Deliverance Lost

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Snip: The Alphas may operate in a very different manner to the other legions but they certainly aren't immune to a kicking. I'll wager the Space wolves will give them a few bloody noses in return.

 

Except that its already in canon from the Collected Visions and the Alphas' IA article that they, the Alphas, are the ones who give the Wolves a couple of jolly good kickins. Sorry.

[Pavement Artist]

Snip: The Alphas may operate in a very different manner to the other legions but they certainly aren't immune to a kicking. I'll wager the Space wolves will give them a few bloody noses in return.

 

Except that its already in canon from the Collected Visions and the Alphas' IA article that they, the Alphas, are the ones who give the Wolves a couple of jolly good kickins. Sorry.

 

I know that overall the alphas come out on top, I'm just hoping things come across as more even when the novels reach that point. Id hate for any legion to run rough shod over another.

 

On a side not ferrum, where do you see your boys fitting into the scheme of things in this seven year war? I know they received a kicking at istvaan but primarch or no primarch, I don't really see medusans taking a back seat

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Great question, Kraine. I guess that's up to the HH team. Personally, I would like to see them basically scatter into the component Clans and follow on behind the line of Horus' advance, mucking things up in the Traitors' backfield. Specifically, the one big battle they have left is Tallarn -- the largest tank battle in Imperial history, against the Iron Warriors. At the very least, that fight deserves its own book.

[Marshal Rohr]

It is rarely a good idea for writers to write novels about specific battles. See the Space Marine Battles series. Following characters through a war, yes. But just having an orgy of tanks ramming each other seems silly when read.

[The emperors chosen]

Aside from Tallarn, what did the Iron Hands do in the heresy? To my knowledge there isn't much written about them, which is a good thing, as it allows for other authors to come up with new stories for them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It is rarely a good idea for writers to write novels about specific battles. See the Space Marine Battles series. Following characters through a war, yes. But just having an orgy of tanks ramming each other seems silly when read.

 

Oh yeah, novels for specific battles is a horrible idea! The representation of the purging of the Traitor Legions at Istvaan III in Galaxy of Flames? Horrible. The Drop Site description in Fulgrim? Pathetic. The ambush at Calth's representation in Know No Fear? Pshaw!

 

Now, if you're saying that doing a book for a battle without any supporting stories through the series, then I ask forgiveness for my flippancy because you've got a decent point there. Considering the general lack of information on the Iron Hands during the Heresy, however, it falls to reason that they should get a little more fleshing out before the series is over, so Tallarn plus another novel involving the characters depicted therein that takes place either immediately before and after Tallarn would make a lot of sense.

 

 

Aside from Tallarn, what did the Iron Hands do in the heresy? To my knowledge there isn't much written about them, which is a good thing, as it allows for other authors to come up with new stories for them.

 

Because there isn't. Remember the old timeline, from when the Index Astartes articles were about the most in-depth stuff on the Heresy: it only lasted two years from Istvaan V to Terra. In that time, there wasn't enough time for the Legions devastated at Istvaan to get involved, so the only Heresy-era fluff on the X Legion was Istvaan. With the elongated, seven-year timeline, however, we should see some new lore on the subject.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Iron Hands who didn't quite make it to Isstvaan were directly in the path of the Sons of Horus on their march to Terra. For reference see Little Horus in Age of Darkness.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

There were some there, yes, but the strike force in Little Horus was primarily White Scars. I very much doubt that the entire Legion was there.

[Wrath of Terra]

Finished it today.

 

First things first, Thorpe has come on in leaps and bounds since the bad old days. One of his earlier works (Last Chancers perhaps) was about Guard set on Armageddon and it was painful.

 

Whereas with this book I'd never have guessed it was him if I hadn't known beforehand so kudos to him for that.

 

Overall though I'd rank it as somewhere in the middle of the HH series - better than Abyss, Nemesis and co but a long way off the best.

 

In the pros;

 

I did like Corax an awful lot even though he could have been a bit more "primarchy".

 

I liked that the mutated Raptors were still fanatically loyal to the Imperium despite being remarked as looking very similar to demonic Word Bearers.

 

I liked the hall of relics where the Emperor treasured human discoveries most of all, not battle honours.

 

Corax and Dorn getting some scenes together was nice.

 

The Raven Guard initially being offended at the Fists telling them the new beakie armour was called Corvus pattern was funny.

 

Corax keeping around the old woman who was a childhood friend of his and trusting her more than some of his commanders was a nice, humanising touch as I always had Corax down as one of the more human primarchs outside of battle.

 

Corax kicking some ass near the end was also fun. Especially him getting right in the Word Bearers commanders face before "decloaking" was good and sinister.

 

Cons;

 

More could have been done to emphasis the hit and run nature of the Raven Guard's tactics.

 

The Alpharius and Horus, Erebus, and Abaddon scene irked me too. Thorpe does have a tendency to make his villains a little pantomime. In that Armageddon book I mentioned earlier the renegade Imperial governor, Von Strab, was so pantomime he actually shot a messenger and was practically twirling a villainous moustache in every scene.

 

It was annoying that getting the gene tech out of the Emperor's lab was far harder (and longer) than actually making next generation marines who mature in days and have all sorts of bells and whistles.

 

The Therions bugged me. A reasonable chunk of the early part was about their sacrifice, mourning them and replacing them. Only for no mention of them then until right at the end when they showed up to be convenient, faceless redshirts to highlight how great the Raven Guard were.

[Retributis]

Yeah I didn't quite understand why the Therions were just sent in to get shot to pieces and then fall back. It felt remarkably unsubtle of the RG.

[EPK]

Sorry if this has been talked about already, I'm lazy and didn't read through all 8 pages...

 

Anywho, I feel like I missed something.

 

Omegon took the Primarch-gene material, correct? Did I miss a page or something? If it was missing, why was there no reaction by Corax and his lot, not even a mention of it missing? Did the Alpha Legion Agents manage to plant a fake, did I read something wrong? Next thing I know, he's giving a speech and they are off to the Perfect Fortress.

[Master_Justinian]

Read it. Didn't like it, for the same reason I didn't like The Outcast Dead.

 

For ONCE in an HH book, I'd like to see the pay-off match the set-up.

[Israfel]

Although it had a few good moments, I'm not very fond of this book. It is an Alpha Legion book masquerading as a Ravenguard book... The Alphas are omnipotent, the Ravens are emo...

 

All the tragedy of Corax has been completely wiped out and I personally do not see any reasons for him to leave his legion now. He did not go to inappropraite means to revive his legion, he was simply sabotaged...

[Retributis]

So you just wanted the one Raven Guard book then?

 

Or do you want there to be several books that tell an over-arching story that will undoubtedly result in something far more tragic occurring?

[Darkchild130]

I kind of assumed that after losing the precious gene-tech, Corax would eventually succumb to temptation and start using clones, then the real tragedy would occur.

 

that would make sense in my head.

I agree with others here that the stealthy aspects of the RG were not utilised enough, especially with the first generation raptors effectively acting as hyper efficient kamikaze warriors.

 

Overall I thoroughly enjoyed the book, but I always have been a fan of Gav's writing.

 

Darkchild

[Veteran Sergeant]

Question about the implications of when the Emperor meets Corax for the first time and the whole 'Russ and the Mission Legions' speculation:

 

Does anyone know the order in which the Primarchs were recovered? Even better, has there ever been a timeline indicated of how long that process took?

 

I ask because...

 

 

When Corax is reunited with the Emperor, the Emperor mentions him having 17 brothers. Corax asks why he was numbered '19' if there's only 18 of them, and the Emperor replies that the fate of two of the Primarchs is best left for later.

 

Throughout the HH series, it's been implied that the Space Wolves are responsible for one or both of the missing legions' demise. I think most have presumed this occurred at some point during the Great Crusade 'proper', given the implication that most if not all of the Primarchs are around to know of it (i.e. Russ was there to lead the Wolves, the two missing Primarchs were there to be eliminated (or whatever), and when it's come up, the other Primarchs typically act/speak as if they knew the missing two and know what Russ did to them - i.e. had also been found and reunited and taking part in the GC).

 

But the above passage indicates that the two legions, or at least their Primarchs, were dealt with before Corax was discovered, and Corax spent about ten years on Deliverance before the Emperor came. Was he among the last Primarchs to be recovered? Because I'm trying to jive the existing impression given by the HH novels with this specific detail, and the only way it reconciles for me is if Corax was amongst the last of the primarchs to be found. I've tried searching online, but other than Horus (possibly) being the first recovered, I haven't found info on either Corax' place in the recovery timeline or any general overall timeline of this.

I'm with you on this.

It solidifies my belief that the missing legions actually don't exist (in the real world). That there's no unified vision of what happened to them, only the rough guideline that they are gone and aren't supposed to be talked about. Because we know that both Lorgar and Magnus "witnessed" the dissolution of at least one, probably both, of them. It leaves a distressingly smaller timeframe for it to happen. It also seems to present a problem accounting for the missing Space Marines. We know there had to have been the 2nd and 11th Legions, because the legions all existed before the Primarchs were found. But now there is less and less time for something to have happened to them. But we know some of the other primarchs witnessed whatever happened and some did not (at least Corax and Alpharius).

 

[Veteran Sergeant]

Read it. Didn't like it, for the same reason I didn't like The Outcast Dead.

 

For ONCE in an HH book, I'd like to see the pay-off match the set-up.

There does seem to be an alarming amount of missing climax in these books. It's understood that they are part of a larger series, but a lot of the books feel like they aren't self contained. Even The Empire Strikes Back one of the most famous (and at the time, hated) cliffhanger endings to a film, still had a self contained story, and can sit as its own film. I noticed this with KNF. A lot of build-up, a lot of suspense, and then an ending that just sort of "happens" and you only realize, once the book runs out of pages, that that must have been the end.

[Ashur]

All the tragedy of Corax has been completely wiped out and I personally do not see any reasons for him to leave his legion now. He did not go to inappropraite means to revive his legion, he was simply sabotaged...

 

I completely agree.

We could have seen Corax roaming his tower, desperatly hearing the yells of his mutant creations, guiding them to war like a pack of rabid dogs, full of self-hatred and hatred for the ennemy. Instead, he accept them inmediately, and all the gruesome aspect of the story is gone.

[DarkGuard]

Finished reading it the other night, thought it was very good, return to form for the HH series after Outcast Dead.

 

 

My favourite parts of it has to be the way in which the Alpha Legion operatives were written, you couldn't be sure which was which, who sabotaged the geneseed, who was leading the Raptor squad, who was doing this or that. You were given one from the beginning and made to guess if he was talking about the others throughout the book which was fantastic. Also a huge surprise to me that Agapito wasn't an infiltrator, good work from the other commander there, had me fooled.

 

Also really liked how the geneseed project and it's failure was done, good old Alpha Legion, and Omegon was pretty good in this book, loved the bit at the end when he slipped away, wasn't sure whether I was wanting him to win or not, knowing that the Alpha Legion or sort of working for the Emperor's goal or whatever.

 

 

All in all thoroughly enjoyed it, now started Know No Fear which has gripped me already.

[Conn Eremon]

Question about the implications of when the Emperor meets Corax for the first time and the whole 'Russ and the Mission Legions' speculation:

 

Does anyone know the order in which the Primarchs were recovered? Even better, has there ever been a timeline indicated of how long that process took?

 

I ask because...

 

 

When Corax is reunited with the Emperor, the Emperor mentions him having 17 brothers. Corax asks why he was numbered '19' if there's only 18 of them, and the Emperor replies that the fate of two of the Primarchs is best left for later.

 

Throughout the HH series, it's been implied that the Space Wolves are responsible for one or both of the missing legions' demise. I think most have presumed this occurred at some point during the Great Crusade 'proper', given the implication that most if not all of the Primarchs are around to know of it (i.e. Russ was there to lead the Wolves, the two missing Primarchs were there to be eliminated (or whatever), and when it's come up, the other Primarchs typically act/speak as if they knew the missing two and know what Russ did to them - i.e. had also been found and reunited and taking part in the GC).

 

But the above passage indicates that the two legions, or at least their Primarchs, were dealt with before Corax was discovered, and Corax spent about ten years on Deliverance before the Emperor came. Was he among the last Primarchs to be recovered? Because I'm trying to jive the existing impression given by the HH novels with this specific detail, and the only way it reconciles for me is if Corax was amongst the last of the primarchs to be found. I've tried searching online, but other than Horus (possibly) being the first recovered, I haven't found info on either Corax' place in the recovery timeline or any general overall timeline of this.

I'm with you on this.

It solidifies my belief that the missing legions actually don't exist (in the real world). That there's no unified vision of what happened to them, only the rough guideline that they are gone and aren't supposed to be talked about. Because we know that both Lorgar and Magnus "witnessed" the dissolution of at least one, probably both, of them. It leaves a distressingly smaller timeframe for it to happen. It also seems to present a problem accounting for the missing Space Marines. We know there had to have been the 2nd and 11th Legions, because the legions all existed before the Primarchs were found. But now there is less and less time for something to have happened to them. But we know some of the other primarchs witnessed whatever happened and some did not (at least Corax and Alpharius).

 

 

It's all easily cleared up when you think about how Corax, and his brothers, reached their respective homeworlds. They all got sucked up into the Warp at the same time, but it's never been said that they left the Warp at the same time. Some of them could have been still in the Warp while others are being found. Consider the Lion, who was found close to the end of the Great Crusade, and he wasn't even the last one found. Crusade lasted 200 years, and yet Horus was found almost immediately. Meaning Horus was found a full century and more before the Lion landed on his homeworld. Though I think it was a good fifteen to twenty years before Corax was discovered, not ten. He meets that one girl, who's like just under five, when he's found. By the end of it rebellion she's fully grown.

[deepsix81]

Not sure if this has already been covered, but after reading Know No Fear and thinking about the upcoming World Eaters stories I have a quick question about the genetic manipulations that we were introduced to for the primarchs. What would each primarch's 'enhancement' be?

 

For some it is fairly obvious in the context of the Heresy history or spelled out in Deliverance directly. But does each of the primarchs even have a special trait that is genetic? It seems that many of the attributes that make them superhuman and unique are more due to their environment and where they were raised as opposed to something inherently genetic.

 

Example:

Guilliman's logical nature and diplomatic bent was due to his being raised by the warrior kings of his homeworld. What would have been his (for lack of a better term) superpower?

 

Was Angron genetically engineered to be stronger (guessing) than his brothers, or was this the result of his upbringing as a slave fighter?

[Conn Eremon]

Not sure if this has already been covered, but after reading Know No Fear and thinking about the upcoming World Eaters stories I have a quick question about the genetic manipulations that we were introduced to for the primarchs. What would each primarch's 'enhancement' be?

 

For some it is fairly obvious in the context of the Heresy history or spelled out in Deliverance directly. But does each of the primarchs even have a special trait that is genetic? It seems that many of the attributes that make them superhuman and unique are more due to their environment and where they were raised as opposed to something inherently genetic.

 

Example:

Guilliman's logical nature and diplomatic bent was due to his being raised by the warrior kings of his homeworld. What would have been his (for lack of a better term) superpower?

 

Was Angron genetically engineered to be stronger (guessing) than his brothers, or was this the result of his upbringing as a slave fighter?

 

Well, the genetics thing is entirely something physical, something that's changed their body or the manner in which it works. Which Guilliman's logical/diplomatic bent is not. So yeah, what makes him most unique is thanks to growing up in the Roman Space Senate.

 

What Guilliman had beyond that, I don't know. Likely, something subtle. Not all of them were incredibly obvious changes, like Leman Russ or Sanguinius. Perturabo's was just to grant him an easier capability of adding extra mechanical appendages, which is not physically obvious and merely influenced his predilection to bionics. Guilliman and Horus might very well not even have anything extra going for them. They might very well be the pure strain, sort of like the control subjects that the others were compared to.

 

However, I believe that if there was any Primarch specifically tuned for increased strength it'd be Vulkan. If I recall correctly, he was the most physically powerful of his brothers. Or possibly Magnus, considering he was the biggest of them. Though it'd be rather odd to have the enhanced psychic and physical strength all in one Primarch.

 

If I had to take a guess, though, on the Primarchs not mentioned in DL, I'd say that Mortarion's quirk is simply enhanced constitution.

[Billuriye]

Example:

Guilliman's logical nature and diplomatic bent was due to his being raised by the warrior kings of his homeworld. What would have been his (for lack of a better term) superpower?

 

Was Angron genetically engineered to be stronger (guessing) than his brothers, or was this the result of his upbringing as a slave fighter?

 

I think nature presses more heavily than nurture in Primarchs. Guilliman may be a multitasking monstrosity even before crashing to Macragge. Same with Angron being a fighter without equal. Or a already a cautious Curze crashing into Nostramo. Chaos was pretty considerate while sending Primarchs to their homeworlds.

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman was probably more of a visionary, which combined with his meticulus attention to detail and planning, makes him a great leader and able to build the Imperium's perfect societies.

 

How much of it is genetic is debateable. It's certainly a natural talent of his (you don't just learn to be that obsessive about every detail like he was, because no one could have taught him that - besides he's from planet Sparta!), but it's certainly fair to say personality is influenced by a Primarch's growing up.

 

Hard one to call, with the truth likely being subtle but significant (as in a slight leaning towards a particular trait implanted in them).

[Chowda]

Like with all the HH books, I give my gut reaction after reading it and then go back in the thread and find out why I am wrong:

 

I was really into this book, but I thought it stalled once they got back home. I probably read the first 3/4 in under a week, but took two months to finish. I just felt it got a tad cartoon-y and the ending was anticlimactic. It's almost as if the whole book was to tell about the origin of the raptors more than the fate of the story of the Raven Guard who were compromised beyond belief by infiltration.