Deliverance Lost

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I've tried.. Four?.. Times to read it, but I really can't force myself onward.

 

It's just weak, quite frankly, in my opinion and even worse than Descent of Angels.

[Nikt208]

Just finished Deliverance Lost last night. I have to admit, whilst I did enjoy large parts of it, I was ultimately disappointed. There was so much potential with this story, which at points Gav seemed to realise, but never ended up exploring, or at least not to my satisfaction. It was good to see Corax in more depth, but I would have liked a little more exploration of the Raven Guard themselves, especially dealing with the rift between Istvaan vets and non-vets, which was hinted at early on in the story. Aside from Corax I really felt nothing for any of the characters. The whole Agapito traitor bluff was obvious, and as has been mentioned here before, when it was revealed to be 'the other commander' I just didn't care. Gav hadn't spent any time building up an inherent trust in that commander for me to care about his traitorous intent. The flash backs to Corax's youth and the uprisings were good though. The Imperial Fists and Custodes are quite literally there for the sake of cameo appearances, their interactions are only briefly explored (although I did like the IF and RG discussing who would kill Horus).

 

The Alpha Legion were portrayed horribly, and I hope the next author to tackle them plays it closer to Dan's depiction. As mentioned before on this thread, they weren't turned into the typical moustache twirling bad guys, but the intellect and respect for their operatives was clearly abandoned (although some could say that that was to show that they will go to any lengths to achieve their objective). The attitude of Omegon was questionable at best, and after the lengthy build up to the guild interaction it is simply swept under the carpet with barely even a line to explain the supposed planetary uprising and civil war caused by 'The Order of the Dragon'. The final act against the Cabal just makes no sense, and the gullibility of the legion to their Primarch's inch deep explanation is just unbelievable for a legion that prides itself on intellect. Although I did like the moment when 'Alpharius' experienced Stockholm Syndrome, but again this was just abandoned when the time came for it to make a difference.

 

On a quick side note, I am really getting tired of Word Bearers being the 'rent a bad guy when you need one to embarrass/kill' , this happened twice in the book, and I only hope Dan follows ADB in portraying them as the lethal bad asses they are meant to be, not the incompetent jokes everyone uses them for.

 

The battles were, apart from the first Raptor engagement, appalling. The attack on Ravendelve and the final battle were just rushed and felt somewhat lacking. The ending was....'meh', and as much as I hate to use that word its all I can really use to describe it. Unlike the other books which leave either cliff-hangers of tantalising threads for both the traitors (which to some extent existed here), I was left feeling no anticipation for my next Raven Guard encounter, which to be honest I felt before this book (as they are really a secondary or even tertiary legion in terms of canon importance). That ultimately is my biggest gripe with this book. It was a perfect opportunity to explore a lesser renowned legion and make people care for them in a new light, and it just didn't. I put down the book with the same indifference to the RG as I did before.

 

Overall the book starts strong, with the tense escape from the Istvaan system, and the tantalising exploration of Terra/Imperial Palace and the accompanying events. After that it deteriorates rapidly. I will be eagerly looking forward to Know No Fear, as I know Dan is an author of superb ability, and despite what people say about him post-Prospero Burns (cant write Space Marines???? Horus Rising anyone?) his writing is in a league of its own, as always I know he will deliver the goods.

[Aqatone]

Just finished Deliverance Lost last night. I have to admit, whilst I did enjoy large parts of it, I was ultimately disappointed. There was so much potential with this story, which at points Gav seemed to realise, but never ended up exploring, or at least not to my satisfaction. It was good to see Corax in more depth, but I would have liked a little more exploration of the Raven Guard themselves, especially dealing with the rift between Istvaan vets and non-vets, which was hinted at early on in the story. Aside from Corax I really felt nothing for any of the characters. The whole Agapito traitor bluff was obvious, and as has been mentioned here before, when it was revealed to be 'the other commander' I just didn't care. Gav hadn't spent any time building up an inherent trust in that commander for me to care about his traitorous intent. The flash backs to Corax's youth and the uprisings were good though. The Imperial Fists and Custodes are quite literally there for the sake of cameo appearances, their interactions are only briefly explored (although I did like the IF and RG discussing who would kill Horus).

 

The Alpha Legion were portrayed horribly, and I hope the next author to tackle them plays it closer to Dan's depiction. As mentioned before on this thread, they weren't turned into the typical moustache twirling bad guys, but the intellect and respect for their operatives was clearly abandoned (although some could say that that was to show that they will go to any lengths to achieve their objective). The attitude of Omegon was questionable at best, and after the lengthy build up to the guild interaction it is simply swept under the carpet with barely even a line to explain the supposed planetary uprising and civil war caused by 'The Order of the Dragon'. The final act against the Cabal just makes no sense, and the gullibility of the legion to their Primarch's inch deep explanation is just unbelievable for a legion that prides itself on intellect. Although I did like the moment when 'Alpharius' experienced Stockholm Syndrome, but again this was just abandoned when the time came for it to make a difference.

 

On a quick side note, I am really getting tired of Word Bearers being the 'rent a bad guy when you need one to embarrass/kill' , this happened twice in the book, and I only hope Dan follows ADB in portraying them as the lethal bad asses they are meant to be, not the incompetent jokes everyone uses them for.

 

The battles were, apart from the first Raptor engagement, appalling. The attack on Ravendelve and the final battle were just rushed and felt somewhat lacking. The ending was....'meh', and as much as I hate to use that word its all I can really use to describe it. Unlike the other books which leave either cliff-hangers of tantalising threads for both the traitors (which to some extent existed here), I was left feeling no anticipation for my next Raven Guard encounter, which to be honest I felt before this book (as they are really a secondary or even tertiary legion in terms of canon importance). That ultimately is my biggest gripe with this book. It was a perfect opportunity to explore a lesser renowned legion and make people care for them in a new light, and it just didn't. I put down the book with the same indifference to the RG as I did before.

 

Overall the book starts strong, with the tense escape from the Istvaan system, and the tantalising exploration of Terra/Imperial Palace and the accompanying events. After that it deteriorates rapidly. I will be eagerly looking forward to Know No Fear, as I know Dan is an author of superb ability, and despite what people say about him post-Prospero Burns (cant write Space Marines???? Horus Rising anyone?) his writing is in a league of its own, as always I know he will deliver the goods.

 

This is exactly my train of thought that I didn't have the time to type out. Perfectly summarised. Thank you.

[Marik]

Biggest issues I had with the book was that it paints a different picture of the Drop Site Massacre most notabbly in the numbers department where the events in Fulgrim depicted the total number of marines present at around ~80,000 I believe Deliverance Lost depicts the Raven Guard alone bringing almost that many to the fight and loosing them.

[ninja6fett]

Biggest issues I had with the book was that it paints a different picture of the Drop Site Massacre most notabbly in the numbers department where the events in Fulgrim depicted the total number of marines present at around ~80,000 I believe Deliverance Lost depicts the Raven Guard alone bringing almost that many to the fight and loosing them.

 

Between Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns BL decided to jump up the number of marines in each legion considerably. There's your explanation. Not much can be done about it.

[Iron Lord]

Strictly the "jump up" goes right back to the Visions artbook series- which predate the Heresy novels quite a bit.

 

However, BL writers generally didn't get the memo for a while. The first I know of to make full use of the new numbers was A.D-B in The First Heretic.

[Grimdarkness]

I finished the book today and ehh is right.

[sponsra]

I also felt a bit indifferent reading it. It suffers from the same flaw as many other bl books -it has more the structure of a rpg-scenario than a novel/story. When playing role playing games it tend to become a random assortment of events piled on top of each other - a series of obstacles for the heroes to tacle (to satify the players thirst for adventure, not to tell a story. I think the whole labyrint thing is an example of this. ). It lacks that quality of carefully built up drama. This creates some of the problems mentioned above, some threads left unexplored and the lack of character in the pratagonists. Gav could have swopped the names of all the captains i the middle of the book and it wouldnt have made a difference.

 

This whole, writing a good drama thing is what Dan Abnett does so incredibly well, even though you might say he cant write space mariens (wich I dont agree with at all) he knows how to tell a good story. I couldn't put down Prospero Burns, Legion and Horus rising was my favourite HH-books for a long time and I cant wait for Know no fear.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

..even though you might say he cant write space mariens (wich I dont agree with at all) he knows how to tell a good story..

 

The latter tends to come at the expense of the former, which is the problem.

[Kodanshi]

^ I don’t agree. Reading Brothers of the Snake as a complete newcomer to 40K (with the exception of the Inquisition) made me actually feel the awe that others felt at seeing and interacting with a Space Marine. Getting into their heads over the remaining chapters of the book, and the little digs at the game itself (a Marine without a helmet promptly gets shot in the head and killed), thrilled me. Later books have only cemented this for me. Horus Rising, Prospero Burns — both incredible Space Marine books.

[sponsra]

yeah, Ogvaii is my favourite character so far in the HH...

[CarlSkaven]

I enjoyed the book overall and thought that it was one of the better books in the series but even so I felt that the Alpha Legion's success came about as a result of contrived stupidity on the part their opponents, see below;

 

 

1) Considering a battle barge with reflex shields had a hard time remaining unnoticed in the Istvaan system how did the Alpha Legion manage to sneak a battle barge without that technology into the Deliverance system considering its documented high level of technology and the defense/monitoring systems usually associated with a Legion Homeworld?

 

2) Given that the area around Ravendelve was being monitored from orbit how were the Thunderhawks launched from the Beta to attack Ravendelve not detected and if they were why did no-one question the appearance of two additional Thunderhawks?

 

3) How were Titans & surface forces able to move into position to attack the site undetected, they are rather large?

 

4) Given that the Custodians were sent to the Deliverance system with the sole purpose of protecting the genetic material from falling into the wrong hands why were none of them guarding it at the Ravendelve site?

 

5) Again given that the Raven Guard had been told to destroy the genetic material rather than let it be captured why were there no Raven Guard assigned to guard the Infirmary, why were there no explosives in place to destroy it forcing the Apothecary to leave and why was the Apothecary unable to requisition any Raven Guard to protect it given that he had just received a direct order from the Primarch to do so?

 

6) Why site the gene-lab on Kiavahr in the first place which is a busy Hive World which still has insurrectionist elements as opposed to the well defended and completely loyal Deliverance, hmmm busy, populous hive world vs quiet, desolate moon? Lets face it the abnormal level of aerial traffic to Ravendelve and increased security wasn't exactly discrete, compared to say the Ravenspire where only the Raven Guard know what is happening.

 

7) When the initial attack on Ravendelve occurred why was the genetic material not relocated to a more secure facility, why did no-one wonder why the Tech Guild chose the Ravendelve as their target?

 

8) Given the importance placed on the genetic material why when the breach of security in the infirmary was detected and reported to Branne did he not take more steps to investigate and/or report it to Corax? Branne your fellow commander has accessed the secret weapon technology that could effect the outcome of the war, modified the files and deleted his tracks, should you maybe report that.....nahh.

 

9) Considering the number of encrypted signals that were detected, some of which were inside the Raven Guards own transmissions why was this security breach not reported more highly or investigated more seriously given the nature of the secret they were protecting?

 

 

It just seems that the only way that the Alpha Legion could have been successful is if the genetic material was left unguarded so the author engineered a way for this to conveniently happen in spite of how stupid it would be to leave the most powerful weapon you have unguarded in a time of civil war.

 

 

OMG read the book for real! so many answers are there!!!

[ninja6fett]

OMG read the book for real! so many answers are there!!!

 

What? I have read the book and these are AMAZING criticisms of all the author mandated stupidity required for the RG to fail so badly and the AL to win.

 

It's upsetting.

 

Also, the nigh complete lack of the stealthiness of the RG. Chapter's Due had a pretty much perfect depiction of the RG imo.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wasn't that the one where a power armored (weighing several tons) marine leaps and jumps in the air, performing something of a summersault and landing, then proceeds to fight his enemies wushu style?

 

 

Yes.

 

Yes. Clearly that's a totally realistic portrayal of how the Raven Guard would fight!

[ninja6fett]

Wasn't that the one where a power armored (weighing several tons) marine leaps and jumps in the air, performing something of a summersault and landing, then proceeds to fight his enemies wushu style?

 

 

Yes.

 

Yes. Clearly that's a totally realistic portrayal of how the Raven Guard would fight!

 

I'll have to go see, but what I meant was the depiction of how stealthy they are and how the operate mostly......

[Valtonis]

just finished reading it.

Loved it.

mostly because of the depictions of Corax and Alpharius, mostly Corax.

this the first time that a Primarch is shown to be an actual person and not just superhuman with some emotions.

there are some parts of the novel which are pretty touching to me, which is a first for this series.

 

it is a pretty nice touch that the RG actually brought about advances in space armor technology due to getting owned at Isstvaan. i did wish that Tech Marine had more "screen time"

 

there are quite alot of illogical and crappy plot devices (i'm looking at you Branne) but overall it is a very nice read.

 

yes, i do wish that it would have more action, more RG stealthy action but it gave a very complete background on the Raven Guard (post- Isstvaan).

which is more than alot of the other novels on the other legions can say.

[Azarias]

Regardless of the book's faults, there was one clever bit that I only caught onto a few weeks after reading it.

It's when Corax enters the Labyrinth, and sees that poem written in code.

The poem is as follows:

 

In Egypt’s sandy silence, all alone,

Stands a gigantic Leg, which far off throws

The only shadow that the Desert knows:

‘I am great OZYMANDIAS,’ saith the stone,

‘The King of Kings; this mighty City shows

‘The wonders of my hand.’ The City’s gone,

Nought but the Leg remaining to disclose

The site of this forgotten Babylon.

We wonder, and some Hunter may express

Wonder like ours, when thro’ the wilderness

Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chase,

He meets some fragments huge, and stops to guess

What powerful but unrecorded race

Once dwelt in that annihilated place

 

Now, the poem was written in 1818 by Horace Smith, a friend to the more famous Percy Bysshe Shelley. The two, upon hearing of some new plundered Egyptian relic that was coming to the British Museum, decided to compete with each other over who could write the better poem on the subject. Shelley's is, rightly, more famous:

 

I met a traveller from an antique land

Who said: 'Two vast and trunkless legs of stone

Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand,

Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:

And on the pedestal these words appear:

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.'

 

Now, Shelley's poem is anthologized while, unless you're a literary scholar, Smith's has been mostly forgotten. It's a wonderful gesture of irony on Thorpe's part, then, to have the lesser poem remembered while the greater poem has been lost - the gesture speaks to the theme that both poets deal with.

 

That being said, it's not a genius touch. It's more akin to a clever pun. But still, well done on his part for working such a detail into the book.

[Valkyrion]

2 questions (I haven't finished it yet) relating to the Emperor and Corax's discussion

 

1: The Emperor possessed Malcador?

 

2: Which forces of the Imperium are engaged in the webway? It's not any of the 18 legions, unlikely to be the imperial army, the custodes and sisters are spread amongst the legions...

[Watch-commander Albus]

2 questions (I haven't finished it yet) relating to the Emperor and Corax's discussion

 

1: The Emperor possessed Malcador?

 

Posessed, spoke through the mouth of, whatever you name it, that is what happened yes.

 

2: Which forces of the Imperium are engaged in the webway? It's not any of the 18 legions, unlikely to be the imperial army, the custodes and sisters are spread amongst the legions...

 

The largest part of the custodes is engaged in the webway (only a smaller part of the legio custodes went with the space wolves to prospero). I am not sure of the Sisters of Silence. According to collected visions there were no legions engaged in the webway and it was kept a secret for them.

[Greyall]

Wasn't that the one where a power armored (weighing several tons) marine leaps and jumps in the air, performing something of a summersault and landing, then proceeds to fight his enemies wushu style?

 

 

Yes.

 

Yes. Clearly that's a totally realistic portrayal of how the Raven Guard would fight!

 

 

Power armour is supposed to enhance agility, remember those accounts of swordfights where the characters move in a blurr. The Space Marine game portrays that agility nicely, making it believable that a power-armoured character can have his speed enhanced and not becoming cumbersome. The effect of wearing power-armour is like having increased muscular capability (hope this is the correct term). Also...several tons? I thought Marines weighted 1 ton.

 

 

@Nikt208: I'm not saying in doesn't happen in Deliverance Lost - haven't read it - but how are Word Bearers being treated as the butt of the joke in the HH narrative? They've managed to become as or even more feared than the Sons of Horus, with Lorgar establishing himself as the first heretic with all the meaning that title carries.

 

Not to mention that, between Lorgar and his legionnaires, the Bearers have managed to:

 

SPOILERS

 

 

- Beat a Bloodthirster

- Break Fulgrim's pretty face

- Exert a measure of mind-control over Horus (it wasn't much, but when it's done by a Primarch not known for his strength of mind, it becomes meaningful)

- Take control of the whole Emperor's Children fleet

- Dominate on Isstvan, thanks to the Gal Vorbak

- Outsmart and massacre a detachment of Custodes

 

Usually, losers don't do that.

 

I actually think the HH series has so far given fans of every Legion a reason to be happy.

 

Sorry for the off-topic, by the way.

[eyeslikethunder]

I actually think the HH series has so far given fans of every Legion a reason to be happy.

 

Well said

[Marik]

Not to mention that, between Lorgar and his legionnaires, the Bearers have managed to:

 

SPOILERS

 

 

- Beat a Bloodthirster

- Break Fulgrim's pretty face

- Exert a measure of mind-control over Horus (it wasn't much, but when it's done by a Primarch not known for his strength of mind, it becomes meaningful)

- Take control of the whole Emperor's Children fleet

- Dominate on Isstvan, thanks to the Gal Vorbak

- Outsmart and massacre a detachment of Custodes

 

Usually, losers don't do that.

 

I actually think the HH series has so far given fans of every Legion a reason to be happy.

 

 

While the Word Bearers as a force have been impressive. Lorgar has just come off as a whiny bitch that no one seems to have any respect for, heck even Erebus treats him like a child and also tells him off at one point.

[Ashur]

I cannot add anything to the criticisms already voiced here. A good book that unfortunately fell short of my expectations.

The only thing I really disliked is the unusually talkative Corax. I was expecting more silence from the primarch described as "devoid of emotions".

Sometimes I grow frustrated of the lack of primarch time in the HH serie. But it preserve their mystery. This is the first time I feel the other way around.

[Kodanshi]

While the Word Bearers as a force have been impressive. Lorgar has just come off as a whiny bitch that no one seems to have any respect for, heck even Erebus treats him like a child and also tells him off at one point.

 

Try reading Aurelian. He turns badass in that.

[Marshal Rohr]

In Space Marine, how frequently do you jump? It does an excellent job of illustrating just exactly how power armor would let you fight, but jumping isnt something power armor is supposed to be able to do.

 

Run through walls, knock enemies unconscious, take withering amounts of fire, etc. Sure. But not leap and bound without an assault pack.