Emergency Disembarkation

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Question.

 

If emergency disembarkment overides all usual rules and restricitons and allows you disembark into B2B with an enemy.

 

How does that then function with the stipulation the unit can't do anything that turn?

 

Let's assume the transport was destroyed in the shooting Phase.

 

Come the assault phase the enemy unit can't charge (as they are alreadin in combat) but the friendly unit can't do anything, so can't attack back?

 

It seems utterly convoluted...

 

Edit: and somehow, if the disembarking unit were to win the combat (however unlikely that may be), they couldn't sweeping advance, or consolidate. It's just seems, fishy.

 

^_^

 

But emergency disembark doesn't override the rules...that's what we've been discussing.

 

Plus, even if this convoluted combat did happen...

Anytime the rules have said "can't do anything" it has been in reference to voluntary actions. Combat is not voluntary. If you are involved in a combat you must swing your attacks, etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I agree.

 

Which is why I think the unit would be destoyed.

 

but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn.

 

Doesn't seem to imply just Voluntary.

 

Can't do anything really is can't do anything.

 

But you make an interesting point. Can they take Moral tests? Can they fall back?

[SeattleDV8]

The wording is the same for Going to Ground.BRB pg. 24

.....the unit can do nothing until the end of its following turn.

 

But as we read further

.....the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions.

 

Even though the unit may 'do nothing' it is fairly clear that only stops voluntary acts.

[Gentlemanloser]

But the Emergency disembarkation rules don't have that second disclaimer, do they?

 

Which isn't needed, if ED is still effected by usual movement rules (as per the FAQ) and couldn't do things like end up in B2B with an enemy.

 

Anything that lets you get into B2B without charging is, fishy.

 

If only in this case, in the opponents Shooting phase you would not only become immune to all other enemy shooting that phase, now block LoS, and stop the enemy from having the ability to charge.

 

That's some hefty bonuses...

[dswanick]

But the Emergency disembarkation rules don't have that second disclaimer, do they?

 

Which isn't needed, if ED is still effected by usual movement rules (as per the FAQ) and couldn't do things like end up in B2B with an enemy.

 

Anything that lets you get into B2B without charging is, fishy.

 

If only in this case, in the opponents Shooting phase you would not only become immune to all other enemy shooting that phase, now block LoS, and stop the enemy from having the ability to charge.

 

That's some hefty bonuses...

I have no idea where you guys came up with the idea that Emergency Disembark allows a model to deploy into Base to Base contact and become locked in Assault, but - do you consider the Assault phase rules for Infantry against Vehicles fishy? Because if a unit of Infantry Assaults and fails to destroy a vehicle which does not or can not move they can find themselves in Base to Base contact with it in a subsequent round of Close Combat without having charged. But between those two Close Combat phases the models, despite being in Base to Base, are not "Locked in Combat" and so can be shot at and Assaulted/Pile-In dragged away from the vehicle.

[Gentlemanloser]

This was never answered;

 

@Something Wicked: The emergency disembarking rules do not override the 1" within an enemy rule. It is referring solely to if you cannot disembark from the access points. The paragraph would have to specifically say that it overrides the 1" rule for it to do so.

 

Let me ask you this, do you think that you can disembark into btb with an enemy model?

 

If you override the usual movement restriction rules, then you can end up in B2B in the enemy shooting phase.

 

And I think the Assault rules versus vehicles are perfectly fine. They're all in the BRB. :P

[SeattleDV8]

Okay, this has been pointed out several times already.

The Emergency Disembark rules do not over turn the Movement rules.

BRB FAQ

Q: If a transport vehicle is completely surrounded can a

unit inside disembark by moving through the enemy

models? (p67)

A: No. Models that disembark are still subject to the

normal movement rules regarding moving through

other models as per page 11.

Also this

Q: When a unit makes an ‘emergency disembarkation’

they cannot do anything else for the rest of the turn.

What does this mean? (p67)

A: It means that they can perform no voluntary actions.

Any action forced upon them, for example from failing

a Morale or Pinning test, they will still carry out and if

assaulted they will fight as normal.

[dswanick]

This was never answered;

 

@Something Wicked: The emergency disembarking rules do not override the 1" within an enemy rule. It is referring solely to if you cannot disembark from the access points. The paragraph would have to specifically say that it overrides the 1" rule for it to do so.

 

Let me ask you this, do you think that you can disembark into btb with an enemy model?

 

If you override the usual movement restriction rules, then you can end up in B2B in the enemy shooting phase.

 

And I think the Assault rules versus vehicles are perfectly fine. They're all in the BRB. :P

Ah, gotcha. Well, by my reading the Disembark/Emergency Disembark rule has two prohibitions :

Disembarking

A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved. When the unit disembarks, each model is deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle's access points, and within unit coherency. Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy. If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark.

1> When Disembarking the unit is deployed within 2" of a vehicles Access Points, and within unit coherency.

2> When Disembarking models in the unit may not be deployed within 1" of an enemy.

If, however, this is not possible the unit is afforded an "Emergency Disembarkation. An Emergency Disembarkation simply states "the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn". It has no prohibition on being deployed within 2"

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As I was typing, I went back to the Rulebook and FAQ to reference wording to continue my post without mis-statements and realized something:

Q: If a transport vehicle is completely surrounded can a unit inside disembark by moving through the enemy models? (p67)

A: No. Models that disembark are still subject to the normal movement rules regarding moving through other models as per page 11.

The FAQ which seems to be inflamming this debate is very specific about the models may not break the normal rules for moving through other models (as defined by the Rulebookin the "Models in the Way" rules, this is the models base). The 1" rule is an addendum for clarity of the "models in base to base contact" part of the "Models in the Way" rules. A seperate mechanic from the "moving through other models" portion. So the FAQ really has no bearing on this debate other than to confuse the issue. As has been stated previously - Disembarking (and Emergency Disembarking) are special types of Deployments, not normal moves - as evidenced by the fact that the rules allow models to make a normal Move after Deploying by Disembarking (BRB, Pg.67, Disembarking, second bullet point). As such they have their own set of rules and restrictions, none of which reference the normal movement rules restrictions except the FAQ related to Emergency Disembarking which specifically references the portion of the normal movement rules related specifically to the "moving through other models" (ie moving through other models bases, not their 1" "no-fly" zone).

At this point I find it is painfully clear to me. Disembarking is Deployment, not Movement. It has its own rules and restrictions which are self-contained without referencing any other rules anywhere in the book (note: yes there are other rules which apply modifiers but they specifically do so - ie. Dangerous Terrain mentions how to handle Disembarking into Dangerous Terrain). Other rules, therefore, have no bearing on Disembarking unless they specifically state that they do so. If a normal Disembark Deployment is not possible due to restrictions placed on it by its own prohibitions, the rules afford the player an Emergency Disembarkation. This, too, is a self-contained rule with its own rules and restrictions (in the BRB). Additionally, the FAQ modifies the Emergency Disembarking rules adds one caveat to the mix, specifically the prohibiton on moving through other models (as defined in the BRB, their base) but it does not specifically include the rule for not being in base to base contact (nor its additional rule about maintaining a 1" buffer for clarity).

[maturin]

A well thought out answer, dswanick. You almost have me convinced - but let me take another tack. Would you consider an Emergency Disembarkation a type of disembark (ie a subset)? The last sentence of the disembark rule would seem to imply that it's so - "If even this type of disembarkation is not possible..."

 

If you agree that ED is a subtype of disembarkation, then the rule that "Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy" still must apply. Nothing in the ED rule subset invalidates that. The stuff about deploying anywhere within 2" is meant to override the usual exit-through-access-points-only rule. The two rules are not mutually exclusive.

 

(good catch earlier on my FW/kroot example, btw - I concede my error. I should have made the firewarriors 8" beyond the berzerkers for my point to have been valid...)

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I have to second maturin's point about the subset.

 

What indicates this to me is the fact that 'emergency disembarkation' has air quotes around it, and is only used once with disembark being used in all other references.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks for that second quote DV8! ;)

[dswanick]

A well thought out answer, dswanick. You almost have me convinced - but let me take another tack. Would you consider an Emergency Disembarkation a type of disembark (ie a subset)? The last sentence of the disembark rule would seem to imply that it's so - "If even this type of disembarkation is not possible..."

 

If you agree that ED is a subtype of disembarkation, then the rule that "Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy" still must apply. Nothing in the ED rule subset invalidates that. The stuff about deploying anywhere within 2" is meant to override the usual exit-through-access-points-only rule. The two rules are not mutually exclusive.

Well, the answer to this question is simple - I don't know. As usual, GW is excessively vague.

- ED may be a subset of normal Disembarking, in which case - no, the 1" rule is not explicitly overruled. But then, going beyond "Pinned" to "may not do anything this turn" seems an excessive penalty. Further, the context as a whole would seem (to me) to imply that its intent is to negate the prohibitions imposed by a normal Disembark (Access points and 1" buffer) else why have an Emergency Disembark rule at all? Just say that the vehicle counts as Open-topped and the unit is Pinned. Further, it could be argued that the statement "the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull" is implict (although not explicit) permission to ignore the 1" rule and place them anywhere within 2" of the hull (even within 1" of an enemy). Finally, let me peruse the rulebook - I have a feeling there is another instance of a "subset" rule which has completely seperate rules and conditions from its parent rule. I just can't put my finger on it right now.

- ED may also be a seperate, co-equal Deployment option which is only available to units which can not Disembark in the normal manner - in which case its rules are complete and self-contained and don't have a prohibition against deploying within 1" of an enemy. This is my current stance given the wording and the severity of the penalty for using the option.

Either way, without an FAQ on this matter we don't have enough RAW to make a conclusive determination - thus Discussion with One's Opponent seems to be the best we can conclude.

(good catch earlier on my FW/kroot example, btw - I concede my error. I should have made the firewarriors 8" beyond the berzerkers for my point to have been valid...)

Thanks.

[Gentlemanloser]

So if the ED rules allow you to deploy anywhere within 2" of the hull, regardless of not being in B2B of the enemy, or within 1" of them, or no worrying aobut being able to move thorugh them.

 

Then is there really *any* way to be destroyed when the transport is?

 

It's got to be nearly impossible to surround a wreck in such a fashion you can't end up within 2" of it *somewhere*. :/

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Either way, without an FAQ on this matter we don't have enough RAW to make a conclusive determination - thus Discussion with One's Opponent seems to be the best we can conclude.

 

I can see enough of your point to accept this as a final conclusion.

[*Furyou Miko]

Um... guys...? You're missing an important point...

 

You can't perform an Emergency Disembarkation against a Wrecked result.

[maturin]

Um... guys...? You're missing an important point...

 

You can't perform an Emergency Disembarkation against a Wrecked result.

 

Erm - what? It's the only time you're going to Emergency Disembark...

 

(I agree with dswanick + Hiro that discussion with opponent is the way to go...)

[dswanick]

Um... guys...? You're missing an important point...

 

You can't perform an Emergency Disembarkation against a Wrecked result.

 

Erm - what? It's the only time you're going to Emergency Disembark...

 

(I agree with dswanick + Hiro that discussion with opponent is the way to go...)

Well, not the only time - you can choose to disembark during your movement phase and if the conditions are met, you can then Emergency Disembark. But the most common time you will be called upon to make an Emergency Disembark is when your transport is Wrecked.

[Something Wycked]

Also, it may be rare, but iirc there is a provision in the rules for an occupied transport, when taking a Penetrating hit with a non-Destroyed result, the embarked models must then take a Leadership test or immediately disembark. If the models on the table are arranged correctly, and the embarked unit fails the test, then they could be forced to perform an Emergency Disembarkation.

 

Then is there really *any* way to be destroyed when the transport is?

 

It's got to be nearly impossible to surround a wreck in such a fashion you can't end up within 2" of it *somewhere*. :/

Honestly, does it make any sense for units inside transports to be destroyed when their transport is, just because its surrounded? A few Scarabs destroy a Rhino- they don't Explodes! it, they Wreck it. The Scarabs have cut the Rhino to ribbons- but they haven't done a single thing to the unit of Marines inside. Then, suddenly, the Marines don't have room to deploy on the table and they're... wiped out? This is just be a wargaming convenience- a result of the rules that does not follow the logic of simulating a battlefield, but is effected due to the nature of minatures and the tabletop situation.

 

The Marines should come out swinging, just the same as if their Rhino had been Wrecked via a shooting attack.

 

That has nothing to do with RAW, but you see where I'm coming from. :lol:

 

Oh, and +1 for dswanick and +1 for Opponent Discussion. :D

[dswanick]

Also, it may be rare, but iirc there is a provision in the rules for an occupied transport, when taking a Penetrating hit with a non-Destroyed result, the embarked models must then take a Leadership test or immediately disembark. If the models on the table are arranged correctly, and the embarked unit fails the test, then they could be forced to perform an Emergency Disembarkation.

You're remembering a rule from the bad old days of 4th Ed, when transports were expensive death-traps.

Oh, and +1 for dswanick and +1 for Opponent Discussion. ;)

Thank you.

[Something Wycked]

You're remembering a rule from the bad old days of 4th Ed, when transports were expensive death-traps.

;) There I go again, bringing 4th into 5th. /facepalm

[*Furyou Miko]

No, you Emergency Disembark to get out of a Destroyed transport.

 

You have to Disembark normally out of one that's merely Wrecked.

[dswanick]

No, you Emergency Disembark to get out of a Destroyed transport.

 

You have to Disembark normally out of one that's merely Wrecked.

First, "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes!" are both 'Destroyed' results. I'm going to assume that when you say "Destroyed" you mean "Destroyed - Explodes!". In which case - no. Models in a Transport that suffers a "Destroyed - Explodes!" result do not Emergency Disembark, they are simply placed on the table in the location that the Transport occupied.

DESTROYED - EXPLODES!

The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP- hits equal to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits from shooting. The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

DISEMBARKING

A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved. When the unit disembarks, each model is deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle's access points, and within unit coherency. Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy. If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain , the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark.

Where in the above quote does it say that you may only Emergency Disembark from a Destroyed transport? If it's not in the rules above, where in the Rulebook are you finding this rule?

[Gentlemanloser]

> The Marines should come out swinging, just the same as if their Rhino had been Wrecked via a shooting attack.

 

LoL!

 

I see where you're coming from, but it could be a situation like this;

 

The Scarabs 'swarm' the rhino, blocking/welding all the doors shut. One cuts through a power coupling and sends a fireball/superheated plasma through the interior of the Rhino.

 

In a desperate bid to live, the marines (who aren't strong enough to punch their way out! :blink:) try the doors.

 

They're bocked/welded shut.

 

With no manner of escape, they roast alive inside their transport.

 

:blush:

 

Or some such.

[dswanick]

Let me ask a related question :

Why do you guys find it so hard to accept that this might be the correct way to play it?

Imagine a squad of ten marines in a Rhino surrounded by a swarm of fill in the blank enemies. The enemies Destroy - Explode the Rhino, the marines inside suffer 10 S4 hits allowing armor saves(taking on average 2 wounds) , the Rhino is removed and the squad is placed in the space left behind even if they are placed such that they are within 1" of the enemy(the rule doesn't stipulate that they have to be placed 1" away and make no provision for auto-destroying the unit), the unit takes a pinning test(which it will likely pass).

Now consider the same scenario except that the swarm rolls a Destroyed - Wrecked result instead. The Marines inside suffer no wounds(well, that's reasonable - Wrecked is a lesser result than Explodes), but now the unit is forced to disembark before the Rhino model is converted to terrain and can do nothing for the rest of the turn (worse than Pinned). Further, you guys argue that this lesser Damage Table result should almost garauntee the destruction of the entire unit instead of just some of the models because of the proximity of enemy models.

My question is this : Does it really make any logical sense to you guys that the intent of the rules would be that a lesser result on the Vehicle Damage table should give a much greater result of carnage?

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Does it really make any logical sense to you guys that the intent of the rules would be that a lesser result on the Vehicle Damage table should give a much greater result of carnage?

Of course not. However my gaming group also applies the 1" rule to the explodes result. :P

 

In the same vein though, should the Wrecked result put the disembarking squad into a superior position than the squad who just blew up their ride?

 

The sad fact is that the damage tables really only "work" when dealing with shooting. When it comes to close combat they fail.