DIY Chapter Master

[Knurd]

Here is the Chapter Master for my DIY Chapter, Void Bloods (a BA Successor Chapter). Let me know what you think.

 

Melmoth Reinhardt ([i

6

5

4

4

3

5

3

10

2+\4++

HQ... 240 points

Unit Type: Jump Infantry Composition: 1(Unique)

Artificer Armour Void Reapers Jump Pack Frag and Krak Grenades Iron Halo Angel's Visage

ATSKNF DoA IC Seraphic Fury Tactical Precision Final Blessing

 

 

Wargear:

• Void Reapers: These are a matched pair of lightning claws. Each contains an integrated Angelus Boltgun attached to it (they are treated as twin-linked).
   
  
• Angel's Visage: See Death Mask in C:BA
  

Special Rules:

• Seraphic Fury: Any squad that is joined by Melmoth receives the Furious Charge rule.
   
  
• Tactical Precision: Melmoth (and his unit, if he has joined one and they have jump packs) does not scatter when it deploys by Deep Strike.
   
  
• Final Blessing: Melmoth’s Jump Pack has been fitted with a teleportation device that can be activated to teleport himself and allies to perform a strategic retreat.
   
  When Melmoth receives a blow that would kill him and fails all possible saves he can take an Initiative test, if passed he and any unit he has joined disengage from combat and can teleport to any location within 36” using deep strike rules. This ability may only be used once per game and cannot benefit from either Descent of Angels or Tactical Precision.
  

[Oiad]

I really like it. Good name, not to OTT rules. The Lightning claws seem like a very unique choice of weapon type, one that is missing on other BA characters. I'd probably just give him a normal Death Mask as Angel's Visage doesn't really add anything extra to it. Also, if Tactical Precision seems like a retread over Dante, you could always have Melmoth give his unit Heroic Intervention instead. I think it's special rule that didn't get enough coverage in C:BA.

[Knurd]

I was thinking about giving him HI but I thought it would be a bit much since I would be able to give it to the SG. Not to mention that I would also be able to add a SP and a Chap to the unit and benefit from HI. I like HI a lot but its a tricky rule considering you can make a unit very powerful with it.

 

I agree that Lightning Claws were largely absent in C:BA. I actually think I over did it with some of the special characters I'm creating.

 

As for Angel's Visage I just wanted to change the name since I am not going to be using a Death Mask, I am going to be using the winged helm that the unit in Calgar's HG has so I wanted to change the name to something fitting, but I see your point. Once I start working on the model I will post pictures.

 

Thanks for the feedback. Is the points cost ok?

[Oiad]

• Angelic Visage: Perhaps it could affect another element of close-combat. i.e. Say it reduces enemy attack by -1 (to a minimum of 1) on a failed test, etc.
  Heroic Intervention: Yeah, you're probably right and I hasn't really thought it through. It could possible suit a non-IC character much better.
  

[Knurd]

Well you can always give it to an IC, he can either go solo or join a VV squad if he wants a squad with HI. I just don't think anyone would le tyou play it if he gave it a squad he joined, I know I wouldn't. :)

 

Now as Angelic Visage maybe i can add something like take a Ld test and if you fail it -1 WS, that's not a bad idea.

[Knurd]

*bump* Any other feedback on this character?

[Race Bannon]

For what he can do I'd think the cost would be closer to 300 points. In my opinion.

[Knurd]

300 points to me seem to be too much. Below is how I costed him out, let me know if I missed something or disagree with something.

 

125 pts - Chapter Master from C:SM

30 pts - Pair of Lightning Claws (priced from Captain from C:BA)

20 pts - Master-crafted Angelus Boltgun (estimate)

5 pts - Death Mask (from SG divided by 5)

15 pts - Artificer armour (Chapter Master from C:SM)

25 pts - Jump Pack (Captain from C: BA)

 

This all adds up to 220 points. I really don't think Seraphic Fury, Tactical Precision, and Final Blessing would add up to 80 points especially considering that he loses out on Orbital Bombardment that comes standard on the CM. He also does not have any special rules that changes the dynamics of the army.

[Araith]

Since he has no Orbital Bombardment I suggest using the Captain's 100 points as a base price.

20 points for an angelus boltgun? I'd say 10 is enough.

The death mask I would rate at 10 points to include an opportunity cost of having the death mask ability in the first place (in a Sanguinary Guard unit one mask more or less doesn't matter; adding the effect in a unit that otherwise wouldn't have it is much more valuable).

Seraphic Fury... 10-20 points? Cheaper than I would normally suggest because of the easy access this codex already has to the Furious Charge special rule.

Tactical Precision is a good ability, though here too there is a mitigating factor in Descent of Angels. 10-20 points I'd say.

Final Blessing is an ability I find hard to rate. If I read it right this ability will actually save him and making use of this ability is voluntary (you may also choose to let him die and let his unit stick around). All that is very good. Perhaps 30 points? But as I said, I find it hard to rate this.

 

With these estimates I arrive at 240-260 points.

[Oiad]

Generally this kind of calculation, using the army list section as your points index doesn't work. Have you ever tried figuring out how special characters like Coteaz would cost using this method? Sometimes characters end up being very under-priced. Saying that I'm really confused how RB got an estimate of 300pts regardless...

 

@Insein: You have a minor error in Seraphic Fury. Was Sebastian the previous name of the character?

[Araith]

Basing pricing on costs elsewhere in the codex or in other codices certainly has its faults and can lead both to seriously under-priced and seriously overpriced units, but you have to base yourself on something. Using costs elsewhere as a starting point is IMO a good practice, as long as you then judge the result. Basically, where else can you start?

[Knurd]

I totally get what everyone is saying as far as you can't just use rules and equipment at face value, I just thought 300 points were way too much. Sometimes a character is more than the sum of its parts sometimes less. The list I put up what more of a base for my character which is why I wanted some feedback on it since more than one set of eyes and opinions helps. I know opinions will vary but you can always find a middle ground. I definitely do not want to make the next coming of the Sanguinius but I do want to make him unique and fluffy.

 

@Araith - he would also not have access to C:SMs Honour Guard so I agree that the Captain is a better choice for base stats. I agree with the pricing you gave and yes Final Blessing would be optional so 30 points sounds reasonable. I wanted to not make him so squishy without giving him Eternal Warrior which does seem to be a bit overused and this way it gives a little more personality to my character.

 

@Oiad - Yes, originally his name was Sebastian Melmoth but I decided against that and the error has been fixed, thank you. I'm naming my characters after Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles and Sebastion Melmoth was one of Lestat's aliases.

[*Furyou Miko]

Looks cool to me. Balanced against himself and the other options in the codex.

 

For what he does (although you should bear in mind that I've been playing with the Necron book for the last couple of weeks, and my only other real reference is C:SoB) I'd put him around the 200-230 mark in terms of points.

[Oiad]

@Oiad - Yes, originally his name was Sebastian Melmoth but I decided against that and the error has been fixed, thank you. I'm naming my characters after Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles and Sebastion Melmoth was one of Lestat's aliases.

Interesting, I hadn't caught on to that. It's always intriguing to see if players can reference similar-themed sources when naming models/abilities, etc. Let me guess, Reinhardt is a reference to Castlevania?

 

EDIT: Repetition.

[Knurd]

Let me guess, Reinhardt is a reference to Castlevania?

 

Yes lol. I'm embracing the vampire theme of the Blood Angels.

[Race Bannon]

Of course 300 points is too much ;)

 

But costing out the unit based on each item is a base to start. After that, the whole unit should be considered when it's "working". This guy is a well-designed and clean beast. Let's review ...

 

4 attacks standing still, +1 if he charges, +1 due to paired LC, and Furious Charge = 6 power weapon attacks that can re-roll to wound at Str 5 (and guarantee a hit on a 3+ thanks to the mask) on the charge. He'll more than likely strike first (FC) too.

 

On top of that, the bolters are slightly better due to twin-linked.

 

THEN, he's packing a 2+/4++ for standing defense with a "get out of jail" card for not only him, but his unit. Btw, is the landing point your choice? Oh, he, and a JP unit, doesn't scatter to deep strike (excepting Final Blessing - at least that was a one-use item).

 

Humbly speaking, 20 points above base cost is too cheap ... to me.

 

In the end, I do think this character is an elegant build :P And the points is typically a note of contention around here for obvious reasons. I'm in the camp that recommends paying more points as a "cost to creativity" because base costs is not enough and special rules are not easily calculable (I mean,how much IS Furious Charge worth?) AND I'm not your opponent, it'll be up to them to agree to your construction. If you are happy with it, and the OpFor player is too, then rock on. ;)

[Araith]

I hadn't seen he has 4 attacks on his profile. If he were a Wolf Lord he'd be paying an extra 25 points for that.

[Race Bannon]

Hmm, the difference between a CM and Cpt is OB and the backup unit: Honor Guard or Command Squad.

 

So, removing OB is a step in saving points, but keeping the Honor Guard option sort of matters. Again though, OB + HG = 25 points? So how much is OB alone? It's tough ...

[Knurd]

Of course 300 points is too much ;)

 

But costing out the unit based on each item is a base to start. After that, the whole unit should be considered when it's "working". This guy is a well-designed and clean beast. Let's review ...

 

4 attacks standing still, +1 if he charges, +1 due to paired LC, and Furious Charge = 6 power weapon attacks that can re-roll to wound at Str 5 (and guarantee a hit on a 3+ thanks to the mask) on the charge. He'll more than likely strike first (FC) too.

 

On top of that, the bolters are slightly better due to twin-linked.

 

THEN, he's packing a 2+/4++ for standing defense with a "get out of jail" card for not only him, but his unit. Btw, is the landing point your choice? Oh, he, and a JP unit, doesn't scatter to deep strike (excepting Final Blessing - at least that was a one-use item).

 

Humbly speaking, 20 points above base cost is too cheap ... to me.

 

In the end, I do think this character is an elegant build :D And the points is typically a note of contention around here for obvious reasons. I'm in the camp that recommends paying more points as a "cost to creativity" because base costs is not enough and special rules are not easily calculable (I mean,how much IS Furious Charge worth?) AND I'm not your opponent, it'll be up to them to agree to your construction. If you are happy with it, and the OpFor player is too, then rock on. :D

 

Wow I didn't notice that, he is only supposed to have 3 attacks +1 for the dual LC.

 

-As Araith mentioned in an earlier post I think it should be based on the Capt instead of the CM since they are pretty much the same except for Orbital Bombardment and access to HG, (BA HG are actually Command Squads). That would put him at 195 base points.

 

-I completely agree that a unit should be costed as they play.

 

-That was changed to 3 attacks.

 

-I could always make that single shots.... its just my OCD trying to make the character symmetrical lol.

 

-Final Blessing does give him the "get out of jail free" card and I'm willing to pay a premium for that. I just wanted something different than EW. The landing is currently my choice and he scatters the full 2d6 since he cannot benefit from DoA or TP.

[Race Bannon]

I dig symmetry :lol: How much do you think twin-linking a weapon should cost? In my head it's base cost of a single weapon x3.

 

What would make Final Blessing more palatable (and maybe "fun" depending on your point of view) is that the teleporter is a fickle device ... say random distance in a direction of your choice then regular Deep Strike to land?

[Knurd]

What would make Final Blessing more palatable (and maybe "fun" depending on your point of view) is that the teleporter is a fickle device ... say random distance in a direction of your choice then regular Deep Strike to land?

 

Originally I wanted to use the scatter dice and have him move 3d6 in whatever direction the dice came up as but I decided against it because this can be used as Hit & Run. Considering that he has FC that could be a bit much even if it is just a one time use. Maybe I can make it 3d6 scatter that way he has a good chance of landindg outside of assault range.

[Oiad]

Considering the update and a long think over the subject, 240pts is probably near-spot on.

 

Basing pricing on costs elsewhere in the codex or in other codices certainly has its faults and can lead both to seriously under-priced and seriously overpriced units, but you have to base yourself on something. Using costs elsewhere as a starting point is IMO a good practice, as long as you then judge the result. Basically, where else can you start?

It is somewhere to start but you also need to take into consideration that comparisons to similar character models can achieve, cohesion with other army units and undertake some playtesting to round it out. Also, I believe in certain circumstances such as if the character hardly provides nothing new compared to what a vanilla HQ model can also potentially achieve through purchases then you need to give it a small discount as an incentive to take him. Otherwise it ends up being a waste of space. Not that it would really be the case here...

[Race Bannon]

It is somewhere to start but you also need to take into consideration that comparisons to similar character models can achieve, cohesion with other army units and undertake some playtesting to round it out. Also, I believe in certain circumstances such as if the character hardly provides nothing new compared to what a vanilla HQ model can also potentially achieve through purchases then you need to give it a small discount as an incentive to take him. Otherwise it ends up being a waste of space. Not that it would really be the case here...

 

But the incentive to take him is what prompted its creation and presentation ... there should not be any discount whatsoever because the *user* would want it. But it's the opponent that has to deal with the design, thus there has to be some good with the bad. As the player facing against this unit, it's easier to accept when the creator paid for it beyond the expected math.

 

At the same time, being based at the Captain level now makes the points cost more reasonable because 45 points is spent on special abilities and "extra". My druthers would have his points at 260. It's arbitrarily just a bit higher than Calgar in TDA.

[Oiad]

Eh? It's not like you'd be asking for any unusual extras. When it's a character that can be built using the normal codex options, creation and presentation are nothing but sheen. If your opponent can't see through the glitter of the fluff and has the cheek to ask you to pay extra then they're a lost cause. They may as well ask to charge you extra points if you have a better painted army. Unless your intention is hand over free advantages you'd always be better off treating it as the generic codex model and just give it an 'unofficial moniker' instead. At least a regular HQ comes with options to diversify between games. That you're otherwise designing a non-upgradable version to possibly be used over multiple games should instead provide some minor leeway in curbing its cost slightly, if any. An opponent wishing to penalise you for just naming a model it isn't worth their salt.

 

As for the comparison to Calgar, I don't think this character is quite on the same level. While some may judge Reinhardt's abilities to put him somewhere above Dante, all he really does is gut out half of Dante's itinerary to replace it with half a SangPriest + Lightning Claws. By comparison Calgar brings unique (and I feel underrated) abilities to the C:SM army. In addition, Calgar is generally both the stronger/more-diverse threat at range & in close-combat.