Emergency Disembarkation

[dswanick]

Ahhh, but there's your problem! This is the part I've been trying to get to throughout the debate - the assumptions that everyone is basing their claims of what the rules are. Read the rules for what they say, instead of what we think they should say, and then consider how they might actually work if not for those assumptions.

 

But your reasoning for the mechanics of ED is based on the assumption that you can disregard both the basic movement rules and the disembarking rules with regards to being within 1" of the enemy. Nowhere in the 'emergency disembarkation' section does it say that you can be within 1", therefore preceding rules would still be in effect, meaning you can't.

Not so much. There are several types of Deployment:

1. Pre-game Deployment - makes no mention of not deploying within 1" of enemy models, but does have restrictions on where models may be deployed depending on the mission (within a certain pre-defined section of the table and/or not within 18" of an enemy unit in the case of Dawn of War).

2. Reserve Deployment - specifies that the unit moves on from a table edge. But it specifies that after picking the point on the table edge the models follow the movement rules.

3. Deep Strike Deployment - specifies not within 1" of the enemy and gives specific directions for if any model from the unit ends up there which affect the whole unit.

4. normal Disembark Deployment - specifies not within 1" of the enemy and tells you that the entire unit may not Disembark if this is not possible.

Then we have Emergency Disembark - which may or may not be an expansion of the normal Disembark rules, we aren't told specifically. This rule doesn't specify any limit on Deploying the models within 1" of the enemy like #3 & #4 do, this rule does, however, say you may Deploy "anywhere", again without this specifying that it truly means anywhere within the 2" of the hull or within 2" of the hull but not within 1" of an enemy or anywhere within the confines specified in #4.

 

If ED is a subset of normal Disembarking then does the "anywhere within 2" of the hull" statement implicitly overrule the 1" prohibition? It probably should, but it does not grant a specific permission to do so.

If ED is not a subset of normal Disembark, does it have to include a specific 1" prohibition or is this assumed in the normal Movement rules? Given that all the other common types of Deployment all make specific reference to the 1" rule unless they have some other mechanic in place then I would say what I have said - Deployment isn't Movement and isn't bound by the rules on Movement unless It specifically says it is or has it's own restrictions - which ED does not.

I hold to the assumption that a rule must specifically overrule a more general rule when it applies. ED does not specifically overrule any 1" rules - but Movement rules don't apply to Deployment. So the only possible source of a 1" rule is from normal Disembarking. My reading of the Disembarking rules indicates to me that if you can not Disembark normally you are afforded an alternative "Emerghency Disembark" Deployment. It's not just "normal Disembarking, but go ahead and Disembark from any part of the hull". It says "If any models cannot disembark ... the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation'". By giving it a different name, and then stating "If even this disembarkation is impossible" indiciates to me that it is a seperate type of Disembarkation seperate from normal Disembarkation and thus not bound by the normal restriction splaced on Movement uor normal Disembarkation.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

By giving it a different name, and then stating "If even this disembarkation is impossible" indiciates to me that it is a seperate type of Disembarkation seperate from normal Disembarkation and thus not bound by the normal restriction splaced on Movement uor normal Disembarkation.

 

And yet you just said that it is beholden to the requirement of having to perform a full disembark.

 

So which is it? Are they the same and bound to the same rules with only specific additions granted, or are they different and only bound to their own rules?

[dswanick]

By giving it a different name, and then stating "If even this disembarkation is impossible" indiciates to me that it is a seperate type of Disembarkation seperate from normal Disembarkation and thus not bound by the normal restriction splaced on Movement uor normal Disembarkation.

 

And yet you just said that it is beholden to the requirement of having to perform a full disembark.

 

So which is it? Are they the same and bound to the same rules with only specific additions granted, or are they different and only bound to their own rules?

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble determining if you are being intentionally argumentative or if it's really that unclear to you? I'm going to assume that you just didn't understand my earlier post -

Units are bound by this :

A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry), up to a total of models equal to the vehicle's transport capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on a transport if any part of it is -

a unit may never be partially embarked or spread across multiple transport vehicles.

[maturin]

My reading of the Disembarking rules indicates to me that if you can not Disembark normally you are afforded an alternative "Emerghency Disembark" Deployment. It's not just "normal Disembarking, but go ahead and Disembark from any part of the hull". It says "If any models cannot disembark ... the unit can perform an 'emercency disembarkation'". By giving it a different name, and then stating "If even this disembarkation is impossible" indiciates to me that it is a seperate type of Disembarkation seperate from normal Disembarkation and thus not bound by the normal restriction splaced on Movement uor normal Disembarkation.

 

I think you might be missing the forest for the trees a bit, dswanick. Let's take a step back:

 

1) The rules for ED are in the "disembarkation" section of the rules, not their own section.

2) Nothing in the ED rules directly contradicts the disembarkation rules - it's entirely possible (and to my view, likely) to apply both the "place 2" from hull" rule and the "stay 1" away from enemy models" rule at the same time - there's nothing mutually exclusive about them.

3) After the rulebook spells out the ED rules, it goes back and reiterates that ED is a disembarkation. The "this" you refer to simply notes that it's a subtype, with its own subset of rules. Nothing in the sentence indicates that it's a separate type instead of a subtype - only your [over-]reading of the sentence.

4) ED has the word "disembarkation" in its name. If that doesn't make it a subtype, I'm not sure what would. Not strictly RAW, but just a bit of common sense.

 

I don't know what else you need to indicate that ED is a subset of disembarkation...

[Hiro_Protagonist]

By giving it a different name, and then stating "If even this disembarkation is impossible" indiciates to me that it is a seperate type of Disembarkation seperate from normal Disembarkation and thus not bound by the normal restriction splaced on Movement uor normal Disembarkation.

 

And yet you just said that it is beholden to the requirement of having to perform a full disembark.

 

So which is it? Are they the same and bound to the same rules with only specific additions granted, or are they different and only bound to their own rules?

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble determining if you are being intentionally argumentative or if it's really that unclear to you? I'm going to assume that you just didn't understand my earlier post -

Units are bound by this :

A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry), up to a total of models equal to the vehicle's transport capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on a transport if any part of it is -

a unit may never be partially embarked or spread across multiple transport vehicles.

 

I'm not trying to sound argumentative.

 

What I'm having trouble understanding is along the following points:

 

Movement and the regular disembark state the 1" rule...ED does not... so you say it doesn't apply.

 

Regular disembark states that the entire unit must be able to disembark...ED does not... yet you say that it must apply.

 

The Wrecked result contains a mechanic for "partial" disembark in that all models that don't disembark are destroyed, reducing the unit's number down to those models that have successfully disembarked, hence fully disembarked.

[dswanick]

What I'm having trouble understanding is along the following points:

 

Movement and the regular disembark state the 1" rule...ED does not... so you say it doesn't apply.

Correct

Regular disembark states that the entire unit must be able to disembark...ED does not... yet you say that it must apply.

Actually it's the Transport Capacity rules which say a unit must be either fully embarked or fully disembarked, not the normal Disembarking rules and neither the Disembark nor the Emergency Diembark rules specifically ovrride them.

The Wrecked result contains a mechanic for "partial" disembark in that all models that don't disembark are destroyed, reducing the unit's number down to those models that have successfully disembarked, hence fully disembarked.

Or the Wrecked result destroys the entire unit as it can't be partially disembarked...

But I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread.

Let me ask a related question :

Why do you guys find it so hard to accept that this might be the correct way to play it?

Imagine a squad of ten marines in a Rhino surrounded by a swarm of fill in the blank enemies. The enemies Destroy - Explode the Rhino, the marines inside suffer 10 S4 hits allowing armor saves(taking on average 2 wounds) , the Rhino is removed and the squad is placed in the space left behind even if they are placed such that they are within 1" of the enemy(the rule doesn't stipulate that they have to be placed 1" away and make no provision for auto-destroying the unit), the unit takes a pinning test(which it will likely pass).

Now consider the same scenario except that the swarm rolls a Destroyed - Wrecked result instead. The Marines inside suffer no wounds(well, that's reasonable - Wrecked is a lesser result than Explodes), but now the unit is forced to disembark before the Rhino model is converted to terrain and can do nothing for the rest of the turn (worse than Pinned). Further, you guys argue that this lesser Damage Table result should almost garauntee the destruction of the entire unit instead of just some of the models because of the proximity of enemy models.

My question is this : Does it really make any logical sense to you guys that the intent of the rules would be that a lesser result on the Vehicle Damage table should give a much greater result of carnage?

But as I pointed out here - that makes Wrecked worse than Explodes. Hardly an intuitive or logical outcome. Which is why I think that in an Emergency Disembark the transported models should be afforded the maximum amount of room possible to attempt a Emergency Disembark.

Which brings us to "'emercency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull" and my question about a lesser Damage result of Destroyed being more dangerous to the transported unit than Explodes.

Wrecked:

- Models have less room to attempt a Disembark due to the presence of the Destroyed transport as well as the enemy models.

- The models are using a Disembark Deployment, which takes into consideration the proximity of enemy models.

- The models have a limited area in which to attempt a disembark (access points) and if unable to make use of this limited area are punished by being able to take no other actions for the turn (without even a dice roll)

- And if your claim is correct - the entire unit will be destroyed in most cases while trying to Disembark

Explodes :

- Models are placed in the Difficult Terrain that was once their transport. They are garaunteed to have at least a Rhino-sized empty space where the model used to be to do so.

- The models left after an Explodes are not "deployed" in the RAW sense of the word. Explodes simply tells you to "place the models" where the transport was.

- It is highly unlikely that the erntire unit will thus be destroyed after the vehicle Explodes.

Given all of this - the intent of the rule, to me, is clear. The designers want higher Damage rolls to produce more severe consequences. An Explode result should give a greater consequence to the transported unit. Preventing models from Disembarking anywhere within 2" of the hull and then destroying them since they can't is a more severe result and therefore not the intended result. Therefore your interpretation of the use of the 1" rule is excessive and unintended by the rules designers.

Which is also discussed here:

Explodes

>Unit is fully embarked.

>Models are removed from the unit due to Explodes result.

>Survivers of unit are still fully embarked.

>Transport model is replaced with a piece of difficult terrain, and unit is disembarked by placing all models in the resulting terrain.

Wrecked

>Unit is fully embarked.

>Player is forced to Disembark due to Wrecked result.

>Player determines that there is insufficient room for a normal Disembark.

>Player declares the use of an Emergency Disembark.

>Player determines that there is insufficient room for even an Emergency Disembark.

>The unit may not disembark due to the caveat in the Emergency Disembark rules.

>The entire unit is still embarked and is therefore destroyed by the Wrecked result.

Now the usual procedure for Disembarking is to place the unit's models one by one - but it is not a valid, legal Disembark until all of the models are placed legally as a unit can't be "partial embarked" per the Transport rules on Pg.66 entitled "Transport Capacity". Thus until all models are legally placed no models are legally placed until all models are legally disembark. Further the unit is still embarked until it is fully, completely, and legally disembark. There is no provision for a "model by model" disembarking.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Hardly an intuitive or logical outcome.

 

I agree, when you look at sequential numbers on a table.

 

When you consider what is "actually" happening it does make sense.

 

Wrecked:

10 passengers attempt to evacuate a vehicle (through an improvised exit point) that is about to become difficult/dangerous terrain capable of killing outright 1/6th of the people who travel through it. Meanwhile, 10 combat ready assailants have surrounded the vehicle and await their escape attempt.

 

Explodes:

10 passengers suffer the damages of a spectacular explosion before being dropped into the scattered wreckage or crater (not dangerous and provides cover). Meanwhile, 10 assailants duck for cover as large pieces of hull come flying at them (possibly losing some of their number in the process).

 

The explosion acts as a massive frag grenade giving the passengers the cover that allows some of them to survive.

 

The damage tables weren't entirely intuitive when Weapon Destroyed was worse than Immobilized either, but that was the order they wrote them in.

[SeattleDV8]

Destroyed -wreck (and exploded) both state that the unit must disembark (although the explode result never states that the unit 'disembarks' it is treated somewhat the same).

Once the unit disembarks it must be placed within 2" of the access points, barring that; they use the emergency disembark rules and are placed within 2" of the hull.

 

At this point the unit(all of it ) has disembarked.

Any model that cannot be placed legally at this point is removed.

[dswanick]

Destroyed -wreck (and exploded) both state that the unit must disembark (although the explode result never states that the unit 'disembarks' it is treated somewhat the same).

Once the unit disembarks it must be placed within 2" of the access points, barring that; they use the emergency disembark rules and are placed within 2" of the hull.

 

At this point the unit(all of it ) has disembarked.

Any model that cannot be placed legally at this point is removed.

Except that the Emergency Disembark rules preempt this by saying that if any model can't be Deployed then the unit can't Disembark.

[maturin]

Well, ED rules say "they" can't disembark. Does that mean the unit or individual models? It's not super-clear, could be either, but I think I'm leaning toward dswanick's interpretation on this particular point.

 

What a mish mash.

[Isiah]

Well, ED rules say "they" can't disembark. Does that mean the unit or individual models? It's not super-clear, could be either, but I think I'm leaning toward dswanick's interpretation on this particular point.

 

What a mish mash.

 

In that instance 'they' means the unit as a whole can't disembark because certain individual models aren't able to [emergency disembark].

[SeattleDV8]

Except that the Emergency Disembark rules preempt this by saying that if any model can't be Deployed then the unit can't Disembark.

Hmmmm.

I see your point, I was looking at the Destroyed-Wrecked rules where the unit must disembark and has an exception to the general rule, i.e. Model that can't be placed are destoryed.

You would be correct in a voluntary disembark, the entire unit would have to be able to be placed legally.

[vonny]

for those who argue that emergency disembarkation means you can place the unit anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, with the only restriction that they may not move through/over enemy model's bases, I present the following thought excersize:

What if one of the exits is not blocked off by enemy models, but impassable terrain? I could place my whole unit into the impassable terrain, as they aren't subject to the normal rules of movement, and can be placed anywhere within 2". Of course, in subsequent turns the disembarked unit can no longer move, as it cannot move through impassable terrain - but neither can the enemy. So I'll be happily floating right above a crevasse, shooting away at the unit that just wrecked my transport, while being invulnerable to their counter-attack?

 

I could make this even worse by arguing I can now deploy my unit OFF the table, if the vehicle was placed against the table edge. I can shoot you from the windowsill now!

 

The sheer impossibilities ignoring all the usual movement stuff (other than moving through enemy bases) generate causes me to favor that the rules for emergancy disembarkation really only relate to the fact that you need no longer chose an exit point as normal, but that every part of the hull becomes an exit point, and disembark as usual from there on.

[dswanick]

for those who argue that emergency disembarkation means you can place the unit anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, with the only restriction that they may not move through/over enemy model's bases, I present the following thought excersize:

What if one of the exits is not blocked off by enemy models, but impassable terrain? I could place my whole unit into the impassable terrain, as they aren't subject to the normal rules of movement, and can be placed anywhere within 2". Of course, in subsequent turns the disembarked unit can no longer move, as it cannot move through impassable terrain - but neither can the enemy. So I'll be happily floating right above a crevasse, shooting away at the unit that just wrecked my transport, while being invulnerable to their counter-attack?

 

I could make this even worse by arguing I can now deploy my unit OFF the table, if the vehicle was placed against the table edge. I can shoot you from the windowsill now!

 

The sheer impossibilities ignoring all the usual movement stuff (other than moving through enemy bases) generate causes me to favor that the rules for emergancy disembarkation really only relate to the fact that you need no longer chose an exit point as normal, but that every part of the hull becomes an exit point, and disembark as usual from there on.

While, at first, this seems like a difficult situation to resolve - it really isn't.

IMPASSABLE TERRAIN

Models may not be placed in impassable terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception (like being able to fly above the terrain) or both players agreeto it.

A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases, this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

Disembarking isn't Movement, but Deployment. You aren't "moving" the models, you are "placing" them.

[SeattleDV8]

Generally, disembarkment is movement.

It 'counts as' moving when shooting.

the ED FAQ

Q: If a transport vehicle is completely surrounded can a

unit inside disembark by moving through the enemy

models? (p67)

A: No. Models that disembark are still subject to the

normal movement rules regarding moving through

other models as per page 11.

Points that it uses the some of the movement rules

and also the Scout move FAQ

Q: If a unit with the Scouts special rule is embarked in

a vehicle, also with the Scouts special rule, can they

disembark after the vehicle has moved as part of their

Scouts move? (p76)

A: Yes, as long as disembarking would be allowed

during a normal Movement phase. For example if the

vehicle has moved flat out they would not be allowed

to disembark (unless specifically stated otherwise).

Show that a unit that could not move (without the Scout move) could not disembark.

I still believe we have to treat it as a move.

[dswanick]

Generally, disembarkment is movement.

It 'counts as' moving when shooting.

the ED FAQ

Q: If a transport vehicle is completely surrounded can a

unit inside disembark by moving through the enemy

models? (p67)

A: No. Models that disembark are still subject to the

normal movement rules regarding moving through

other models as per page 11.

Points that it uses the some of the movement rules

and also the Scout move FAQ

Q: If a unit with the Scouts special rule is embarked in

a vehicle, also with the Scouts special rule, can they

disembark after the vehicle has moved as part of their

Scouts move? (p76)

A: Yes, as long as disembarking would be allowed

during a normal Movement phase. For example if the

vehicle has moved flat out they would not be allowed

to disembark (unless specifically stated otherwise).

Show that a unit that could not move (without the Scout move) could not disembark.

I still believe we have to treat it as a move.

Ok, let's ignore all the times Disembarking tells you it is a Deployment and not a Move, let's treat it as a Move in all respects - How is it slowed by Difficult Terrain? Moving through Difficult Terrain entails rolling a d6 and being limited to moving up to a number of inches equal to the dice roll. Do you roll a Difficult Terrain test and move that far, even if the dice roll is greater than 2"? Do you only move the lesser of the dice roll or 2", whichever is less?

[SeattleDV8]

Many 'moves' ignore difficult terrain.

Pile in, consolidation and fall back for example.

Hmm that reminds me BRB FAQ

Q: If models disembark from a transport into

dangerous terrain, do they take a dangerous terrain

test? Unlike Pile-in or Consolidation moves,

disembarking does not specifically states that it doesn't

trigger dangerous terrain tests. (p67)

A: Dangerous terrain says you test for every model that

has 'entered, left or moved through' the terrain. As

there is no exception in the text, disembarking models

do have to test. However, if they disembark at the

beginning of their move and then move after the

disembarkation, only one test is needed, not two.

Another place which states that disembarking is a move.

[maturin]

While, at first, this seems like a difficult situation to resolve - it really isn't.

IMPASSABLE TERRAIN

Models may not be placed in impassable terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception (like being able to fly above the terrain) or both players agreeto it.

A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases, this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

Disembarking isn't Movement, but Deployment. You aren't "moving" the models, you are "placing" them.

 

Wait a second, dswanick. First you were arguing that the ED rules (potentially) allowed you to ignore the previously existing "may not deploy within 1" of enemy models" rule because the ED rule specifically states anywhere within 2" of the hull, which may or may not be an exception to the previously laid out rule.

 

Why would your interpretation ED ignoring previously laid out rules not also apply here? Again, ED simply states anywhere within 2" and by your logic this means you can ignore impassable terrain (just like you're saying you can ignore the 1" restriction).

 

It sounds like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too...

[SeattleDV8]

To be fair, he was trying to point out a weakness in my argument, not something he believed.

[dswanick]

Many 'moves' ignore difficult terrain.

Pile in, consolidation and fall back for example.

Hmm that reminds me BRB FAQ

Q: If models disembark from a transport into

dangerous terrain, do they take a dangerous terrain

test? Unlike Pile-in or Consolidation moves,

disembarking does not specifically states that it doesn't

trigger dangerous terrain tests. (p67)

A: Dangerous terrain says you test for every model that

has 'entered, left or moved through' the terrain. As

there is no exception in the text, disembarking models

do have to test. However, if they disembark at the

beginning of their move and then move after the

disembarkation, only one test is needed, not two.

Another place which states that disembarking is a move.

Difficult terrain is not Dangerous Terrain. Pile in, Consolidation, and Fall Back moves all specifically tell us that they ignore Difficult Terrain. Disembarking does not specifically tell us that it ignores Difficult Terrain - thus by your reasoning it would have to comply. Dangerous Terrain, on the other hand, says "entered, left, or moved through" just as Impassible Terrain says "placed". From this, and the two FAQs you've quoted, we can conclude (and GW clearly has) that there are ways for a model to be in Dangerous or Impassible Terrain that don't include "Movement" as defined by the Rulebook. If I positioned a model in Impassible or Dangerous Terrain - I would say that I "placed" it there, whether I "moved" it there, "deployed" it there, "teleported" it there or used some other mechanic.

 

And actually, this FAQ also makes it clear (again) that Diembarking is Deployment and not Movement. "if they disembark at the beginning of their move and then move after the disembarkation, only one test is needed, not two". Further if, despite RAW, you wanted to argue that Disembark is a Move which then allows you to also make an additional "free" move afterwords - then that last part of the FAQ would still be unnecessary as the BRB already tells us that you only take one Dangerous terrain test per Movement regardless of how many times you "enter, leave, or move through" Dangerous Terrain moved through (BRB, Pg.14).

 

If Disembarking is Movement then you are not allowed to move the model again after Disembarking, and you don't need to be told that it "counts as" movement for the purposes of Shooting. You would be bound by a Difficult Terrain test just as surely as you argue it is bound by the prohibition on moving within 1" of an enemy.

[SeattleDV8]

If Disembarking is Movement then you are not allowed to move the model again after Disembarking, and you don't need to be told that it "counts as" movement for the purposes of Shooting. You would be bound by a Difficult Terrain test just as surely as you argue it is bound by the prohibition on moving within 1" of an enemy.

 

Except that we are told you are allowed to move after disembarking, unless the vehicle had moved.

As such that point is moot as there is an exception built in the rules.

I'm not saying it is 'normal' movement but a type of move, with it's own rules and some from normal movement.

Not all moves are affected by difficult terrain.

Disembarking models are placed within 2" of an access point but use the movement rules to get there.

Are you also claiming that open top vehicles are allowed to disembark within 1" of an enemy?

BRB pg. 70

Models may embark and disembark within 2" of any point of the vehicle

[KnowThyEnemy]

just to chime in again, and to review:

the rules for disembarking states you can't move within 1" of an enemy model.

it then goes on to say if enemies are in the way preventing a disembark move. (note it doesn't mention blocking access points or anything such as that, merely that they are in the way), you may make an emergency disembark move.

emergency disembark says you can place your unit within 2" of the hull, period. end of story. it says anywhere within 2" of the hull, thats as cut and dry as they come. the REASON you are performing this emergency disembark is because you can't perform a normal disembark (i.e. place your unit so that it is 1" away from enemy models and exiting via an access point). therefore, an emergency disembark move overrides these 2 specific movement rules for disembarking, because the ONLY reason you are performing an emergency disembark move is because you can't do those both of those disembark criteria.

Now, there is an faq for disembarking (as an aside, it doesn't say emergency disembark, just disembark) that says you can't disembark through an enemy unit. this faq makes no mention of placing a model within the 1" due to emergency disembarkation. ill admit, i can see someone saying you could (prior to the disembarking faq) emergency disembark through a unit so long as you were within 2" of the hull, which to me was the gray area, not the 1" rule. if there is a space to place the unit so that is within 2" of the hull, doesn't involve moving through another model and your unit is in coherency, im not seeing the issue. you cannot place a model in impassable terrain nor "off the table", those are separate movement rules than the ones emergency disembarking discusses overruling. no mention of it in emergency disemabrking as far as i can see.

[maturin]

@KnowThyEnemy - the point of my earlier post (apologies to dswanick if I misinterpreted the argument going on) was that you can't pick and choose which rules you ignore or don't. Nowhere in the ED rules does it tell you to overrule the "anywhere in 1" rule but not the impassable terrain/off the table rule.

 

Plus, there were arguments earlier that ED is a subtype of disembark; the no 1" of enemy applies, and the ED rules only refer to the hull to eliminate the need for access points. Again, the "anywhere within 2" of hull" rule and "not within 1" of enemy" rules are not mutually exclusive, and there is a perfectly logical reason why they might coexist, and where ED may still save a unit from destruction.

[dswanick]

Except that we are told you are allowed to move after disembarking, unless the vehicle had moved.

But, again, you're not told to ignore Difficult Terrain.

As such that point is moot as there is an exception built in the rules.

I'm not saying it is 'normal' movement but a type of move, with it's own rules and some from normal movement.

Except the rules clearly state that Disembarkation is Deployment. Deployment is not Movement - they each have their own rules.

Not all moves are affected by difficult terrain.

And every one that isn't specifically tells you to ignore the Difficult Terrain rule.

Disembarking models are placed within 2" of an access point but use the movement rules to get there.

Per the FAQ, only as it relates to moving through enemy models which is defined as moving through the area of their base. Which, incidentally is also defined by the rules as being Impassible Terrrain. Thus the FAQ is consistant as to the inability of models to be placed such that it did not enter or move through Impassible Terrain without ever needing to be classed or treated as a Movement type.

Are you also claiming that open top vehicles are allowed to disembark within 1" of an enemy?

BRB pg. 70

Models may embark and disembark within 2" of any point of the vehicle

Yes, "embark or disembark", notice it doen't say "Emergency Disembark". It is giving special instructions on how to (normally) Embark and Disembark to a Transport without Access Points. And while it is worded similarly to the Emergency Disembark it does not make any claim that this is an alternative to the normal Disembark rules. It is, tellingly, lacking an wording indicating this is a non-standard Disembarkation.

 

@KnowThyEnemy - I believe you have summed up my interpretation of the rules pretty well.

Good catch on the FAQ, by the way.

[KnowThyEnemy]

actually it does tell you to ignore it, maturin. thats how the disembark section starts out doesn't it? it says "you cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy model". it then says if enemy models are preventing you from disembarking, you may make an emergency disembark and place your unit anywhere within 2" of the hull....well if what your saying is true it would say "anywhere within 2" of the hull, as long as its not within 1" of the enemy", wouldn't it? i find it kind of odd that it would lead with "you can't disembark within 1" of the enemy" and then continue to say if you can't do this, you can emergency disembark anywhere within 2" of the hull. to me that is cut and dry. the real question to me is the disembarking THROUGH enemy units. the faq says you can't DISEMBARK through them, it makes no mention of emergency disembarking.

 

to me, the faq did this to the BRB:

DISEMBARK:

You cannot disemabrk within 1" of an enemy model or through an enemy unit.

 

the bold part would be what the faq essentially adds to the brb. (i know its an faq not errata, but to all intents and purposes that is what it is doing). now, the addition of this piece of faq information DOES NOT change anything to do with emergency disembarking. it STILL says if you cannot disembark because of enemy models in the way, you may disembark anywhere within 2" of the vehicle hull.

 

The next faq clarifies this a bit, the one concerning the flying base. we all know the base of a flyer is where models embark/disembark from, so it is the access point for the flyer. it states that if the base is completely surrounded, all models embarked are destroyed if they have to disembark. the key word in this statement is COMPLETELY. if there are any gaps at all to physically place models, its not completely surrounded is it? completely surrounding the base/hull of a vehicle is the only way you can destroy the unit inside. COMPLETELY surrounding. otherwise, there are places to emergency disembark models to, namely the spaces NOT being occupied by the surrounding enemy ;).

 

to be fair though, the chances of having an enemy surround a vehicle on all sides yet leave enough space in between the models as to allow the whole unit inside the vehicle to emergency disembark into those spaces would be small. you would either have to have not enough enemy models so they have to spread to the max and you would have to have a small squad inside the vehicle in order to be able to completely disembark. say, a 5 man tac squad disemabrking out of a razorback that was surrounded and assaulted by 5 scarab bases? that seems like there would be enough space inbetween the scarab bases to be able to place the 5 marines.

 

@dswanick: no problem, just figured it was worth a mention since there is a distinction between disembark and emergency disembark. namely the mechanic of how you do them