Deliverance Lost

[Aegnor]

I suppose I could see why you think of it as a let down, but I don't see it that way. Yeah, there was serious poverty and a hypocritical side to the Imperium. But you're missing the key differences between the 30K and 40K settings. In 30K, up until the Heresy started at least, there was genuine progress going on that offered hope these things would improve. Not just the Wars of Unification, but also the actual Age of Strife were memories within the lifespan of people active in 30K. Whatever the issues of that time, they paled in comparison to the ongoing self genocide of the entire human race during the Age of Strife. People mostly believed the Emperor would lead them to better times, the prospect of an end of conflict seemed realistic, there were even magos on Mars who were inventing new things.

 

What horrified people when they get glimpses of the future is that all the optimism and hope for progress towards a better situation is gone. Some things they thought gone forever - crazed superstitious zealotry, xenos preying on humanity - had returned. Progress had gone. It's one thing knowing there's mass poverty and misery going on but believing that they are being improved and seeing that improvement compared to 200 years ago. It's another to see the same poverty and misery and realize this has been the case for 10,000 years and will continue until humanity becomes extinct.

[2000AD]

One of the things I liked about it was how it threw the Alpha Legion's way up in the air...... by the end of the book youre not at all sure whose side theyre on!

 

But then thats the whole point isnt it....

 

 

;)

[Amadeus Baal]

I saw this quote in the latest WD "For what terrible sins of the past must we bear the torments of the present and the dark shadow of the future?" I like how the HH books answer that question.

[jeffersonian000]

My point was that that setting of Warhammer 30k is functionally no different from the setting of Warhammer 40k. Everything thing in one can be found in the other. Yes, the overall story arc is different, and it is good to see how the buildup to the Heresy occurred as well as what actually happened during it, but Space Marines = Space Marines, ancient-tech-is-better = ancient-tech-is-better, new-tech-is-crappy = new-tech-is-crappy, Imperial Guard = Imperial Guard, Chaos = Chaos, Eldar = Eldar, Arachnid = Tyranid, Technocracy = Tau, Thunder warriors = Orks, Green Skins = Orks, Vermin = Orks, Sisters of Silence = Sisters of Battle, Assassin clades = Assassin clades, AdMech = AdMech, not so brand new millennia old space ships = not so brand new millennia old space ships, etc.

 

It would have been nice if GW had thought a bit ahead and described an actual Golden Age unfolding in the wake of The Emperor's Grand Crusade, rather than the Golden Age worlds getting crushed and subjugated by the techno-barbarian horde of Humanity's one and only "I'm not a god" Emperor of Mankind. All that is being noted is that 40k is 10,000 years of "nothing has changed" since the events in 30k, while the events leading up to the Heresy was 300 years of barbarians busting down civilization in the name of The Emperor.

 

I'm not saying the books are bad (well, some are). Quite a few of them are exceptional works, and tell great stories. But they aren't really adding anything to the setting other than confusion via retroactive reconstruction of the background fluff, that The Big E was a Bad Dad, and that there is a huge disconnect between what the authors think should be happening and what has already been written.

 

SJ

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To be honest, I think the fact that nothing has changed in 10,00 years is kind of the point; they've gone from heralding in a grand, new, era to trying vainly to prevent the slip back into that period characterised as the "Long Night".

[freaky fryer]

as a 40k story it was a good read ,but it was just another one of those pointless infill books to get more money out of the fans of heresy because we want to collect all the books in this series.

[DarKnight]

My point was that that setting of Warhammer 30k is functionally no different from the setting of Warhammer 40k. Everything thing in one can be found in the other. Yes, the overall story arc is different, and it is good to see how the buildup to the Heresy occurred as well as what actually happened during it, but Space Marines = Space Marines, ancient-tech-is-better = ancient-tech-is-better, new-tech-is-crappy = new-tech-is-crappy, Imperial Guard = Imperial Guard, Chaos = Chaos, Eldar = Eldar, Arachnid = Tyranid, Technocracy = Tau, Thunder warriors = Orks, Green Skins = Orks, Vermin = Orks, Sisters of Silence = Sisters of Battle, Assassin clades = Assassin clades, AdMech = AdMech, not so brand new millennia old space ships = not so brand new millennia old space ships, etc.

 

It would have been nice if GW had thought a bit ahead and described an actual Golden Age unfolding in the wake of The Emperor's Grand Crusade, rather than the Golden Age worlds getting crushed and subjugated by the techno-barbarian horde of Humanity's one and only "I'm not a god" Emperor of Mankind. All that is being noted is that 40k is 10,000 years of "nothing has changed" since the events in 30k, while the events leading up to the Heresy was 300 years of barbarians busting down civilization in the name of The Emperor.

 

I'm not saying the books are bad (well, some are). Quite a few of them are exceptional works, and tell great stories. But they aren't really adding anything to the setting other than confusion via retroactive reconstruction of the background fluff, that The Big E was a Bad Dad, and that there is a huge disconnect between what the authors think should be happening and what has already been written.

 

SJ

In reality or in the world of warhammer, there is no such thing as the good old days. IMO its just that simple

[Captain Idaho]

Have just finished Deliverance Lost and I must say I really appreciated the information it gave us regarding perspectives of certain Legions and individuals.

 

I'm particularly glad the Alpha Legion

have been proven to be selfish and not at all the noble turn coats some people wanted to assume after reading Legion.

 

Glad Fabius Bile is working with flawed information all this time, as he can never win, in a way!

 

Makes sense now how the Alpha Legion replace their losses eh.

 

 

Only thing that's bothering me is the Alpha Legion are looking like they are going to be all winning and omnipotent in this series. Every Legion should have it's hard luck stories, but I fear theat just won't happen with them and they will end up getting some big conspiracy or long term plan going on without any bloody nose.

[Epistolary Exander]

Only thing that's bothering me is the Alpha Legion are looking like they are going to be all winning and omnipotent in this series. Every Legion should have it's hard luck stories, but I fear theat just won't happen with them and they will end up getting some big conspiracy or long term plan going on without any bloody nose.

 

This shouldnt be an issue the AL work by using their infiltration networks to gather asmuch information on their & then use the same networks to set up so many contingency measures in place ready for the AL to attack that the AL cant loose the battle/ campaign. This is why the Cabal thought that AL would be so pivotal in undoing the damage Horus would cause.

 

The AL should be that good in the series that the Wolves should be fearing the AL and not the maleficarum :angry:.

[Captain Idaho]

Only thing that's bothering me is the Alpha Legion are looking like they are going to be all winning and omnipotent in this series. Every Legion should have it's hard luck stories, but I fear theat just won't happen with them and they will end up getting some big conspiracy or long term plan going on without any bloody nose.

 

This shouldnt be an issue the AL work by using their infiltration networks to gather asmuch information on their & then use the same networks to set up so many contingency measures in place ready for the AL to attack that the AL cant loose the battle/ campaign. This is why the Cabal thought that AL would be so pivotal in undoing the damage Horus would cause.

 

The AL should be that good in the series that the Wolves should be fearing the AL and not the maleficarum :angry:.

 

Beg your pardon, but who wants to see a story where there is no chance of losing for one side? Where's the conflict?

 

I for one definitely want to see the Alpha Legion tear themselves apart because the twin Primarchs have a fundamental difference. I also want loyalists to give them a major black eye not because of pure luck but because they generally are outfighting them in that circumstance.

 

It would make them interesting and I must confess I believe the fan base would be unhappy with Alpha Legion being turned into "Mary Sues". *shrugs*

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Only thing that's bothering me is the Alpha Legion are looking like they are going to be all winning and omnipotent in this series. Every Legion should have it's hard luck stories, but I fear theat just won't happen with them and they will end up getting some big conspiracy or long term plan going on without any bloody nose.

 

This shouldnt be an issue the AL work by using their infiltration networks to gather asmuch information on their & then use the same networks to set up so many contingency measures in place ready for the AL to attack that the AL cant loose the battle/ campaign. This is why the Cabal thought that AL would be so pivotal in undoing the damage Horus would cause.

 

The AL should be that good in the series that the Wolves should be fearing the AL and not the maleficarum :angry:.

 

Beg your pardon, but who wants to see a story where there is no chance of losing for one side? Where's the conflict?

 

I for one definitely want to see the Alpha Legion tear themselves apart because the twin Primarchs have a fundamental difference. I also want loyalists to give them a major black eye not because of pure luck but because they generally are outfighting them in that circumstance.

 

It would make them interesting and I must confess I believe the fan base would be unhappy with Alpha Legion being turned into "Mary Sues". *shrugs*

 

 

QFT

 

WLK

[Aegnor]

I think Thorpe actually set up them not being Mary Sues in future when

he showed Alpharius breaking with the Cabal, murdering/inconveniencing their ambassador, and stating AL would strike out on it's own route. I can see them becoming overly proud in their cleverness and badly misjudging soon, especially without the farseeing abilities of the Cabal to guide them. It's clear that already Horus doesn't trust them - I think he'll sell them down the river sometime soon.

 

 

So I think some tougher days coming up for Alpharius and his namesakes.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think Thorpe actually set up them not being Mary Sues in future when

he showed Alpharius breaking with the Cabal, murdering/inconveniencing their ambassador, and stating AL would strike out on it's own route. I can see them becoming overly proud in their cleverness and badly misjudging soon, especially without the farseeing abilities of the Cabal to guide them. It's clear that already Horus doesn't trust them - I think he'll sell them down the river sometime soon.

 

 

So I think some tougher days coming up for Alpharius and his namesakes.

 

I hope your right.

 

WLK

[Yodhrin]

Frankly, this is the most disappointing HH novel for me so far; yes, even including Abyss and the DA novels. Why? Well, for a start, it pretty much dismantled Abnett's fantastic remodeling of the Alpha Legion; and before anyone starts, I won't be drawn into a debate on this point, it's simply true, the pre-Legion AL were....an afterthought, they just kind of existed, "those purply-bluey-green guys", and their reason for turning in the old background was just...petty.

 

But I think that Deliverance Lost, in many places but that in particular, shows the difference in how the authors see the HH series; Abnett, sometimes McNeil, ADB, and Swallow all, to a greater or lesser degree, understand the series as a pulp Greek Tragedy. Thorpe seems to view it as a mechanism for exposition, a way to "set up" 40K. The incredibly powerful Magnus become a victim of circumstance and hubris, the AL's noble yet utterly and ruthlessly pragmatic intentions, a Horus who perfectly balances on the line between arrogant manipulation and genuine camaraderie; these things all brought much needed depth to the Heresy story as a whole, and more importantly, made their fall all the more poignant(and there's no reason at all pulp fiction can't rise above "yarr I shoot u inna face"). The change in the AL's character is something that should have been explored gradually, in the same way that Horus' was, perhaps with little snippets thrown into multiple books over the course of the series, rather than just flipping a switch to turn them from noble pragmatism to uncaring spoilt children.

 

The little vignettes that hinted at the RG's story that we had before DL were really fantastic(apart from "Nevermore", obviously), and the saddest thing is they better conveyed the concept of Corax as maddened by grief than Thorpe managed in a whole book.

 

But what most annoyed me about this book, what really made me feel frustrated when I got to the end, was Fabius Bile. Seriously, putting a character who previously had a pretty huge role in the story right there in the Dramatis Personae at the front of the book, and then essentially giving him a walk-on cameo right at the very end; bad bloody form. I spent a good two-thirds of the book trying to work out which of the meagre few plot threads was going to lead to his introduction before I finally gave up and realised he'd essentially been written out.

 

So, yeah, I suppose what most annoys me about Deliverance Lost is the wasted potential. Like the fall of the Thousand Sons, the way Loken could see his legion and his primarch changing before his eyes but was helpless to stop it, the way that the powers of Chaos used visions of the very future that the Heresy would create in order to twist Horus to their will, the story of Corax's slow descent into madness and despair and the lengths to which he would be driven, that was a great tale which could really have added to the overall narrative of the Heresy as pulp-Greek Tragedy. Instead we got magical macguffins, invisible men, emo-ish self-pity, and the seemingly intentional dismantling of one of the things which this series has most improved; the story of the Alpha Legion.

 

What a waste of potential.

[Morollan]

b. The AL operations...where to begin. Abnett lets you think about things and...wonder. In "Legion" you aren't told how things work, amazing/impossible things happen and you are left to your imagination to try and figure out how it worked. For example, when Dinas Chayne noticies that the AL trooper is walking right through all the electonic trips and warnings without setting them off, you the reader and Dinas are left to wonder...so how did he do that? You get to think about it as you are marveling in the fact that it just happened. Gav seems predisposed to try and explain everything as if the reader is incapable of guessing...or worse yet, the author doesn't believe the reader is capable of guessing. Which I find disappointing in authors.

 

This is something I often find with Thorpe's writing. He doesn't seem to hold with the "Show, don't tell" idea. I'm not generally a fan of his work really and I'm afraid Deliverance Lost hasn't done much to change that opinion. It was alright but no more than that.

[The Crimson Cartel]

I think Thorpe actually set up them not being Mary Sues in future when

he showed Alpharius breaking with the Cabal, murdering/inconveniencing their ambassador, and stating AL would strike out on it's own route. I can see them becoming overly proud in their cleverness and badly misjudging soon, especially without the farseeing abilities of the Cabal to guide them. It's clear that already Horus doesn't trust them - I think he'll sell them down the river sometime soon.

 

 

So I think some tougher days coming up for Alpharius and his namesakes.

 

^

After reading this event, I had a thought pop into my head. No where in the book is it stated that Alpharius and Omegon are on the same page in making the decision to

toss the cabal "thing" out into the void..

It occured to me that this could,maybe, be a setting event for a potential fracture within the Alphas... Eventually leading up to the already established fluff where we have ONE of the twins dead. Maybe...

 

The book on the whole.. Just ok. Was a little disapointed with the ravens, and like others had said, pretty much felt like it was an Alpha book pretending to be a Raven book. Did enjoy Corax though. I was happy he wasn't nearly the depressing individual he could have been portrayed as, and was closer to his "Do I look like I need a bodyguard" self from the audio book. :)

 

-CC

[Hereticus81]

If all I said was that declaring the Word Bearer as an innocent was looking more into it than was actually shown in the book, but then the opposition continues to bring up how Corax was a homicidal lunatic as a counter argument, then it's not wrong for me to assume you're insinuating the Primarch's state as evidence for the Word Bearer's innocence. Otherwise, why bring it up?

 

But anyways:

 

Agapito spent several minutes looking at Khoura’s corpse after Solaro had left, thinking about what the primarch had said. Solaro was indeed blind to it, perhaps had not seen the taint, but Agapito knew what Corax had referred to. The taint had a name, a name he had heard whispered for the first time on Isstvan: Chaos.

 

you do miss out the bit just before it though which says

 

 

"When the Primarch was gone, Solaro gave Agapito a strange look. 'What was that about? What stench?' asked the commander. 'Must be a Primarch thing' replied Agapito 'I smell nothing here except the sweat of a dead man. You go and fetch Branne. I'll deal with this'".

 

 

I think that adds context and the section you quoted shows Agapito knows the stench of chaos... but doesn't 'smell' it on the WB Chaplain.

 

just my tuppence worth.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Thinking back on this book, I have a question. The little intro-soliloquy at the beginning. Its author is unknown. When I first read the book, I figured it was Corax waxing poetic about making the Marines that were monsters. But now I wonder -- is it actually Alpharius or Omegon, second guesing their actions or perhaps, more accurately, trying to justify their turning?

 

Discuss.

[Unintentional Batman]

I'm particularly glad the Alpha Legion have been

proven to be selfish and not at all the noble turn coats some people wanted to assume after reading Legion.

 

Proven nothing. This is Alpha Legion, we can't trust what any book says about them. They are that good at lying to you. It's quite likely Gav Thorpe is just a Legion plant spreading mis- and disinformation. Heck, it's even likely the omniscient narrator is a Legion agent.

[Captain Idaho]

If you forge your own path away from the Imperium and the Emperor you are a traitor of sorts. Regardless of intentions, it's their actions that speak the highest volume.

 

Unless of course they had the Emperor's blessing, which is doubtful in the extreme and clutching at straws.

[AbyssKnight]

3) This one doesn’t bother me too much, but why do the numbers not add up when it comes to converting between Deliverance /Kiavahran years and Terran years? The praefactor’s niece is aged 6, which works out at 17 years. This comes to 2.83 when converting to Terran years. When then describing his father, he claims the 17–year old is in his late 50s in Terran years. Yet 17 × 2.83 is just over 48.

 

This is actually pretty easy. You can't just divide 17 by 6. The niece is unlikely to be exactly 6 years old/17 terran years old. And since each year most likely has a different number of months and even days per month, that sentence (if said in very technical language), "She is 2358 days old, which is 6 of our years but 17 terran years."

 

If we assume a Terran year is 12 months (365 days). Then the neice is anywhere from, 204 (17.0 years) -215 (17 years, 11 months) months old (about 6205-6540 days old).

 

We know that this is equal to 6 non-terran years, but it probably isn't exactly 6 years. So this non-standard year is 29.56-35.83 months (low end is 204 month / 6.9 years old, high end is 215 months / 6.0 years old), 886.8-1074.9 days long.

 

Since we are trying to make the father as old as possible, we will use the longest year we can and make him as old as we can.

 

17.9x1074.9=19240.71 days old, or 52.71 Terran years old. Not quite "late" 50's. but older than 48.

[Ethrion]

Only thing that's bothering me is the Alpha Legion are looking like they are going to be all winning and omnipotent in this series. Every Legion should have it's hard luck stories, but I fear that just won't happen with them and they will end up getting some big conspiracy or long term plan going on without any bloody nose.

 

Well Guilliman does end up killing Alpharius (not in this book obviously!) so they do get a bloody nose in the end. Perhaps when they eventually lose one of their twin primarchs they finally lose their direction, guidance and certainty in cause.

 

With regards to Deliverance Lost I firmly agree with those who found it disappointing especially with Yodhrin when he says that it seems Thorpe sees the HH series as a "mechanism to "set up" 40K". I thought it started off really well, the escape from Istvaan, the establishment of an Alpha Legion operative and the mission to retrieve the primarch gene-tech. All of that was well written and captivating, I found myself pleasantly surprised that this was a Gav Thorpe book that I hadn't found a fault with and I was half way through (my previous dalliance with his writing had been The Purging of Kadillus which I thought was horrendous in so many respects). The flash backs to Corax and his rebellion was really good and were perhaps some of the best moments in the book.

 

The wheels began to fall off for me with the first battle scene against the Word Bearers - how marines were sheltering behind mess hall tables for cover and how when the plot requires it all legions astartes sensory equipment fails and marines can't see anything. It's annoying how bolt guns seem to vary in their destructiveness depending on the situation the author places his marines. How, the battle must take 50 seconds because it's imperative for the book to show the speed of a Raven Guard assault when you're left asking why? Why does it need to take 50 seconds? It's not like Horus or Lorgar is going to send reinforcements. The Raven Guard have just been given the gift of Mk. VI 'Corvus pattern' armour and lost 14 'Raptors' on the mission who were wearing said armour. For the plot purpose of a Raven Guard-esque speed attack they have lost valuable armour. I know they're petty details but they rankle and start to derail the story.

 

Regardless of this first battle I pressed on hoping that it was just Gav Thorpe's lack of being able to write battle scenes and that soon we would get back to the proper narrative - I was to be further disappointed. Up until this point the Alpha Legion involvement and actions had been really very cool but then it all seemed to get a little rushed and forced and unbelievable. Throughout the book the whole build up of who was going to turn out to be Alpharius promised to be exciting but then it somehow just dwindled by the end. The whole, "it's Agapito it's Agapito, oh wait it's not! It's this guy you've barely read about" just didn't make me care at all. I really didn't like how the Alpha Legionnaires became as expendable as they did by the end of the book and I agree with all of those that prefer the Alphas from Abnett's Legion over Thorpe's Alphas.

 

This brings me onto the whole change in the canon itself. Where previously Corax accidentally creates a horde of monsters in his rush to rebuild the legion (which up until half way through the book I still thought could happen) and it is this act that drives his guilt to such levels that he disappears. It's now written that he would have been 100% successful and in the end only created a few monsters. I'm sure in a future HH book we will see the story expanded and maybe something as yet unwritten will really drive him insane but for the moment I cannot see what could be better than the original story. It might have worked if the taint had been introduced to the gene-seed right from the start and had a delayed reaction so that only after thousands of legionaries had been created did they all change. That would have maintained the original theme and allowed for the integration of the Alpha Legion schemes to steal the pure strain for their own ends.

 

I don't understand why the custodians were not entirely guarding the infirmary and the gene-labs 24 hours a day. It is absolutely vital it remains safe and who better to guard primarch gene material than custodes? Corax's misgivings about keeping attention to a minimum doesn't make any sense. It's painfully obvious this is a plot device to allow the Alpha Legion inside the facility more easily. The same goes for why the labs were not set up on Deliverance, a space marine homeworld fortress moon. All it did was serve to split the Raven Guard so that they were on the moon while some of them were guarding the priceless primarch gene-tech on the planet below and forced Corax to travel between the two all the time making life difficult in the even of a crisis which, surprise surprise happens. Again, it's apparently to throw off suspicion and keep interest to a minimum, but it's just another poor plot device to allow the Alpha's in.

 

The Raven Guard response to the initial attack on Ravendelve by a few thousand rebel guilders makes no sense to me either. Why not send two squads of marines out into the rad wastes and gun them all down in minutes rather than cower on the walls shooting into the mist. It is here that apparently there is no aerial gunship support. Why? Is the mist too thick for astartes equipment? This is another one of those moments where space marine equipment and tactical brilliance goes out the window for the sake of driving the plot to its predetermined conclusion. Admittedly, the rebels later arrive with titans and allied dark-mechanicum units so I can understand for a little defensiveness in the face of that attack but again, this is a legion homeworld, surely, even though Corax left the planet quickly to prosecute the great crusade, Branne and those left behind would have ample defenses to repel what is ultimately a minor force. The guns of the fortress get taken out all too easily because that's what needed to happen.

 

As an aside, the final uncovering of the Alpha Legion operatives was a messy affair which should have been handled/written so much better. If Agapito had indeed assumed or even known about a traitor in the ranks since Terra then why on earth did he not voice his concerns? Again, forced plot device. It should have just not been mentioned, they should have either got away or Agapito tested them in another way there and then. To have one of the Alpha Legionnaires almost blurt out who their real primarch was just cheapened the skills of the Alpha Legion. They are masters of espionage and spec ops, why after spending the entire book making him seem brilliant at what he does suddenly make him a fool. It comes back to Thorpe's Alphas over Abnett's Alphas. I'll admit that it was good to have the two others commit suicide rather than get captured, that was nice.

 

However, putting aside all the contrived plot devices for a moment, the end result seemed to be skirted over as well. The Alpha Legion have just infiltrated the Raven Guard homeworld, they have tainted and destroyed the primarch gene-tech and go away with some yet there is absolutely no reaction to this turn of events just a casual - "destroy what might be left we'll go back to how we always made marines, this didn't work out". This completely jars with the importance of the security of the gene-tech earlier in the book and how Corax is told that he can take it but must pretty much take the information and its secrets to the grave before letting it fall into enemy hands. There is no sense of this abject failure at all. I had been expecting the tech to come under threat and the Alpha Legion get close to stealing it but I had been expecting Corax to guard it personally and single-handedly keep it safe, but no. This canon change might still have been salvageable if the loss of the primarch gene-tech crushed Corax and drove him insane and ultimately led him to disappear, perhaps in a hunt to retrieve it. But again, apparently not, it seems he got over the failure within days and moved on.

 

I won't mention much about the final battle against the Emperor's Children because this was a fortress assault written into one chapter from start to finish. I don't have to go into how that surely can't be good. I'll never understand why something that obviously requires more than 10 pages gets squashed into the back just for the sake of it.

 

To close I would say that Deliverance Lost started fantastic and was great up until midway through the book. I was expecting Corax to be on the verge of success only to create hordes of ravening monsters, not the handful that seemed not to bother him. I was hoping for a previously supporting role legion in the whole background to really get a well-deserved centre stage moment. I was expecting the Alpha Legion to be like the ones in Legion, not the "forced" chaos ones that we actually got and I was expecting that when the threat to the gene-tech ultimately did happen (we all could see it was coming) that Corax, the Raven Guard and the Custodes would put up a better showing than they did. It ended up seeming like Thorpe reached half way then thought "ok how do I get to where this story has to end?" and did whatever it took to reach that point. Sadly, I came away caring less for the Raven Guard now than I did going in.

 

edit: wow sorry that was a longer ramble than I first realized! My apologies.

[Clewz]

I think Thorpe actually set up them not being Mary Sues in future when

he showed Alpharius breaking with the Cabal, murdering/inconveniencing their ambassador, and stating AL would strike out on it's own route. I can see them becoming overly proud in their cleverness and badly misjudging soon, especially without the farseeing abilities of the Cabal to guide them. It's clear that already Horus doesn't trust them - I think he'll sell them down the river sometime soon.

 

 

So I think some tougher days coming up for Alpharius and his namesakes.

 

think it will be their arrogance towards the corrupting nature of chaos is where they will trip up

[Tyear]

Just a little tidbit here about Fabius getting his hands on that

genetech.

ps. Spoilers beware!

 

 

In the last two Blood Angel books written by James Swallow, our good friend and neighborhood apothecary Fabius gets his grubby hands on some of Sanguinius' genetic material, as we all known the bugger's been 'making' Space Marines for the highest bidder for quite some time now, canon and all that jazz, my thoughts went to: 30K: Fabius gets gene-tech from Alpharius, between 30k & 40K: Time is spend in the warp tinkering away with the gene-tech, he manages to unlock some aspects of it, but finds that it is ultimately flawed. Knowing that most if not all the Chaos Primarchs are either A. Imbued with the power of Chaos or B. Dead as a doornail, he decides to go for a new plan of creating 'Real' 'Perfect' Space Marines. 40k: He goes to Baal under the guise of being a bio-technician for the admech to help with creating new Space Marines, see here, the whole *creatures* deal in the BA books, those that y'know go all Rage-crazy. During the confusion he steals a vial of Sang's blood (if I recall correctly, been a while) and escapes offworld, to work on this new genetic material. After the events on his 'Science planet': The clone Fabius is killed by Rafen and the genetech made safe, now I'm fairly certain Fabius isn't one to simply say, "Oh well, that sucks" and move on about his day, no I'm fairly certain our good friend left something behind/'e-mailed' himself some of the findings etc.

 

Now in the Eye: The real Fabius gets word, sees what his clone found and he places the missing puzzle pieces together, using the 'broken' gene-tech from the Alpha Legion together with the genetic footprint shall we say of Sang, to create a workable version of the gene-tech, similar to what Corvus wanted to do after. He said that they could most likely fix it.

 

Just my two cents!

 

[Pavement Artist]

Only thing that's bothering me is the Alpha Legion are looking like they are going to be all winning and omnipotent in this series. Every Legion should have it's hard luck stories, but I fear theat just won't happen with them and they will end up getting some big conspiracy or long term plan going on without any bloody nose.

 

This shouldnt be an issue the AL work by using their infiltration networks to gather asmuch information on their & then use the same networks to set up so many contingency measures in place ready for the AL to attack that the AL cant loose the battle/ campaign. This is why the Cabal thought that AL would be so pivotal in undoing the damage Horus would cause.

 

The AL should be that good in the series that the Wolves should be fearing the AL and not the maleficarum ;).

 

Beg your pardon, but who wants to see a story where there is no chance of losing for one side? Where's the conflict?

 

I for one definitely want to see the Alpha Legion tear themselves apart because the twin Primarchs have a fundamental difference. I also want loyalists to give them a major black eye not because of pure luck but because they generally are outfighting them in that circumstance.

 

It would make them interesting and I must confess I believe the fan base would be unhappy with Alpha Legion being turned into "Mary Sues". *shrugs*

 

I concur absolutely. A divide between Alpharius and Omegon. I'd be very surprised if both of them make it out of the heresy alive (i'm not talking about Eskrador either.)

 

I'm as big an Alpha Legion fan as you're likely to find and the last thing i want to see is them become a plot device. Need to advance something? Alpha's infiltrated. It's lazy and boring and thankfully the Horus Heresy is made up of and guided by a group of talented and conscientious individuals who are working hard to make things as engrossing and believable as possible.

 

The uncharted waters the series seems to be moving in to does fill me with hope as it provides a lot of scope for epic heroic actions on the part of certain legions and of course, the requisite defeats. The Alphas may operate in a very different manner to the other legions but they certainly aren't immune to a kicking. I'll wager the Space wolves will give them a few bloody noses in return.