what's our range?

[doctorme]

I haven’t been playing as many games as I’d like to lately, but in the ones I have I’m noticing a new trend. It used to be that codex marines could tear up just about anyone in a fire fight inside 24’ that was my bread and butter. But now with space wolves, grey knights, and dark eldar I find myself wishing I had more long range weapons. Is this just me or has the optimal loadout for C:SM become a little more long ranged then it was. I’m not saying we’re a long range army now but have those weapons become a little more important to us?

[Hellios]

I haven’t been playing as many games as I’d like to lately, but in the ones I have I’m noticing a new trend. It used to be that codex marines could tear up just about anyone in a fire fight inside 24’ that was my bread and butter. But now with space wolves, grey knights, and dark eldar I find myself wishing I had more long range weapons. Is this just me or has the optimal loadout for C:SM become a little more long ranged then it was. I’m not saying we’re a long range army now but have those weapons become a little more important to us?

 

the old GK codex was sub par... Now it might be slightly OTT but they are armed with a storm bolter as their standard weapon while you have a bolter... they are also better at combat and thanks to the storm bolter.... more mobile.

 

Space Wolves are pretty much marines anyway and they were always a CQC army... (Basically they are good at close range combat... but they don't always want to be in assault... they can bring some range also...)

 

Dark Eldar again could beat Marines in a fire fight and then might try and mop you in combat... It was all about them crippling you early before you can cripple them... Which if you need to get close with the list you use might mean you want some more long range dakka...

 

It is true that while melta is popular more people are taking more missiles and auto-cannon for the range and volume of fire when it comes to dealing with light vehicles... Melta still helps with AV14!

[DarkGuard]

I like to think that Space Marines are flexible across all ranges, I like to think that, but I could be wrong. Against the armies that have been described you are better off sticking back with autocannons and missile launchers before heading in for the kill. Against armies like Imperial Guard and Tau however, you want to close and get into rapid fire range and maybe even combat. Basically you need to have the flexibility to take on any army at the game they don't like, so being able to cover a wide band of ranges would be preferable.

[ak-73]

I haven’t been playing as many games as I’d like to lately, but in the ones I have I’m noticing a new trend. It used to be that codex marines could tear up just about anyone in a fire fight inside 24’ that was my bread and butter. But now with space wolves, grey knights, and dark eldar I find myself wishing I had more long range weapons. Is this just me or has the optimal loadout for C:SM become a little more long ranged then it was. I’m not saying we’re a long range army now but have those weapons become a little more important to us?

 

Yes. We are a mid to long-range army. It's a bit hard to make such a classification because it's all relative. But what can vanillas bring that other marine armies can't? Cheap mass Preds, Dreads & Razorbacks across the slots. Even Typhoons if you are thus inclined and have enough melta somewhere else. GK are mid-range, BA's vehicles are fast but more expensive, SW don't have Elite slot dreads.

 

Alex

[Wulf Vengis]

SW Dreads are the same as yours. Dread and Ven Dread both ELITES. We also have Bjorn a special character dread that fills and HQ slot (of which we have 4).

 

We prefer the mid range combat 12-24 inches, as our Grey Hunters are arguably one of the best tactical choices in PA. But we can definitely bring the long range game in the form of our Long Fangs six wolves five with heavy wepons firing at up 2 targets per turn so long as the squad leader doesnt fire. Or the assault game in the form of Thunder Wolvs or Wolf Guard as well.

[Warp Angel]

Vanilla Marines bring tactical flexibility. If you build your army well, you can fight at the range of your choosing and take advantage of your opponent's weaknesses.

 

Other Marine codexes, including GK and Chaos, tend to have a lower model count or a "hole" in their game that can be exploited through effective play. That's not to say that it's EASY, or if the dice go badly for you that tactics will always bring victory, but rather that we can do things that they can't because we are versatile.

 

BA are best played aggressively - draw them in to the targets of your choosing and take advantage of their lower model count by concentrating your firepower and widening a kill gap faster than they do.

 

Wolves are similar to Vanilla and a bit harder to find exploitable weaknesses unless they go over the top on a particular build aspect. But they tend to lack long range firepower in most builds, which is something that you can take advantage of.

 

Chaos GK builds are usually low model count to be effective and lack maneuverability in the mid and late game. Isolate and kill whole units at once, focus in on the immediate threats and prevent them from opening a kill gap in the first place.

 

Necrons and Guard are assaultable in most cases, so do so. When they aren't assaultable, rely on range and superior firepower on those units. The trick here is understanding that you're going to take casualties to create victory opportunities and accepting it. Tau are pretty much the same, but weaker in most respects.

 

Dark Eldar, well played, are a tough foe to face. They're faster than you, can isolate bits of your army and out shoot you, and have the ability to wreck you in hand to hand in the late game if they preserve key units. The trick with them is finding the and neutralizing the biggest threats and bringing down the house of cards before they can smack you.

 

Regular Eldar are a house of cards as well. Find their strengths and neutralize them, mop up the rest of the army at your leisure. Don't let them isolate you with their fast units and you should do fine.

 

I haven't struggled with nids at all in the new codex because I can pick and choose how and where they get to fight more often than not, and once deployed, they are a predictable force with few tactical options available during play. The opposite of Marines who can usually figure some way to throw a wrench in the enemy's plans.

 

I have not played much against Daemons (tabled them every time - their deep strike mechanic is horrible for competitive play) or at all against the revised sisters.

 

Orks come in three flavors - Mech, Bike, and Horde. All require different tactics to defeat, but most of the builds can be made predictable. Like when against Guard, you're going to take casualties, but in doing so, you can set up victory for yourself.

 

Your mileage may vary, but I love the flexibility of the Vanilla codex and the "all comers" lists I can build with it that can give me a reasonable chance of victory against all other opponents. I never see a "bad matchup" like I do with Guard or Orks.

[doctorme]

Thanks for that excellent description of opponents and how to take advantage of them

 

I agree with warp angel, no question the strength of marines is playing to your opponents weakness. What I was trying to say, and maybe poorly is that I think the meta has shifted in the last year or so and that now that weakness is more often long range shooting.

[ak-73]

SW Dreads are the same as yours. Dread and Ven Dread both ELITES. We also have Bjorn a special character dread that fills and HQ slot (of which we have 4).

 

Right. What you don't have though is long-range firepower in your Troops slot (other than the Razorback). And you regularly sacrifice one Elite slot for Wolf Guards. Space Wolves can certainly build a very shoot army but given they are quite strong in melee too, builds are normally not max-out long-range firepower lists.

 

 

Alex

[doctorme]

this is a good point. is long range shooting the way c:sm can beat wolves, or are we worse then them even at that.

[ak-73]

The Wolves have more possibilities, they can go from very shooty to shooty and choppy, the latter being more common. If so, de-mech the Wolves with superior firepower and degrade them sufficiently before they can bring their troops to you. Rifleman dreads and Predators are good at popping rhinos and razorbacks and can put a number of wounds on infantry too. You can also use to your advantage that their gry hunters don't have heavy weapons. 1 or 2 Plasma cannons on clustered GHs that have been shot out of their Razorbacks or Rhinos can hurt them well. You just have to have more than autocannons and plasma cannons at range though or else their LasPlas Backs and Long Fangs might hurt.

 

It's hard to say how to beat Space Wolves because there's a number of very viable builds, most involve Long Fangs and Grey Hunters though.

 

Alex

[Ming]

The long and the short of it :)

 

SMs and their close bros the SWs seems to work best following old 80's 90's US Army tactics for mechanized units: Overwatch and maneuver elements. [compared to today's Army doctrine, where it seems everything is a maneuver unit or provides off-board support]

 

Try this thinking:

 

Units you plan to manuever (to take to mid or far objectives or assault) need just mid to short weapons and cc upgrades, as do their vehicles (smoke, EA, etc). Templates, meltaguns, plasmaguns, flamers, etc., stuff 24 inch or shorter range. Manuever vehicles are best as rhinos, redeemers, crusaders, vindicators, HF/MM dreads, etc. No need for long range firepower on the vehicles, as their job is to get in the short range. [what no razors in this element? yep, unless you have the MM or HF or AC versions...]

 

Overwatch elements and their vehicles need long range weaponry. Barrage, blast, heavy, las, twin linked, etc., 48 inch range or better, and place to cover the fire lanes and as much of the board or objectives as possible. Las or ML tac combat squad halves, ML scouts, ML devs, rifle dreads. Normal landraiders, TFCs, las razorbacks. [Razors here as their las is needed for long range support until late game when they can be used to grab mid or short range objectives]

 

There are a few marine weapons that fill the gap between 24 and 48 inch range (HBs, sniper rifles, dragonfire bolter ammo, PCs), if you use them, they still fit into either category, no sense in most games trying to convince you need a "mid range" unit.

 

And yes, the latest codexi (GKs, NECs, DE) are really pushing SMs and SWs around, as if someone really took a hard look at defeating us by both outshooting us or out-assaulting us (higher BS and higher range weapons and CC characters for necrons as an example). The latest trend is awesome for model sales for the new armies, just not good for us long time players with fairly well set collections.

[ak-73]

Of course with Marines being fairly expensive troops, the tactics isn't that simple because you can try to overload the enemy with a big support element and then push your tacticals into the face of the severely degraded enemy after 2 or 3 turns of shooting.

 

Conversely, if you run a Vulkan list, you might overload with the maneuver element and occupy midfield early against a host of enemy armies. Marines in transports are quite resilient if used on masse and the enemy might have trouble pushing you off of objectives.

 

And all this depends on the relative strengths of the armies facing off. In general most competitive vanilla builds will be shootier than most competitive space wolves builds. So the thought of being forced to degrade the space wolves before they make it to your side of the table holds generally true. You must study the enemy list and the mission/terrain though to properly read what is going on.

 

Alex

[doctorme]

So this thread has been a good tool for me so far, and to that end another question in my list building has come up and I feel it fits this threads topic. I am trying to decide between building my 2 new Land speeders with multi melta and nothing else, or heavy bolter and typhoon. The melta speeders are 60pts less as a pair and I would have no problem fitting them into most lists, or treating them as expendable. also I run Vulkan a lot so that adds value. The typhoons are much more and costly and I'm not sure about having two 90pt av 10 models, but they are better at long range and killing transports. Anyone else have this problem?