory of the Alpha Legion in this story. It's absurd and I feel Gav had to make the RG look incompetent in order to make the AL look so much better. It's just frustrating that this happened. If the AL had disrupted the project while losing out on getting the material then I would have felt a lot better, but as it is the AL just straight up win so much more than they lose... Not really, though. They win, sure, as in saying that the Alphas foiled Corax's plans and get away with theft, but look at the cost. With the exception of Omegon, every Alpha Legionnaire committed to the Deliverance operation was killed. For the last legion, one with the least number of Marines out of all of the Legions, those kind of losses are very bad -- especially considering that the Marines so committed are likely to be among the best the Legion has. which would be a terrible loss...if they didnt get the tech needed to mass produce marines. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2967557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm also not so sure about the Alpha Legion being one of the smallest Legions. I don't recall reading anything regarding their size. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2967611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm also not so sure about the Alpha Legion being one of the smallest Legions. I don't recall reading anything regarding their size. They were the last founded, towards the end of the 200-year Crusade; they'd only been around a couple of decades. They haven't had the time to build up to the tens of thousands that the other, older Legions have. It's an assumption on my part, sure, but I think it fits. Edit: Oh, and @WLK: Sure, they can make up the losses in numbers, but its the loss in experience and skill that I'd be worried about. Like I said, they were likely to be the best the Legion had -- they'd be operating entirely independently of any support, not knowing how many other operatives there were with them (if any), they would need to be smart enough and have the mental agility to fit into an alien environment without giving anything away, and would be so far behind enemy lines that the possibility of extraction in the event of early detection would be absolutely nil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2967827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hmm, time isn't the only factor here. If that were the case the Sons of Horus would have been the largest legion. I would imagine that most Legions numbered around the 60-80 thousand Marines. Some were smaller, others were larger. Also note that the Alpha Legion also had many Terran marines. So perhaps they were already a large Legion during those days. But we're geting off topic here :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2967839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 which would be a terrible loss...if they didnt get the tech needed to mass produce marines. WLK Tech tainted with Daemon blood. I see this as a loss. Makes since to me how they are so corrupted in 40k. All theother Legions also who got help for Bile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2968004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 which would be a terrible loss...if they didnt get the tech needed to mass produce marines. WLK Tech tainted with Daemon blood. I see this as a loss. Makes since to me how they are so corrupted in 40k. All theother Legions also who got help for Bile. Which Alpharius has the cure for, which he didn't pass along to Fabius Bile. He gave the others a tainted sample, yet kept some for himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2968106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 which would be a terrible loss...if they didnt get the tech needed to mass produce marines. WLK Tech tainted with Daemon blood. I see this as a loss. Makes since to me how they are so corrupted in 40k. All theother Legions also who got help for Bile. Tech tainted with demon blood that can easily be extracted according to the magos who made it. One thing that would really have been nice was something mentioning the fact that the gene-tech was missing. They made such a big deal about protecting it earlier, yet the AL saunter off with it and no one says anything. The AL didn't replace the vial when they stole it. Obviously it wasn't recovered by the RG..... So........ And? Nothing, it's not even mentioned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2968108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Which Alpharius has the cure for, which he didn't pass along to Fabius Bile. He gave the others a tainted sample, yet kept some for himself. Tech tainted with demon blood that can easily be extracted according to the magos who made it. Yeh right. I'm sure it is REAL EASY to remove the taint of a Daemon. And i bet the magos was a real trust worthy kind of guy who only tells the truth. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2968148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Which Alpharius has the cure for, which he didn't pass along to Fabius Bile. He gave the others a tainted sample, yet kept some for himself. Tech tainted with demon blood that can easily be extracted according to the magos who made it. Yeh right. I'm sure it is REAL EASY to remove the taint of a Daemon. And i bet the magos was a real trust worth kind of guy who only tells the truth. ;) Only the second batch was tainted. the first batch worked relatively fine. With the knowledge they posses, and the tools they now posses, they pretty much win. infact, the book should have just been called "Alpha Legion: Showing Corax what sneaky really is." and your right, they lost a few operatives, and they knowledge they posses. its a real shame they dont have a legion full of operatives, completely unknown recruiting practices and worlds already, and the tech to crank out more marines in a short amount of time... if the Heresy lasted 7 years, and the RG were able to create 250 marines a week (according to page 345), lets say the events in Deliverance Lost take up a year, getting the tech and moving to a AL secure location. that leaves 6 years of HH time making Marines...if the AL dont magically find a way to create more. (which being the masters of everything they have been shown as so far, i wouldnt be very suprised if they create primarchs instead of marines...dont read that last sentence Gav) they would have 13,000 Marines a year, and another 78,000 Marins by the end of the Heresy...well game over guys. they have the skills, they have the bodies, all they need is the armor (which i doubt they have any problem in getting) and they can actually grow in a conflict that has nearly everybody else losing Marines. WLK WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2968187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqatone Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I just finished reading it earlier. A good book but got progressively weaker as it went on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2968225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hehe agreed Aqatone; thought he got a bit mired in the AL plotting but it finished well enough and was his best work! Much farther along in craft than in my Gav fave Angels of Darkness Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243768-deliverance-lost/page/4/#findComment-2968925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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