6 Land Raiders for an 1850 Tournament

[Soups]

On the other hand you can probably steamroll grey knights.

Oh, really? ;)

 

Probably,just how much anti av14 would a normal(ie not tailored)list would have?

Treat a greyknight list like any marines. A powerfist, or in this case, thunder hammer in every squad. Might of titan, along with that other stacking power, and suddenlymyou have strength ten hammers.

 

It wont be melta guns, but not that hard to wreck av14. Throw in a couple of psybolt ammo on the psycannon, and it's not too bad. Just really annoying.

[Something Wycked]

Throw in a couple of psybolt ammo on the psycannon, and it's not too bad.

Psybolt ammo does not increase the strength of Psycannons; their base profile includes the use of Psybolt ammo. ^_^

 

Psycannons are more effective anti-tank than Lascannons due to increased volume of fire and Rending. That said, Psycannons need to Rend to do damage to Land Raiders. 6 Land Raiders might get lucky and the GK might not roll any 6's all game- or the Land Raiders might get unlucky and see nothing but 6's all game.

 

Consider that each GK unit is throwing out between 4 and 16 Psycannon shots every turn, and Land Raiders have every reason to be afraid of GK.

 

Throw S10 Thunder Hammers via Hammerhand into the mix for extra fun. ^_^ For even MORE extra fun, add S10 Thunder Hammers with 2d6 armor penetration via Might of Titan :D

 

For icing on the cake, Dreadknights with Personal Teleporter and Greatsword: its assault range is 18", it is a Monstrous Creature so it rolls 2d6 armor penetration, it is S6 (S7 with Hammerhand) and the sword lets it reroll all to-hits, to-wounds, and armor penetrations (yes, those 2d6 for armor penetration can be rerolled).

 

And this isn't even considering armies that use Stormravens w/Psycannons and/or Melta, Jokaero Lascannon/MultiMelta, Dreadnought MultiMelta, meltagun Warriors, MultiMelta servitors, etc etc etc.

 

Assuming that Grey Knights don't have the tools to defeat armor is an assumption that you're facing an incompetent GK player. :lol:

 

SO! Are 6 Land Raiders going to win you a tourney? Maybe. Worst case scenario, you play some really fun tourney games because of your crazy list surprising people ^_^

[Brother Immolator]

On the other hand you can probably steamroll grey knights.

Oh, really? :)

 

Probably,just how much anti av14 would a normal(ie not tailored)list would have?

Treat a greyknight list like any marines. A powerfist, or in this case, thunder hammer in every squad. Might of titan, along with that other stacking power, and suddenlymyou have strength ten hammers.

 

It wont be melta guns, but not that hard to wreck av14. Throw in a couple of psybolt ammo on the psycannon, and it's not too bad. Just really annoying.

 

I said a not tailored list.Thereby i find difficult every single squad to be equiped with a thunder hammer.It just costs too much for GKs.I have never seen and probably i will never too.

 

Even the libby with migh of titan cant wreck one landraider each turn.He has to reach them and then penetrate them,on max he will be able to deal with 2 of them,which IMHO he wont even manage.

[breng77]

I guess it all comes down to what people see. I see hammers in nearly every GK squad (I know mine all have on except for one squad).

 

Not every GK army will have a libby. Those that do should be expected to kill a land raider for every turn that the libby (and his squad) is in the assault with a land raider. (assuming he is running with the usually suspects of purifiers, paladins, or DCA.) The whole squad gets the +1 S and 2D6 armor pen, so you are looking at possible S7 + 2d6 and 10-30 attacks. NOw it is unlikely that that one squad (barring multi-assaults) will be able to kill 6 Land Raiders.

 

The issue with a 6 Raider list, is that it is very vunerable to hot dice by your opponent. Lots of rending or glancing from GK dreads, can result in an early end to the land raiders, and that is what this list is. A one trick pony, it relies on the durability of the raiders, and if they live you might win. IF they die/get immobilized, it is likely that you will lose.

[Brother Immolator]

I guess it all comes down to what people see. I see hammers in nearly every GK squad (I know mine all have on except for one squad).

 

Not every GK army will have a libby. Those that do should be expected to kill a land raider for every turn that the libby (and his squad) is in the assault with a land raider. (assuming he is running with the usually suspects of purifiers, paladins, or DCA.) The whole squad gets the +1 S and 2D6 armor pen, so you are looking at possible S7 + 2d6 and 10-30 attacks. NOw it is unlikely that that one squad (barring multi-assaults) will be able to kill 6 Land Raiders.

 

The issue with a 6 Raider list, is that it is very vunerable to hot dice by your opponent. Lots of rending or glancing from GK dreads, can result in an early end to the land raiders, and that is what this list is. A one trick pony, it relies on the durability of the raiders, and if they live you might win. IF they die/get immobilized, it is likely that you will lose.

 

Agreed it is indeed one trick pony and far from viable,what i advocate is that a wholly equipped anti tank GK list is impossible,except if you play and you know first hand what the enemy will bring(tailor listing).In a tourney for example you will try to balance out anti tank and anti horde.And thats were i believe Gks will find it a bit tough.Especially if three of those LRs are redeemers.

 

Asside from the hammer how is a squad of paladins and purifiers going to harm the LRs?

[breng77]

Asside from the hammer how is a squad of paladins and purifiers going to harm the LRs?

 

Rending from the 2+ psycannons usually carried in said squad.

 

Possible might of titan if a Libby in included.

 

I actually find most people in tourney lean much more heavily on anti-tank, then anti-horde. Horde armies are fairly rare on the competitive scene. Furthermore they are rare as far as army make-up in general. Orks are really the only army that typically runs a "horde" and most ork builds I see at tourneys are Battlewagon builds (so more anti-tank needed) or Kan-walls (again need for anti-tank) That is why you see far more lists spaming melta than flamers (they kill marines/ tanks/ MC better)

 

GK in particular do not really need to gear up for anti-horde (they come stock with storm bolters, and Cleansing flame is the ultimate anti-horde), so they lean toward taking anti-tank weapons. Just as an example, my 1750 GK list should Through Shooting alone Kill/immobilize 1.37-1.85 land raiders each turn (depending on psycannon movement, also dependent on range). IF you were to add assaults that could be another 1.94 (assuming the raiders moved 6") So it is really not unrealistic to think that GKs could deal with 6 land raiders. THe other issue with land raiders is that they are not all that killy, against MEQ. Godhammers are OK against tanks,, Redeemers can be good against MEQ if the units get too close/fail assaults etc. But not in general.

[Brother Immolator]

Same can be said with a deathwing list then,i simply place an assault cannon and a chainfist in everysquad,i equip the rest with th/ss and then pray for sixes.Not too viable IMHO,Mathhammer is all and good until it gets on the table.If you are so confident that you can imobilise two LR a turn why take hammers anyway?There isnt anything better than a LR...but i aint gonna argue any further.If it works for you fine,IMHO it wont.

 

Also cleansing flame is indeed good,but how many purifiers are you gonna have in a list?two squads three squads?What about the rest of the army and the points costs?Tou have already spend 500-700 pts for them.You seem to sound like believing that an optimal GK list can trash everything thrown at it.All those gismos cost points.You aint gonna have everything,unless you play apoc,thats another story.

 

An aside:If an ork player plays vehicle spam,he has to check out why he started orks in the first place IMHO.

[Mac_Atk]

Necron scarabs make your AV14 to AV9 and move on the the next LR. The ability to alpha strike them on turn one would rip this list apart.

 

In general, I think you're limiting yourself to too few shots and too few target on the field. 6 units on the field is nothing. Looking back at my last tourney list, I put... 9 targets on the table which included 3 full squads, two in rhinos, 1 in LRC. Being able to maneuver a good portion of the list and provide supressive fire with the others keeps your opponent running for cover while you can selectively engage; "deliver payload X at location Y" - wins the game.

[pararanger]

We have an Ork player here that I would LOVE to use this against. He practically wets himself when he sees more the one DC Dread. He's a blatant cheater, blames it on "It's been a long day", "Oh I'm tired, sorry didn't realize.", "Oh I'm used to the older edition." (which is kinda fishy because we're all certain he's never played anything but 5th ed. But yeah, we all have an unspoken agreement to bring our most devastating lists against the guy. He's been tabled in turn 1 twice now. He has openly admitted to being scared when he sees one LR on the table, so I thing seeing 6 would make his neck beard turn grey and fall out.

[breng77]

Same can be said with a deathwing list then,i simply place an assault cannon and a chainfist in everysquad,i equip the rest with th/ss and then pray for sixes.Not too viable IMHO,Mathhammer is all and good until it gets on the table.If you are so confident that you can imobilise two LR a turn why take hammers anyway?There isnt anything better than a LR...but i aint gonna argue any further.If it works for you fine,IMHO it wont.

 

I'm not saying I will defintely immobilize or better 2 Land raiders a turn, but I really only need to do 1 per turn to win the game. Deathwing can take 1 Assault cannon (which is half as good as a psycannon, 1/18 chance of a pen vs 1/9 for the psycannon) for every 240 (250 with your setup) GKs can take 4 psycannons for 280 in purifiers, so they get more shots. SO I get 2-4x as many shots, that penetrate twice as often, not at all the same as deathwing. Chainfist is good (probably better than a S10 hammer). When each GK squad shoots 4-16 times (the list I am quoting has 9 psycannons, so 36 rending shots) so I should mathematically get rends every shooting phase. Does it always happen, no, but sometimes you get 10 rends and eat the land raiders.

 

Also cleansing flame is indeed good,but how many purifiers are you gonna have in a list?two squads three squads?What about the rest of the army and the points costs?Tou have already spend 500-700 pts for them.You seem to sound like believing that an optimal GK list can trash everything thrown at it.All those gismos cost points.You aint gonna have everything,unless you play apoc,thats another story.

 

I quoted numbers from my 1750 list, so not really Apoc at all. I also quoted all GKs having storm bolters (which are "free"). I don't believe they are auto-win against everything, but they do come with tools to have the ability to handle a lot of things. Certainly not auto-win against good lists played by good players, but against 6 Land Raiders with little ability to kill anything I would like my odds for winning the game. As for ork players playing Vehicle spam, that is mostly what I see at GTs 4-5 Battle wagons, with several squads fo 20Boyz, and mega nobz, Ghazzy and a big mech. THe issue with orks in tournament play is that a true horde ork army has trouble finishing a game within the time limit as deploying and moving 180+ orks takes a long time.

[Brother Immolator]

We can argue this to infinity.Lets call it a day or turn it into a pm basis.

[breng77]

meh, I'm not all that into arguing forever, but I tend to want to present the worst case scenario for people when they build lists like this because the assumption that X army will not be able to deal with your list is usually not true even against balanced builds from said army. People really seem to over rate the durability of 6 land raiders. I actually think having nothing but land raiders means you will see more die than you might if you had 2-3 in a list that included other threats. I mean I have seen in this thread alone

 

GK cannot kill LR (false)

Orks will struggle (false, a 4-5 battle wagon list will deffrolla them and have nobs with S9 claws beat on them, a Kan wall will try to beat on them with the kans, is it the easiest match up for the orks no, but unless you are taking a bunch of crusader redeemers you won't kill them either, and if you take a bunch of crusader redeemers, you are not killing things like Razorspam.)

 

I don't think we really disagree with the list being sub-optimal, it is just a degree of how suboptimal we happen to think that it is.

[Brother Immolator]

I don't think we really disagree with the list being sub-optimal, it is just a degree of how suboptimal we happen to think that it is.

 

True on the both accounts,also i dont believe that it will destroy every single GK build.I believe that some lists that aint so focused on dealing with heavy fire will find more difficulty.

[breng77]

Very true it is very much a "rock, paper, scissors" army. If you run into someone who cannot kill a land raider, you auto win (though at that point probably dropping down to say 4-5 raiders and putting something dangerous in them would be better.) I once played a 3 LR deathwing build against an IG army that had nothing stronger than an auto-cannon, and we were playing KPs, so I really had no chance to lose the game. Alternatively if you run into say the IG army with 3 Mantacors, 3 Vendettas, and demo/melta vet spam, you pretty much will auto lose. So your tourney at that point comes down to do you draw lucky match-ups. Dropping down to say 4-5 Raiders and adding termies, or some other big threat would make the army much more of a threat.

[Brother Immolator]

My first statement was actually akin to yours.Only i used dark eldar lances.Definitely not a tourney list.

[VAGABOND]

6 Land Raiders wouldn't work due to the sheer amount of Melta and Las these days. My Sanguinary Guard army would nuke that in 3 turns, 4 at a push

 

Even a Vulkan list would blow this to pieces.

[Sanguinarian]

Six LRs @ 1850 would be FUN to play with and against just to test the dice gods. Especially against a cheating Ork commander. Tis true that DE lances would drop LR AV to 12, but even then it would be a tough jar of cookies to crack. I play 2 LRs and put one on the table to run right into the teeth of the enemy with a TDA Libby and his Assault Terminator posse, while the other LRR (full of DC) deep-strikes in on 1 of 2 locator beacons. ;) THAT is how you make LRs even more scary to the enemy - DEEP STRIKE - on a beacon and deliver hell 100% of the time. They don't have to be fast then and @ 2500pts...OMG!!! :D 6 LRs and 3 Furiosos drop-podded with beacons!!! :eek :nuke :)

[Venerable Jazzman]

4 Land Raiders and 9 Speeders instead??

 

1670 basic points if my maths is right, so 180 left for HQ and upgrades.

[Brother Immolator]

Six LRs @ 1850 would be FUN to play with and against just to test the dice gods. Especially against a cheating Ork commander. Tis true that DE lances would drop LR AV to 12, but even then it would be a tough jar of cookies to crack. I play 2 LRs and put one on the table to run right into the teeth of the enemy with a TDA Libby and his Assault Terminator posse, while the other LRR (full of DC) deep-strikes in on 1 of 2 locator beacons. :eek THAT is how you make LRs even more scary to the enemy - DEEP STRIKE - on a beacon and deliver hell 100% of the time. They don't have to be fast then and @ 2500pts...OMG!!! ;) 6 LRs and 3 Furiosos drop-podded with beacons!!! :eek :nuke :jaw:

 

That sounds like your asking for a ravenwing bottleneck...:P