Emergency Disembarkation

[SeattleDV8]

Yes it does.

I'm still not seeing where you thimk the 1" rule doesn't count.

Disembarking BRB pg67

Models may not disembark within 1" of an enemy.

Then later Destroyed-wrecked same page

Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed

 

It is true that Emergency Disembark seems to over-rule the 1" rule, but the FAQ tells us it does not.

Destroyed-explodes never mentions disembarking, but the BRB FAQ

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as

it moved flat out what happens to any embarked

models? (p70)

A: They are removed as casualties.

Shows us that it is disembarking.

 

Yes it can be very powerful, but that alone isn't a good arugment against it.

There has to be downsides to transports along with the pluses.

[dswanick]

Yes it does.

I'm still not seeing where you thimk the 1" rule doesn't count.

Disembarking BRB pg67

Models may not disembark within 1" of an enemy.

Then later Destroyed-wrecked same page

Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed

 

It is true that Emergency Disembark seems to over-rule the 1" rule, but the FAQ tells us it does not.

Destroyed-explodes never mentions disembarking, but the BRB FAQ

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as

it moved flat out what happens to any embarked

models? (p70)

A: They are removed as casualties.

Shows us that it is disembarking.

 

Yes it can be very powerful, but that alone isn't a good arugment against it.

There has to be downsides to transports along with the pluses.

First, the 1" rule applies to Disembarking. Emergency Disembarking, however, states flat out that you may place them anywhere within 2" of the hull. Again - this may mean that it is a sub-set of the normal Disembark rule (and subject to the 1" rule) or it may be completely seperate (in which case anywhere means anywhere).

Second the FAQ states that models may not move through enemy models. 1. The rulebook defines "through a model" as throught the area of its base, not within 1" of the models base. 2. The models aren't moving, they are deploying. GW tripped over their own rules in this case.

Third, a transport moving Flat Out has a whole other set of rules pertaining to it. Being preveneted from Disembarking due to Flat Out really has no bearing on the debate about units being destroyed by Emergency Disembarking and cast no light on if Explodes counts as Disembarking even though it makes no mention of it.

[Captain Idaho]

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as

it moved flat out what happens to any embarked

models? (p70)

A: They are removed as casualties.

Shows us that it is disembarking.

 

Yes it can be very powerful, but that alone isn't a good arugment against it.

There has to be downsides to transports along with the pluses.

 

Well actually, mention of "Turn" refers to a player turn. A flat out moving transport that is destroyed in it's own turn generally refers to Fast Skimmers moving in Dangerous terrain and being immobilised.

[Something Wycked]

It is true that Emergency Disembark seems to over-rule the 1" rule, but the FAQ tells us it does not.

The FAQ does not, in fact, so state. See this post on the matter.

[SeattleDV8]

That post only deals with the first sentence of Models in the Way.

The rules state that a model cannot move into or though the space occupied by another model.

It then states that you may move though a gap that is larger than it base size though friendly models....(a point that dswanick has ignored) and then states that a model may not come into BtB contact with an enemy model therefore a model may not come within 1" of an enemy unless assaulting.

The FAQ clearly states that we follow these rules.

Disembarking, which Emergency Disembarking are part of, do not allow you to deploy a model within 1" of an enemy.

The only differences are you are allowed to disembark from any point on the hull rather than the access points and that the unit may make no voluntary acts.

None of the other normal rules are over-ruled.

[dswanick]

That post only deals with the first sentence of Models in the Way.

The rules state that a model cannot move into or though the space occupied by another model.

It then states that you may move though a gap that is larger than it base size though friendly models....(a point that dswanick has ignored) and then states that a model may not come into BtB contact with an enemy model therefore a model may not come within 1" of an enemy unless assaulting.

The FAQ clearly states that we follow these rules.

Disembarking, which Emergency Disembarking are part of, do not allow you to deploy a model within 1" of an enemy.

The only differences are you are allowed to disembark from any point on the hull rather than the access points and that the unit may make no voluntary acts.

None of the other normal rules are over-ruled.

Sorry, Seattle but you're paraphrasing the rule in question in order to have it say something it doesn't.

MODELS IN THE WAY'

A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size. A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.'

Let's take it very slowly:

"A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model(which is represented by its base or by its hull)" - seems pretty clear. At no time during a models move may its base overlap the area of any another models base (friend or enemy). And that the area in question is the area of its base, not the area plus 1" or anything else.

"or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base size." - well, why say this if the previous part of the sentence already said it? Maybe to reinforce the point that even freidnly models can still get in the way of each other. If it weren't for this extra clarification, I could imagine some players leaving 1/4" gaps in units and then claiming that their hero models could bull-rush their way clear of a unit because there is a small gap and "my guys just get out of his way".

 

"A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases " - Notice the start of a completely new sentence. Whereas the previous sentence states that a model may not pass through a gap smaller than its base size, this rule states that the gap size may not be smaller or equal to its base size otherwise the bases would touch briefly during the move.

"- this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase." - And the sentence then goes on to makes it clear that the only time enemy models may be touching is in Assault. Unnecessary for the prohibition, per se, but added for clarity.

 

"To keep the distinction clear," - Another new sentence, but now it is clearly indicating that it is expanding on the earlier sentence.

"a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting." - This is the rub. Its pretty obvious that it says a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assulting. But it is unclear on the "when". If it said "a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model during its move unless assaulting." as it says "At no time during a models move" in the earlier sentence - then yes, you would be correct in your position. If it said "a model may not end its move within" - then my position would be unequivocally correct, and no more discussion would be needed. Unfortunately it says neither. Instead it uses a sentence which is equally valid read either way and leaves it up to us to decypher the intent.

 

Which brings us to "'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull" and my question about a lesser Damage result of Destroyed being more dangerous to the transported unit than Explodes.

Wrecked:

- Models have less room to attempt a Disembark due to the presence of the Destroyed transport as well as the enemy models.

- The models are using a Disembark Deployment, which takes into consideration the proximity of enemy models.

- The models have a limited area in which to attempt a disembark (access points) and if unable to make use of this limited area are punished by being able to take no other actions for the turn (without even a dice roll)

- And if your claim is correct - the entire unit will be destroyed in most cases while trying to Disembark

Explodes :

- Models are placed in the Difficult Terrain that was once their transport. They are garaunteed to have at least a Rhino-sized empty space where the model used to be to do so.

- The models left after an Explodes are not "deployed" in the RAW sense of the word. Explodes simply tells you to "place the models" where the transport was.

- It is highly unlikely that the erntire unit will thus be destroyed after the vehicle Explodes.

Given all of this - the intent of the rule, to me, is clear. The designers want higher Damage rolls to produce more severe consequences. An Explode result should give a greater consequence to the transported unit. Preventing models from Disembarking anywhere within 2" of the hull and then destroying them since they can't is a more severe result and therefore not the intended result. Therefore your interpretation of the use of the 1" rule is excessive and unintended by the rules designers.

 

On this note - unless something new comes to light to alter my interpretation, or GW clarifies things with an errata or FAQ I'm done re-re-restating my point of view on this.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg. 11

...a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unlees assaulting

Are the units disembarking from a destroyed (wrecked or exploded) assaulting?

BRB pg. 67

Models may not disemark within 1" of an enemy

This is clearly spelled out in the disembarking rules, which emergency disemark is part of.

Note the last line

If even this disembarkation is impossible , they can't disembark.

This line tells us (twice) that an emergency disemark is still a disemarkation, an as so follows the same rules.

Also if you could disembark anywhere with out the 1" gap between enemy models how could the disembarkation be impossible?

[dswanick]

If even this disembarkation is impossible , they can't disembark.

This line tells us (twice) that an emergency disemark is still a disemarkation, an as so follows the same rules.

Sigh...

And the rules for Emergency Disembark override this with the statement

If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn.

Also if you could disembark anywhere with out the 1" gap between enemy models how could the disembarkation be impossible?

An IG Platoon blob surrounding a Rhino? An IG Conscript squad surroundig a Rhino? A maxed out Ork Boyz mob surrounding a Rhino? A 15-man Blood Claw pack surrounding the sides of a Rhino not right next to a piece of Impassible Terrain? I'm sure I could come up with more if need be, there are plenty of ways to completely fill the 2" area surrounding the hull of a Rhino such that no model could be placed within 2" of it and not be placed touching or on top of the enemies base...

 

However, eight to ten Guardsmen are not sufficient to annihilate a squad of Marines just because they Wrecked their ride when they couldn't do the same thing by achieving an Explodes! result.

[Algesan]

You're remembering a rule from the bad old days of 4th Ed, when transports were expensive death-traps.

:) There I go again, bringing 4th into 5th. /facepalm

 

Heh, I see that all the time here in OR. It actually got to the point a while back that when I see the "gurus" of OR refute a point someone is debating with them, I pull up an online copy of 4th Edition. If the "gurus" use 4th Edition language to make their points, then I know they are wrong and simply suffering from 4th Edition Hangover.

 

You know: "As it was in 4th Edition, it ever shall be and everything else it badly written; 5th Edition rules disputes without end; Amen."

[falldown]

Just want to point this out as well.

 

"Q: If a skimmer on a large oval flying base is wrecked,

and its base is completely surrounded by enemy

models, are all embarked models killed? (p71)

A: Yes."

 

Emergency Disembarkation does not save troops in skimmers. Only land based vehicles. Does it make sense that I could surround the base of a skimmer transport with four scarab swarms and wipe out the entire squad, but I would need 12+ to fill the entire area around a rhino to ensure that there is no spot that can fit a single Ork/Sm/IG base?

 

Sorry to keep this going, it just seems that this is a HUGE advantage for land based transports. I mean, if this gets ruled that you CAN actually disembark anywhere within 2" you as a player should never assault a transport that contains troops but is immobilized. Just take up space, let it sit there and shoot it the next turn, because if you force an ED in your assault phase, whatever got out of the vehicle has free reign on their following turn. If they are still in the transport on their turn, they take their shots, but can't get out to assault.

[dswanick]

Just want to point this out as well.

 

"Q: If a skimmer on a large oval flying base is wrecked,

and its base is completely surrounded by enemy

models, are all embarked models killed? (p71)

A: Yes."

 

Emergency Disembarkation does not save troops in skimmers. Only land based vehicles. Does it make sense that I could surround the base of a skimmer transport with four scarab swarms and wipe out the entire squad, but I would need 12+ to fill the entire area around a rhino to ensure that there is no spot that can fit a single Ork/Sm/IG base?

I fail to see how this changes the equation any.

"and its base is completely surrounded by enemy models". If it's "completely" surrounded then there are no gaps between models to allow the Emergency Disembark from saving them. I don't think anyone has argued the the models could "pass through" enemy models during a Disembark. I suspect, however, that four Scarab swarms will not "completely surround" an oval flying base.

[dswanick]

Just want to point this out as well.

 

"Q: If a skimmer on a large oval flying base is wrecked,

and its base is completely surrounded by enemy

models, are all embarked models killed? (p71)

A: Yes."

 

Emergency Disembarkation does not save troops in skimmers. Only land based vehicles. Does it make sense that I could surround the base of a skimmer transport with four scarab swarms and wipe out the entire squad, but I would need 12+ to fill the entire area around a rhino to ensure that there is no spot that can fit a single Ork/Sm/IG base?

 

Sorry to keep this going, it just seems that this is a HUGE advantage for land based transports. I mean, if this gets ruled that you CAN actually disembark anywhere within 2" you as a player should never assault a transport that contains troops but is immobilized. Just take up space, let it sit there and shoot it the next turn, because if you force an ED in your assault phase, whatever got out of the vehicle has free reign on their following turn. If they are still in the transport on their turn, they take their shots, but can't get out to assault.

And to address you edit - yes, it would make sense to me. First, it's the difference between a vehicle which is already on the ground and a vehicle which comes crashing down from some distance above the ground. Second, on the issue of needing to "place 12+ models", you only have to prevent one transported model from deploying legally to destroy the entire unit. That would require far fewer models than would be needed to prevent even one model from Disembarking.

[falldown]

I'm sorry DS. I was under the impression that the discussion had concluded that the "Anywhere within 2" " aspect of the ED allowed the transport's owner to place troops regardless of enemy positioning as long as the transported troops were within 2" of the now wrecked transport, ignoring enemy positioning and the 1" distance requirement. To instagib a squad with that rule in effect would require a TON of troops around the transport. 12+ probably on the low end of what you would need.

[dswanick]

I'm sorry DS. I was under the impression that the discussion had concluded that the "Anywhere within 2" " aspect of the ED allowed the transport's owner to place troops regardless of enemy positioning as long as the transported troops were within 2" of the now wrecked transport, ignoring enemy positioning and the 1" distance requirement. To instagib a squad with that rule in effect would require a TON of troops around the transport. 12+ probably on the low end of what you would need.

It would, if not for the FAQ which does state that the models are still bound by the prohibition on moving through other models. Even though Disembarking is Deployment and not Movement, it doesn't take much to figure out that GW intended for the models to de Deployed "as if" they had moved out form the Access Points or the Vehicle hull and that they clearly do not want models to have "Deployed as if" their bases had "moved" through other models bases. The current debate is stuck on if the 1" applies to the models in base contact with the transport for the purposes of moving between models and ending their movement within the 2" hull Emergency Disembark zone.

[falldown]

Cool thanks for the clarification.

[SeattleDV8]

Second, on the issue of needing to "place 12+ models", you only have to prevent one transported model from deploying legally to destroy the entire unit. That would require far fewer models than would be needed to prevent even one model from Disembarking.

Ah, Thats not correct

BRB pg.67

Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed.

Only the models that cannot be placed within 2" of the hull (base) and 1" away from an enemy are removed, not the entire squad.

[dswanick]

Second, on the issue of needing to "place 12+ models", you only have to prevent one transported model from deploying legally to destroy the entire unit. That would require far fewer models than would be needed to prevent even one model from Disembarking.

Ah, Thats not correct

BRB pg.67

Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed.

Only the models that cannot be placed within 2" of the hull (base) and 1" away from an enemy are removed, not the entire squad.

True, :

The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed . After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

However, :

A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved. When the unit disembarks, each model is deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle's access points, and within unit coherency. Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy. If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark.

Who are the "they" in "they can't disembark"? The preceding sentences changes subject between "models" and "the unit" enough that the "they" in question is unclear. It's not unreasonable to interpret it either way:

"If even this disembarkation is impossible, they the unit can't disembark." (and the last subject change before the use of "they" is to "the unit" - bolded above)

-or-

If even this disembarkation is impossible, they the models can't disembark."

So, if "they"/the models can't disembark you're golden. But if "they"/the unit can't disembark then the entire unit is destroyed per the Wrecked result. Also note, that in the regular Disembarkation rules any models inability to disembark prevents the entire unit from a normal Disembarkation - so why would any models inability to Emergency Disembark not also prevent the entire unit from Emergency Disembarking?

 

Yet another example of how the rules are written in a less than obviously clear-cut fashion, requiring knowledge of intent or assumption at the most inopportune times.

[maturin]

And the rules for Emergency Disembark override this with the statement

If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn.

 

Whew, go away for a few days and find a thread re-igniting!

 

Dswanick - I just noticed there's a chronological sequence to the rules. The fact that after the ED rules are laid out, GW chooses to then emphasize the point that ED is a type of disembarkation, would seem to me that they view ED as a subset of disembark. It's their last word on the subject.

 

I don't think it's that big a penalty, again compared to 4th ed it's much, much harder to kill a unit this way (since ED was implemented). It comes about very rarely...

[falldown]

No maturin, the word you are looking for is "impossible." It is impossible to kill a unit this way. I say this because you would need to cover almost every space at the 2" range to ensure destruction. If any portion of the base is in that 2" range, the model gets to be placed. So you would need a rank of models at assault range then another rank that completely covers the 2" max range. Or the following could very easily happen.

 

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2010/warhammerrhino2.png

 

Just assume each SM is just barely touching the 2" line. Then spread that out farther to every corner of the rhino and you have literally almost zero possibility of instagibbing a unit in a land based transport.

[maturin]

Falldown - your point would be valid, if we go with the "deploy anywhere within 2 inches" translation of the rule. But that's the point of the whole thread, no? I happen to subscribe to the "not within 1" of an enemy" view.

 

But to reminisce further, all you had to do in 4th ed was block the access points and kill the transport to instagib the unit inside. Chimeras were deathtraps for innummerable Guard squads! Even with the 1" rule in effect things are much, much better for troops. That's why I don't think it's too much of a penalty to read the rule that way, dswanick. The damage tables are a little wonky this way, but I write that off to GW's at-times-incoherent rules writing. I think the error is in the "explodes" result (not enough damage to unit inside - I think the explosion should autowound), not the "wrecked" result. People (even Space Marines) groggily climbing out of wreckage are fairly liable to be picked off one by one.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Also note, that in the regular Disembarkation rules any models inability to disembark prevents the entire unit from a normal Disembarkation - so why would any models inability to Emergency Disembark not also prevent the entire unit from Emergency Disembarking?

 

But you have been arguing that Disembarking and Emergency Disembarking are different/follow different mechanics. You can't say they are different and then force them to follow the same rules. Either they are the same or they aren't. You can't have your cake and eat it too. :lol:

[dswanick]

Also note, that in the regular Disembarkation rules any models inability to disembark prevents the entire unit from a normal Disembarkation - so why would any models inability to Emergency Disembark not also prevent the entire unit from Emergency Disembarking?

 

But you have been arguing that Disembarking and Emergency Disembarking are different/follow different mechanics. You can't say they are different and then force them to follow the same rules. Either they are the same or they aren't. You can't have your cake and eat it too. :lol:

No, I'm saying follow the rules, and question your assumptions. On what basis does one assume that, in the context of ED, being unable to place some of the models allows the squad to be partially embarked and partial disembarked enough to allow only some models in the unit to be destroyed by the Wrecked result mechanic? The rules are consistant in that a unit must either be fully embarked (the whole unit is destroyed) or fully disembarked at all times.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

One would assume that if ED uses mechanics that are an exception to the normal rules for disembarking (within 2" of hull [not access point], ignore the 1" zone of no moving) then it would also be reasonable/plausible to think that there may be other exceptions with regards to model removal.

 

It would still be a full disembark, as some of the models are now dead because they couldn't disembark.

 

It's much like an explodes result but in a different order.

 

Explodes - Remove Dead Models, Place Surviving Models

Wrecked - Place Models Safely, Remove Dead Models (cause they couldn't deploy)

[dswanick]

One would assume

Ahhh, but there's your problem! This is the part I've been trying to get to throughout the debate - the assumptions that everyone is basing their claims of what the rules are. Read the rules for what they say, instead of what we think they should say, and then consider how they might actually work if not for those assumptions.

that if ED uses mechanics that are an exception to the normal rules for disembarking (within 2" of hull [not access point], ignore the 1" zone of no moving) then it would also be reasonable/plausible to think that there may be other exceptions with regards to model removal.

 

It would still be a full disembark, as some of the models are now dead because they couldn't disembark.

 

It's much like an explodes result but in a different order.

 

Explodes - Remove Dead Models, Place Surviving Models

Wrecked - Place Models Safely, Remove Dead Models (cause they couldn't deploy)

No, because the order of operations is different:

Explodes

>Unit is fully embarked.

>Models are removed from the unit due to Explodes result.

>Survivers of unit are still fully embarked.

>Transport model is replaced with a piece of difficult terrain, and unit is disembarked by placing all models in the resulting terrain.

Wrecked

>Unit is fully embarked.

>Player is forced to Disembark due to Wrecked result.

>Player determines that there is insufficient room for a normal Disembark.

>Player declares the use of an Emergency Disembark.

>Player determines that there is insufficient room for even an Emergency Disembark.

>The unit may not disembark due to the caveat in the Emergency Disembark rules.

>The entire unit is still embarked and is therefore destroyed by the Wrecked result.

Now the usual procedure for Disembarking is to place the unit's models one by one - but it is not a valid, legal Disembark until all of the models are placed legally as a unit can't be "partial embarked" per the Transport rules on Pg.66 entitled "Transport Capacity". Thus until all models are legally placed no models are legally placed until all models are legally disembark. Further the unit is still embarked until it is fully, completely, and legally disembark. There is no provision for a "model by model" disembarking.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Ahhh, but there's your problem! This is the part I've been trying to get to throughout the debate - the assumptions that everyone is basing their claims of what the rules are. Read the rules for what they say, instead of what we think they should say, and then consider how they might actually work if not for those assumptions.

 

But your reasoning for the mechanics of ED is based on the assumption that you can disregard both the basic movement rules and the disembarking rules with regards to being within 1" of the enemy. Nowhere in the 'emergency disembarkation' section does it say that you can be within 1", therefore preceding rules would still be in effect, meaning you can't.

 

The 1" rule works just fine, especially when you take into account that not every transport is a rhino. Falcon, Wave Serpent, Ghost Ark, Land Raider, Devilfish, etc are all bigger, giving that much more room to bail out. The rhino is designed to protect those within from "small arms fire" not grant them a bubble of invulnerability.