Emergency Disembarkation

[SeattleDV8]

MODELS IN THE WAY

A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size. A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phase, this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

 

The 'gap' rule only applies to 'friendly models'

The rule also never mentions the end of movement, the entire move has to be 1" away from enemy models, similar to a scout move which has to remain 12" away from an enemy thoughout the move.

The assault rules doesn't apply as they have a special over-rule.

Although the Emergency Disembarkation rules seem to also over-rule the 1" rule the FAQ tells us that it does not, we must use the normal movement rules.

In this case the embarked unit would be destroyed, as a 1" gap would not allow llegal movement though them.

[maturin]

I agree with SeattleDV8 on all counts.

 

If p.11 said "A model may not end its move within 1" of an enemy model..." then I'd agree with dswanick, but it doesn't.

 

You must stay 1" away from enemy models at all times when moving.

[dswanick]

Wow, I'm glad I've never encountered an opponent who actually interpreted the rule that way. So you guys are saying that a squad of 10 tacticals spaced 2" apart in a conga-line would effectively be a 30" long impenetrable wall preventing a bike model from passing through the line during a turbo-boost? Does that seem like a reasonable interpretation of the rule to you two? So let's re-read the rule again considering your interpretation:

MODELS IN THE WAY

A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size.

A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not

move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

First, why does the rule say "A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model" if you can't move within 1" of an enemy model at any time (thus can't get close enough to move through its base)? Further, why state "into or through" at all? Because if moving "through" a space is equivalent to "into" a space then there is no need to be redundant. Also, notice the text in parenthesis, it clearly tells us that the "space occupied" is equal to its base or hull, no more. If this sentence were the whole of the rule it would be crystal clear - moving through the gap would be legal. It is the second sentence which seems to generate disagreement.

 

The 1" rule is a game mechanic to prevent confusion as to what models are or are not in base contact denoting being locked in assault, clarifying that "A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases ". Models may not touch unless Assaulting, that's the rule. Here the rule is stated in the present tense "A model cannot move so that it touches..during the Movement and Shooting phases" and "the models may not be touching". If the gap between two models is greater than the moving models base it doesn't touch those models and the 1" rule clarifies this situation by impossing a gap between models not locked in assault of 1". It is clearly indicated that models are not in base contact by keeping them 1" apart, but that is about their final position not their movement.

 

So in my example of the bike and the tac squad the bike moves 24" from one side of the unit to the other, it doesn't touch any bases along the way (preserving the "may not move through models" rules) and ends more than 1" away from the tacs (preserving the 1" rule because it is not locked in assault with them). Claiming anything more is, in my opinion, an overly harsh interpretation of the rules which doesn't fit well with the wording of the rule read as a whole.

[dswanick]

On my way to work just now I had a thought. The point of debate in this thread is similar to ones in other threads relating to Jump ICs moving their full movement speed when detaching from a non-Jump Infantry unit and ICs detaching and reattaching to the same unit during its move by way of "I'm declaring I'm detaching and then using a bridge IC to reattach the two for an Assault Slingshot maneuver".

 

Specifically the question is this : does GW write its prohibitions and restrictions based on the assumption that all such restrictions will be applied at each moment of a models move or do they only restrict the final outcome of a move rendering it valid or invalid.

 

On the one side there is the argument the restrictions apply at each moment of the move - a Jump Infatry IC is restricted to moving 6" as it moves away from a non-Jump unit until it reaches the 2" Coherency moment of its move and then it suddenly gets a speed boost to its normal 12" non-attached move speed or an attached IC becomes detached at the moment of moving a declared Detachment move which is valid because that IC is found to be at 2"+ during its movement and a later reattachment is legal because the previously attached "moments" are no longer in effect.

 

On the other side is the argument that the restrictions are evaluated at the conclusion of the movements and only invalidate a movemenet which results in an illegal final alignment of models. The Jump Infantry IC moves 12" because it ends its move outside of the 2" coherency resulting in a detached IC or the Jump IC is limited to 6" of move for the turn because you don't evaluate the detachment until it ends its move outside 2" from the attached unit. The attached IC ends its movement attached to the unit it was attached to before the Move phase started therfore he never left the unit.

 

In this debate we are disagreeing on the same conditionals - does the 1" rule prevent a Move if any "moment" of the move is within 1" of an enemy model or is the 1" rule only evaluated at the conclusion of all related moves. The reason I argue the later is two-fold. First, I've argued in the other threads that the evaluation is performed at the conclusion of a Move to determine its legality, the same applies here. Second, other rules (ie. the Dangerous Terrain rules) clearly specify when they are to be evaluated at all points along a move by saying "Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move". Another example is the Impassible Terrain rule which tells you specifically "Impassable terrain cannot be moved across or into.". The would be no need to specificy both if the "into" condition were evaluated at each moment of the movement because to move "across" Impassible Terrain would necessitate several moments of having moved "into" it until the mlodel exited the other side.

To me, "moving within" implies a final condition not a momentary state along its path.

[Spacefrisian]

If by "completely surrounded" you mean scarabs were on all sides of the model such that his models bases could not fit between the scarabs bases - then yes, the disembarking was illegal.

If by "completely surround" you mean only that you had models on all sides such that his models would have ended up within 1" of your scarabs after legally moving his models between gaps in the bases - then yes, he was correct.

 

completely surrounding the rhino involved, I believe, seven scarab bases evenly spaced. So basically what it comes down to on this is... If there is a space equaling the size of the passenger's base between attacking models, the passengers can move through that space to disembark. Even if by doing so they end up within 1" of an opposing model? See diagram below.

 

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3241/warhammerrhino.png

 

 

Impossible as the smallest base is actually larger than 1", its a small difference but stil larger.

 

Also they must be in 2" and those Swarms ar already bigger than 1".

 

Marines are destroyed no matter how you try to bend the rules.

[dswanick]

If by "completely surrounded" you mean scarabs were on all sides of the model such that his models bases could not fit between the scarabs bases - then yes, the disembarking was illegal.

If by "completely surround" you mean only that you had models on all sides such that his models would have ended up within 1" of your scarabs after legally moving his models between gaps in the bases - then yes, he was correct.

 

completely surrounding the rhino involved, I believe, seven scarab bases evenly spaced. So basically what it comes down to on this is... If there is a space equaling the size of the passenger's base between attacking models, the passengers can move through that space to disembark. Even if by doing so they end up within 1" of an opposing model? See diagram below.

 

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3241/warhammerrhino.png

 

 

Impossible as the smallest base is actually larger than 1", its a small difference but stil larger.

 

Also they must be in 2" and those Swarms ar already bigger than 1".

 

Marines are destroyed no matter how you try to bend the rules.

Bullocks. The SM bases are smaller than 25.4mm (1") so a 1" gap allows the bases to squeeze through. the SC bases are (I believe) 30mm meaning that the SM bases could be placed outside of the SC bases an still be within 50.8mm (2") as only a part of the SM base needs to be within 2" (not the whole base). Now we can debate how the models get there, but don't claim anyone is "bending rules" with the placement of the models as shown in the diagram.

[Something Wycked]

And the prohibition on ending their movement within 1" of an enemy model is overruled by the Emergency Disembarkation rules:

Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy. If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn.

This is it. The whole of it, the long and the short of it.

 

For all of you saying "but that rule doesn't cover when there are enemy models blocking the way!", let's reread the above rule.

 

If any models cannot disembark because of enemies... the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull...

 

Remember: these models who are disembarking from their transport are not making a traditional move where they are required to maintain 1" spacing between themselves and enemy models. They are deploying via a special rule called "Emergency Disembarkation". This rule states they may deploy anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, and it has already taken into account the inability of the models to disembark normally due to enemy models. This Emergency Disembarkation rule allows the models to disembark even if enemies are in the way.

[maturin]

@Something Wycked: Your points would be valid if we didn't then have the FAQ saying that models using Emergency Disembarkation are still subject to all normal movement rules.

 

@dswanick: I won't go into the whole IC-slingshot thing because it just gives me a headache thinking about it (and smells slightly dirty). But as far as the p.11 rule, your points on the first paragraph are completely valid and I'd agree with you, if it weren't for that last sentence, about moving within 1". (As an aside, I think they included the bit about moving through another model's space to prevent you from moving through other friendly units).

 

My take on this is that GW has purposely chosen the "stay 1 inch away from enemy models unless assaulting" as an intentional game mechanic, justified as a continuation of the middle sentence you quote. To think about it fluffwise - if you get too close to the enemy , they're likely to engage you in hand to hand combat, not just sit there and let you by!

 

To further illustrate with a game "fluff" example - if your space marine conga line sees a biker zooming in at them (and presumably bolter fire fails to stop it), wouldn't you expect a trooper to whip out his/her chainsword and try to decapitate said biker as they whizz by? Or imagine a line of kroot spaced 1.5" apart in front of a firewarrior squad, with a squad of berzerkers 5.5" away from the firewarriors. By your thinking, the kroot would just merrily stand by while the berkerzers waltzed through their line and ate up the firewarriors. Just as implausible, methinks...

 

Anyways, it's a game, and not all rules will cover all situations (my example doesn't make much sense when a rhino is involved), but GW has included a very clearly worded rule. You must stay 1" away when moving. It works and it's pretty clearly laid out...again, they could have very easily said "models must end their move more than 1" away from enemy models" but they didn't.

[Something Wycked]

@Something Wycked: Your points would be valid if we didn't then have the FAQ saying that models using Emergency Disembarkation are still subject to all normal movement rules.

Okay, that's fine. What normal movement rules apply to disembarking that aren't overwritten by Emergency Disembarkation?

[Acebaur]

If by "completely surrounded" you mean scarabs were on all sides of the model such that his models bases could not fit between the scarabs bases - then yes, the disembarking was illegal.

If by "completely surround" you mean only that you had models on all sides such that his models would have ended up within 1" of your scarabs after legally moving his models between gaps in the bases - then yes, he was correct.

 

completely surrounding the rhino involved, I believe, seven scarab bases evenly spaced. So basically what it comes down to on this is... If there is a space equaling the size of the passenger's base between attacking models, the passengers can move through that space to disembark. Even if by doing so they end up within 1" of an opposing model? See diagram below.

 

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3241/warhammerrhino.png

 

 

Impossible as the smallest base is actually larger than 1", its a small difference but stil larger.

 

Also they must be in 2" and those Swarms ar already bigger than 1".

 

Marines are destroyed no matter how you try to bend the rules.

Bullocks. The SM bases are smaller than 25.4mm (1") so a 1" gap allows the bases to squeeze through. the SC bases are (I believe) 30mm meaning that the SM bases could be placed outside of the SC bases an still be within 50.8mm (2") as only a part of the SM base needs to be within 2" (not the whole base). Now we can debate how the models get there, but don't claim anyone is "bending rules" with the placement of the models as shown in the diagram.

 

 

Try again, there are no 30mm bases in 40K. Only 25, 40, and 60mm and the occasional 120mm ellipse base. Scarabs are on 40mm so as has been said, the SM are destroyed.

 

@Something Wicked: The emergency disembarking rules do not override the 1" within an enemy rule. It is referring solely to if you cannot disembark from the access points. The paragraph would have to specifically say that it overrides the 1" rule for it to do so.

 

Let me ask you this, do you think that you can disembark into btb with an enemy model?

[dswanick]

Try again, there are no 30mm bases in 40K. Only 25, 40, and 60mm and the occasional 120mm ellipse base. Scarabs are on 40mm so as has been said, the SM are destroyed.

 

@Something Wicked: The emergency disembarking rules do not override the 1" within an enemy rule. It is referring solely to if you cannot disembark from the access points. The paragraph would have to specifically say that it overrides the 1" rule for it to do so.

 

Let me ask you this, do you think that you can disembark into btb with an enemy model?

So sorry, the 3 is right next to the 4 on my keyboard and I was typing in a hurry. None the less, a 40mm base leaves 10.8mm of viable deployment area for the embarked models to be placed in, so no - they would not necessarily be destroyed.

 

To further illustrate ... Or imagine a line of kroot spaced 1.5" apart in front of a firewarrior squad, with a squad of berzerkers 5.5" away from the firewarriors. By your thinking, the kroot would just merrily stand by while the berkerzers waltzed through their line and ate up the firewarriors. Just as implausible, methinks...

But if the zerkers shot at the fire warriors (giving them a cover save for intervening models) they could charge past the kroot. That's clearly in the Assault Moves section of the rules.

[Seahawk]

So, are you then saying since all restrictions are lifted per the Emergency Disembark, if the vehicle is completely surrounded so that there are no gaps big enough to fit a base, the unit inside can still deploy outside the offending unit so long as they are within 2" of the hull?

 

Incidentally, this is how I ruled it in a tournament right after the release of 5th. Got severely questioning looks, but that's how I interpreted it at the time. Since then I've changed to still needing to be 1" from an enemy and needing space to move through, but hey if you'd like to change my mind back that might be possible.

[Something Wycked]

@Something Wicked: The emergency disembarking rules do not override the 1" within an enemy rule. It is referring solely to if you cannot disembark from the access points. The paragraph would have to specifically say that it overrides the 1" rule for it to do so.

 

Let me ask you this, do you think that you can disembark into btb with an enemy model?

 

Remember: these models who are disembarking from their transport are not making a traditional move where they are required to maintain 1" spacing between themselves and enemy models. They are deploying via a special rule called "Emergency Disembarkation". This rule states they may deploy anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, and it has already taken into account the inability of the models to disembark normally due to enemy models. This Emergency Disembarkation rule allows the models to disembark even if enemies are in the way.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I think that the 1" (no move zone) around enemy models is fairly realistic.

 

I agree that the 30" conga line seems silly but I feel that it is even less realistic to say that the enemy can get within inches (assuming full size people) of their opponent, slide on by and have there be no consequences. Could you imagine a Space Marine allowing some Xenos to get right up to them and not doing anything while they go past, chanting "not touching you, not touching you"?

 

@those who feel you can disregard enemy models during the disembark...

 

Would you allow someone to embark onto a surrounded vehicle? The rules only say that you need to get within 2" of an access point, not have clear passage to the access point. Personally I feel that this too is a no go.

 

Neither the embarking, disembarking nor 'emergency disembarking' rules have the words "ignoring intervening models" or anything to that effect. You need that 3" gap in order to make it through.

[dswanick]

So, are you then saying since all restrictions are lifted per the Emergency Disembark, if the vehicle is completely surrounded so that there are no gaps big enough to fit a base, the unit inside can still deploy outside the offending unit so long as they are within 2" of the hull?

No, I'm saying so long as there is a gap - the models can disembark. The prohibition on moving through models is clear and not in debate. :)

I think that the 1" (no move zone) around enemy models is fairly realistic.

 

I agree that the 30" conga line seems silly but I feel that it is even less realistic to say that the enemy can get within inches (assuming full size people) of their opponent, slide on by and have there be no consequences. Could you imagine a Space Marine allowing some Xenos to get right up to them and not doing anything while they go past, chanting "not touching you, not touching you"?

 

@those who feel you can disregard enemy models during the disembark...

 

Would you allow someone to embark onto a surrounded vehicle? The rules only say that you need to get within 2" of an access point, not have clear passage to the access point. Personally I feel that this too is a no go.

 

Neither the embarking, disembarking nor 'emergency disembarking' rules have the words "ignoring intervening models" or anything to that effect. You need that 3" gap in order to make it through.

On the topic of "I'm not touching you", this can and does happen given the rules. In the example given previously of Fire Warriors behind a line of Kroot, if the Assaulting unit shoots at the Fire Warriors they can move past the Kroot to engage the Warriors in Close Combat, so long as there is sufficient space between the Kroot models to allow the attackers bases through. Further this isn't a normal move we're talking about here. We're talking about a unit in a transport, having to disembark and if they use this rule they can do nothing for the entire round. The enemy unit can then choose to attack them in close combat and get their smacks in (so the ED unit isn't "untouched").

Finally, if there were an Emergency Embarkation rule worded the same way, then yes, I would argue that you could do just that. But there isn't so it's irrelevant.

The problem is that the normal movement rules don't say "a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model at the end of its movement unless assaulting." or "a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model at any point in its movement unless assaulting." so we are left with the ambiguous wording which can be interpreted either way.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The problem is that the normal movement rules don't say "a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model at the end of its movement unless assaulting." or "a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model at any point in its movement unless assaulting." so we are left with the ambiguous wording which can be interpreted either way.

 

I'm unclear as to where you are getting the rule that you only check for things at the end of a phase. :)

 

Think of it kind of like a restaining order where you can't get within a hundred yards of someone. ;) If the cops catch you in front of their house, telling them that you won't be within 100 yards 'when you stop walking' is not going to cut it.

 

As people have said before, this is a permissive rule set, not an exclusionary one. The rule says that you cannot move within 1" of an enemy (permission not granted). If the rule was only meant to be applied at the end of the phase then it would need to say that you cannot end your move within 1" of an enemy (permission granted during move). As it does not specifically say that you can, you can't.

 

As for assaulting "through" one unit to reach another, the rules specifically state that it is permitted. I'm not saying that you can't. Once again the rules have stated specifically what you can do.

[Something Wycked]

So, are you then saying since all restrictions are lifted per the Emergency Disembark, if the vehicle is completely surrounded so that there are no gaps big enough to fit a base, the unit inside can still deploy outside the offending unit so long as they are within 2" of the hull?

No, I'm saying so long as there is a gap - the models can disembark. The prohibition on moving through models is clear and not in debate. ;)

I disagree. Disembarking makes the squad count as moving, but disembarking is not movement- it is deployment.

 

Nowhere in the rules does it say that units disembarking from a vehicle are moving from the access point of the vehicle to their destination within 2" of the access point and they must maintain 1" away from enemy units during this "movement". They simply deploy out of the vehicle in the radius permitted by the rules; Emergency Disembarkation extends this radius to 2" around the hull rather than around the access points.

 

For the record, once again I'm just RAW'ing, while I support a RAI with a different end result :)

[Hiro_Protagonist]

However this would mean (by RAW) that 'emergency disembark' only adds the option of disembarking from a facing that doesn't have an access point. The rules for disembarking (the regular kind) already says 'deploy within 2"'.

[Leonaides]

It also removes the option to do anything with said unit for a turn... Which is a fairly hefty penalty when you consider that they must have just appeared next to an enemy unit who've just destroyed their transport.

[Something Wycked]

However this would mean (by RAW) that 'emergency disembark' only adds the option of disembarking from a facing that doesn't have an access point.

If any models cannot disembark because of enemies... the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull...

It also apparently adds the option of disembarking anywhere within 2" of the hull, and the presence of enemies is already taken into consideration- their presence is one of the two cases in which emergency disembarkation is prescribed.

 

As you say, this is a permissive rule set- and the rules very clearly say you can disembark anywhere within 2" of the hull.

 

The rules for disembarking (the regular kind) already says 'deploy within 2"'.

I don't see that any commonality in the allowed distance has any bearing on the discussion :)

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I don't see that any commonality in the allowed distance has any bearing on the discussion :P

 

It's not the distance I'm refering to, but the fact that it also says "deploy". ;)

 

If passengers are allowed to "teleport" when they disembark (jumping out 2" without actually moving through the space) then how are enemies preventing regular disembarking by standing in front of the access points? If models don't actually come out of the access point, merely appearing within 2" of it then the presence of an enemy at the access point would have no effect. It is only while moving through an area that the enemy's position matters.

[Something Wycked]

They're not teleporting- they're deploying. ;)

 

If what you say is true, there should be a rules citation that indicates models are in fact moving when they deploy out of a transport rather than counting as moving while they deploy :P

[Seahawk]

There is. It's in the FAQ quote I posted earlier.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

There is. It's in the FAQ quote I posted earlier.

Exactly! They are moving through the space. Therefore they must follow normal moving rules and stay 1" away from enemy models, hence the requirement of a 3" gap for safe disembarking.

[Gentlemanloser]

Question.

 

If emergency disembarkment overides all usual rules and restricitons and allows you disembark into B2B with an enemy.

 

How does that then function with the stipulation the unit can't do anything that turn?

 

Let's assume the transport was destroyed in the shooting Phase.

 

Come the assault phase the enemy unit can't charge (as they are alreadin in combat) but the friendly unit can't do anything, so can't attack back?

 

It seems utterly convoluted...

 

Edit: and somehow, if the disembarking unit were to win the combat (however unlikely that may be), they couldn't sweeping advance, or consolidate. It's just seems, fishy.