Deliverance Lost

[Iron Lord]

Jumping is shown in Cain's Last Stand though- with Sisters rather than marines, demonstating improved jumping ability thanks to the extra strength the armour grants (though not enough extra to take them to Str 4).

[Honda]

+++ HERE BE SPOILERS +++

 

Disclosure/Points of reference: I really like how Dan Abnett writes and in particular think his depiction of the Alpha Legion is among the best description of chapter operations, perhaps only surpassed by the Wolves in Prospero Burns. I also like McNeill a lot, but place him a tad under Abnett as far as ability, though I think Fulgrim is an epic work. ADB, I elevate to McNeill levels of capability through his ability to make me so thoroughly loathe the Word Bearers as much as McNeill caused me to completely detest the Emperor's Children. Before those books, I merely "greatly disliked" both chapters. So kudos to them both.

 

I also think Swallow's FotE floats him very near the McNeill level of capabilities.

 

I am a Raven Guard/Alpha Legion fan boy, through and through. So I had high expectations going into the book.

 

 

 

 

Finished the book last night. My general impressions are...

 

Things I liked:

 

1. Gav actually made me laugh out lound with two exchanges, Corax telling Branne to stay where he was supposed to when they got to Terra, and the RG/IF wager with Noriz stating that he'd "always wanted a set of rusty keys". Two moments that were well done, which I thought gave the reader volumes to think about when it comes to describing how the two chapters differ.

 

2. I was very intrigued by Corax's invisibility. Very interesting and fitting as a concept.

 

3. General plot line and the descriptions of the general areas/environments. Gav did a good job of painting the canvas and portraying the scale of everything for the setting.

 

4. The overall plot was ambitious and he should be recognized for his efforts and scope.

 

5. I know there is a lot discussion about Horus/Erebus/Abbaddon vs. Alpharius, but those discussions exchanges didn't bother me as much. The characters have all changed, perhaps becoming more of what they really are vs. earlier in the crusade when they are still learning what they are.

 

 

Things that bothered me:

 

a. Many of the plot devices used to advance the story were...weak. The attention to detail and maintenance of consistency necessary to make events happened seemed very contrived at times.

 

b. The AL operations...where to begin. Abnett lets you think about things and...wonder. In "Legion" you aren't told how things work, amazing/impossible things happen and you are left to your imagination to try and figure out how it worked. For example, when Dinas Chayne noticies that the AL trooper is walking right through all the electonic trips and warnings without setting them off, you the reader and Dinas are left to wonder...so how did he do that? You get to think about it as you are marveling in the fact that it just happened. Gav seems predisposed to try and explain everything as if the reader is incapable of guessing...or worse yet, the author doesn't believe the reader is capable of guessing. Which I find disappointing in authors.

 

3. All the Nikt208 points. This goes back to Item A, but really? I do expect much better.

 

So, I'd give it a 7/10 grade. I found things to like about it, and there are things that Gav did very well, but in the end, I felt just a tad disappointed.

[nightlordsrock3564]

I LOVED THIS BOOK!!!!!!!! why couldn't gav write an earlier book

[Cactus]

Thanks for the literature lesson Azarias. I'd recognised that the poem wasn't Shelley's but I wasn't aware of Horace Smith until now. Nice touch Gav. :)

[Grimdarkness]

I actually think the HH series has so far given fans of every Legion a reason to be happy.

 

Well said

 

Really the white scars fan boys would disagree heck even the DA and they have had 2 novel's. DL is a good start for some of the lesser legions to get there time in the lime light.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Hlafway into Deliverance lost and I'm really enjoying it.

 

I think people expect too much at times and forget to enjoy a book for what it is. Deliverance lost explains a few details that have always been a bit blurred (such as how they rebuilt so fast and Corvus' life before the Emperor turned up).

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I think people expect too much at times and forget to enjoy a book for what it is.

 

I expect a story that doesn't feel contrived and slap-dash, which by your reason is apparently too much.

[DarKnight]

Wasn't that the one where a power armored (weighing several tons) marine leaps and jumps in the air, performing something of a summersault and landing, then proceeds to fight his enemies wushu style?

 

 

Yes.

 

Yes. Clearly that's a totally realistic portrayal of how the Raven Guard would fight!

 

 

Power armour is supposed to enhance agility, remember those accounts of swordfights where the characters move in a blurr. The Space Marine game portrays that agility nicely, making it believable that a power-armoured character can have his speed enhanced and not becoming cumbersome. The effect of wearing power-armour is like having increased muscular capability (hope this is the correct term). Also...several tons? I thought Marines weighted 1 ton.

 

 

@Nikt208: I'm not saying in doesn't happen in Deliverance Lost - haven't read it - but how are Word Bearers being treated as the butt of the joke in the HH narrative? They've managed to become as or even more feared than the Sons of Horus, with Lorgar establishing himself as the first heretic with all the meaning that title carries.

 

Not to mention that, between Lorgar and his legionnaires, the Bearers have managed to:

 

SPOILERS

 

 

- Beat a Bloodthirster

- Break Fulgrim's pretty face

- Exert a measure of mind-control over Horus (it wasn't much, but when it's done by a Primarch not known for his strength of mind, it becomes meaningful)

- Take control of the whole Emperor's Children fleet

- Dominate on Isstvan, thanks to the Gal Vorbak

- Outsmart and massacre a detachment of Custodes

 

Usually, losers don't do that.

 

I actually think the HH series has so far given fans of every Legion a reason to be happy.

 

Sorry for the off-topic, by the way.

To be fair all that occurred in two works written by the same author.

[aurelian]

Mixed feelings.

To be honest i was expecting much more. I agree with almost every negative opinions about the characters and the plot that i read in this thread.

 

My biggest problem with the novel though is the change in the original story. Don't get me wrong, i'm not against changes like this in general, and i know that the HH books changed a lot of the original Index Astartes background stories. Most of these changes serve to evolve the original concepts, to give deapth to stories that were originally just background fluff.

 

Now as i understand it, the Raven Guard Legion and Corax were born from E. A. Poe's poem, and this was an original and awsome concept. Corax has always been described as the quiet, melancholic, troubled hero, and his story had a very strong and characteristic ending, like haunted by his failure, setting off alone for the Eye, whispering 'nevermore'

In the novel, Corax's personality has shown very little of this, at least for me, he spoke these long and heroic speeches like any army commander, and there was just nothing special about him. But that's okay, it is just a personal dislike from my side.

The true problem, in my opinion, is that this final punchline of his story becomes completely unvalid, unexplained, and unreasoned. To feel such remorse and guilt, a primarch should be a real tragic hero, something like Magnus, who has done hideous things in his hubris, in Corax's case his blind intent to rebuild his forces at all costs.

So in the original story, though left dark and half forgotten in the Index Astartes, it is something like Corax, in his impatience, creates a legion of monsters, then uses them against Horus, and then feels terrible guilt.

Now in the novel we have the Alpha Legion corrupting the primarch's work which was perfect, we have Corax immediately cancelling the project after the first signs of corruption, we have a few monsters (maybe just one squad) instead of half a legion, and even they behave mostly like normal legionaries. And in the end, we have Corax make another of his speeches, almost optimistic, that nothing happened and the Raven Guard will operate jus as it has always done.

 

So my big question about this book is that what exactly made Corax feel so desperate in the end, and what was he even guilty of? I think Battle for the Abyss was a much worse novel, but at least it took nothing away from the HH. I appreciate any change in the stories if they make them better, but this is the loss of an originally good and intersting story to a boring one.

 

2. I was very intrigued by Corax's invisibility. Very interesting and fitting as a concept.

 

I didn't like that. It's like flying Land Raiders. A primarch who is invisible even to scanners (in Raven's Flight) and even while fighting? I think it crosses a line that it shouldn't.

 

I'm very interested in your opinions about this whole thing. Do you think Corax's flight to the Eye of Terror is still a beliveable ending?

Regards, a.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think people expect too much at times and forget to enjoy a book for what it is.

 

I expect a story that doesn't feel contrived and slap-dash, which by your reason is apparently too much.

 

Im very guilty of this. I read through the novels looking for new tidbits and background info without paying the story itself much attention. I like the plots, but sometimes I just lose focus.

 

I'll read this awesome story about Lorgar falling to chaos, and the most memorable things I take from the book are the order the Legions deployed in at Istvaan V. Corax used a whip. The Lion has an iron circlet. Nightlords paint lightning on their armor. Sigismund had blond hair.

 

 

Things that dont really matter to what Im supposed to be reading, but its what I buy the books for.

 

 

Kind of stupid now that I think about it.

[A D-B]

Wasn't that the one where a power armored (weighing several tons) marine leaps and jumps in the air, performing something of a summersault and landing, then proceeds to fight his enemies wushu style?

 

 

Yes.

 

Yes. Clearly that's a totally realistic portrayal of how the Raven Guard would fight!

 

 

Power armour is supposed to enhance agility, remember those accounts of swordfights where the characters move in a blurr. The Space Marine game portrays that agility nicely, making it believable that a power-armoured character can have his speed enhanced and not becoming cumbersome. The effect of wearing power-armour is like having increased muscular capability (hope this is the correct term). Also...several tons? I thought Marines weighted 1 ton.

 

 

@Nikt208: I'm not saying in doesn't happen in Deliverance Lost - haven't read it - but how are Word Bearers being treated as the butt of the joke in the HH narrative? They've managed to become as or even more feared than the Sons of Horus, with Lorgar establishing himself as the first heretic with all the meaning that title carries.

 

Not to mention that, between Lorgar and his legionnaires, the Bearers have managed to:

 

SPOILERS

 

 

- Beat a Bloodthirster

- Break Fulgrim's pretty face

- Exert a measure of mind-control over Horus (it wasn't much, but when it's done by a Primarch not known for his strength of mind, it becomes meaningful)

- Take control of the whole Emperor's Children fleet

- Dominate on Isstvan, thanks to the Gal Vorbak

- Outsmart and massacre a detachment of Custodes

 

Usually, losers don't do that.

 

I actually think the HH series has so far given fans of every Legion a reason to be happy.

 

Sorry for the off-topic, by the way.

To be fair all that occurred in two works written by the same author.

 

No, I think he has a point. You can look for what the Word Bearers have done to look cool, but because I try to balance it pretty carefully (even without putting them at significant disadvantages), they don't look as immediately cool and successful as the other Legions.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2971616

[Honda]

I'm very interested in your opinions about this whole thing. Do you think Corax's flight to the Eye of Terror is still a beliveable ending?

Regards, a.

 

I'd be surprised that the RG get much in the way of additional treatment, though I suppose it's possible that they are a sidebar to another story. I'm left with the general impression after DL that there's no need to revisit them.

 

Which may also be a part of my disappointment. The RG don't have to be a major player, but they should have some significance and I don't feel like that was accomplished.

[ninja6fett]

I for one like the invisibility bit. It was balanced in the audio dramas though. And I think Gav took it too far when he was invisible while actually fighting. That makes no sense.

 

I just didn't feel like the RG were much different than any other legion in this book. It wasn't as pronounced as it should have been. There were little bits and pieces, but not nearly enough.

[Valkyrion]

I thought it was a bit like a Nicholas Cage film - it's never going to win any prizes but you'd happily sit through it once a year. Entertaining, but a bit vacant.

 

It probably sits somewhere in the middle of the series for me, I did enjoy the plot and the overriding point of the book was put across as intended I think, but it was a bit empty.

[Greyall]

No, I think he has a point. You can look for what the Word Bearers have done to look cool, but because I try to balance it pretty carefully (even without putting them at significant disadvantages), they don't look as immediately cool and successful as the other Legions.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2971616

 

When you start from further below than your competitors, any evolving on your part will be more noticeable. You'll grow faster and continue to grow while the others are cementing their reputation (in the case of Primarchs) and abilities, until you reach their level.

 

Lorgar has simply got to the level of his brothers. And instead of becoming a super-duper warrior (which he isn't supposed to be), he simply unlocked his psychic abilites and became a driven, ruthless man with the advantage of surprise for his first strike. It makes sense for him to appear as being on top of the world, right now.

 

 

@Grimdarkness: White Scars mounted an ambush(!) on the Sons of Horus and one of them cut Little Aximand's face. If that's not awesome...but you're right, they deserve more, but since their biggest role was at the defense of the Emperor's palace...

 

Dark Angels will have a tragic HH story no matter what.

[Lord_Caerolion]

They need to keep Corax heading into the Eye, it's one of the central things about his character.

 

As for the Word Bearers though, I'd hardly say they "dominated" at Istvaan. There were less than 100 of the Gal Vorbak, and Corax cut through those with ease. They were one of the biggest Legions on the Traitor side, yes, but they didn't do amazingly because they had less than 1% of their present numbers daemonically possessed.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

They need to keep Corax heading into the Eye, it's one of the central things about his character.

 

As for the Word Bearers though, I'd hardly say they "dominated" at Istvaan. There were less than 100 of the Gal Vorbak, and Corax cut through those with ease. They were one of the biggest Legions on the Traitor side, yes, but they didn't do amazingly because they had less than 1% of their present numbers daemonically possessed.

 

Surprise and shock won Istvaan, it was nothing to do with individual skill on anyone's part. The 3 loyalist legions where attacked from fron and rear, never saw it coming and where not allowed the time to regroup and consolidate, textbook ambush.

[Greyall]

Well, through shock and skill, they left their mark there, for sure.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Surprise and shock won Istvaan...

 

Numbers had a lot to do with it too.

[Aegnor]

Lots of people saying the scenes between Horus and Alpharius, in particular Abaddon and Erebus's roles, annoyed them. I think it's fair to say that the "Alpharius loves Horus" element of why the AL turned had already been retconned away. As for Horus and Erebus being tools - yes, yes they were. On whose orders do you think? Remember, Horus is a master manipulator and we saw in the first few books how he uses his captains etc to play the role of attack dog, so he can seem like the wise/reasonable one. That technique no doubt changed as he became corrupt, but I think that was still what was going on here. For some, like Angron or Montarion, he can probably rely on cruder manipulative methods/shows of strength, but he knows every conversation with Alpharius is like wrangling a greased eel and that simply bullying him isn't reliable.

 

He is unsure of Alpharius, and maybe a bit worried. He wants to put the acid on him a bit, but doesn't want to give the impression that he's worried. So he has Abaddon and Erebus treat him like something stuck on their shoes, to create the vibe where Alpharius is somewhat on the defensive, without ever having to express any uncertainty himself. Well played Horus I say.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I never thought about it like that. Well played, Aegnor, well played.

[Castiel]

I liked it overall, although the sudden appearence of an Imperator titan was a bit of a stretch.

 

I particularly liked the reference to "Ozymandias". It made me wonder if the Emperor knew that his Empire would one day crumble?

[jeffersonian000]

Well, having just finished reading The Outcast Dead", I can say with no doubt that The Big E knew the outcome of his actions before he stood toe to toe with Horus. "You can be both all powerful and all knowing, but not at the same time."

 

SJ

[Captain Juan Juarez]

"You can be both all powerful and all knowing, but not at the same time."

 

So far this is true, but I'm working on it.

 

To be honest, I think more could have been made of these conversations but that may have damaged the flow of them.

[jeffersonian000]

I don't know. The more I read the HH novels, the more I see them is justification for the current 40k setting rather than history leading up the current setting. Everywhere you look in the HH setting, things are the same as they are in 40k, yet the characters don't seem to get it. Forgeworlds and Hiveworlds are described in HH exactly as they are in 40k, yet HH characters are "horrified" by what the future holds for humanity! Is it the fact that in 10,000 years Nothing Changes?

 

Take the first Dark Angel HH novel, for instance. I was so looking forward to see how the Legions were pre-Primarch, and was intrigued by how the Knights of Calaban were following a similar model to Space Marine doctrine and equipment for thousands of years before Space Marines existed. This was a reinforcement of the same concept I got reading the first HH book where two completely different worlds used the same military doctrines as the Imperium, with one of those worlds using STC power armor and MkIII Land raiders. It gave me the impression that Marines were following the doctrines and equipment styles of the original militaries during humanity's first exodus from Terra. Yet, the 1st Legion shows up and says, "We dreamed this all up because it’s the way our gene-father does things." I was like B F'ing S!

 

And every novel since then has just added more "40k" to the 30k setting that they've just start to suck even though being written quite well (in most cases). Look at the rampant poverty throughout Terra 300 years after Unification, or how every human world that is compliant is treated as nothing more than the munitions factory for the war effort which is no different than how things are in 40k! It’s a huge let down.

 

SJ