Heroic Sacrifice

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Hi boys

 

Something that happened over the weekend bothers me a little and I don't current have access to the 40k rulebook. I didn't question it during the game because I always give benefit of the doubt.

 

I know that Heroic Sacrifice can be used when the brotherhood champion is removed as a casualty during either player's assault phase.

 

So imagine a piece of dangerous terrain. The GK brotherhood champion rolls two 6's and is clearly able to assault Ahriman. He moves into base contact and rolls a 1 for dangerous terrain. Dead. So he activates heroic sacrifice and *poof* Ahriman disappears.

 

Can it really be used like that?

[greatcrusade08]

it thought it only worked to kill the model that caused his death.. or am i mistaken?

[Morollan]

The dangerous terrain test occurs before assault moves so he wouldn't have reached Ahriman before dying.

[Seahawk]

Yes it can, and here's why:

 

1. You suffer the effects of terrain during an assault, AFTER moving into base contact with the target (p.34, "Moving Assaulting Models").

2. The power says "can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either player's Assault Phase." This is during the phase, so good to go on that.

3. "...against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died." As noted above, the BC does get into BTB contact before he dies, so still good.

 

 

 

Thus, a dead Ahriman. Sorry!

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Fair enough. I'm still a sad girl

 

edit: Thanks!

[Morollan]

Yes it can, and here's why:

 

1. You suffer the effects of terrain during an assault, AFTER moving into base contact with the target (p.34, "Moving Assaulting Models").

2. The power says "can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either player's Assault Phase." This is during the phase, so good to go on that.

3. "...against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died." As noted above, the BC does get into BTB contact before he dies, so still good.

 

 

 

Thus, a dead Ahriman. Sorry!

 

Assaulting through cover (pg36) says that terrain tests occur before moving.

[Seahawk]

No it doesn't, it just says if the test fails the assault fails. On page 34, the moves go before the Difficult/Dangerous Terrain tests:

 

"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy. Move the model in contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assault, using the shortest possible route. Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model."

[Morollan]

No it doesn't, it just says if the test fails the assault fails. On page 34, the moves go before the Difficult/Dangerous Terrain tests:

 

"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy. Move the model in contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assault, using the shortest possible route. Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model."

 

BRB, Pg 36

ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER

If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34) any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving

[Seahawk]

Oops, missed that. Still, it's in direct contradiction to page 34:

 

"Move the model in contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assault...Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model."

 

Move then roll, or roll then move. Pick your poison I guess :lol:

[Leonaides]

Surely you have to roll first - if your roll fails then you wouldnt even move the first model if the measurement is insufficient to reach the unit you are charging...

[Morollan]

Surely you have to roll first - if your roll fails then you wouldnt even move the first model if the measurement is insufficient to reach the unit you are charging...

That seems to be the gist of pretty much everything in the relevant sections of the rules other than the specific line that Seahawk mentioned, which inclines me towards pg36 being the correct version. Typical GW though. Reckon we could club together and hire them an editor?

[Jacinda]

Surely you have to roll first - if your roll fails then you wouldnt even move the first model if the measurement is insufficient to reach the unit you are charging...

That seems to be the gist of pretty much everything in the relevant sections of the rules other than the specific line that Seahawk mentioned, which inclines me towards pg36 being the correct version. Typical GW though. Reckon we could club together and hire them an editor?

But it does say to "Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary" and the difficult terrain test says to do this before making the physical move. In practice we do it like this all the time to be sure we can actually make it into combat. If you are 5" away and only get to move 4", the assualt fails because you do nopt make it into base to base combat. The same would go for dangerous terrain. If the model died because it failed the rolls, it never actually made it into base contact. It died as soon as it touched dangerous terrain.

 

Where is Frosty's step-by-step guide for assaulting anyway ....

[Seahawk]

We definitely need one.

 

If it ends up being that page 36 overrides page 34, then I heartily change my answer to "No, he couldn't do that."

[dswanick]

Here's my read on this.

MOVING THROUGH DIFFICULT TERRAIN

...

If any of the models in a unit start their move inside difficult terrain, the unit is affected by the terrain and must take a difficult terrain test. Roll two d6 and select the highest...

...

If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move.

...

If he chooses that they will do so, the unit must take a difficult terrain test as described above.

...

DANGEROUS TERRAIN

As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be dangerous to move through. This is represented by the dangerous terrain test. Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or morea reas of dangerous terrain during its move.

This section makes it clear that Difficult Terrain tests normally happen before a Move is initiated, so as to determine the distance the unit is allowed to move. Dangerous Terrain tests, however, normally happen after the unit's Move.

MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS

...

Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route. Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model. If the closest model is found not to be within move distance to the enemy, that assault does not happen and no model is moved.

This part of the rules deals specifically with the first model moved. It tells you to roll for a Difficult or Dangerous Terrain Test, if needed, and if the model is killed then the next closest model is sent in. It does not make any specific changes to normal methods of rolling Difficult or Dangerous Terrain tests so there is no reason to conclude that they are not rolled for as normal (before the move for Difficult/after the move for Dangerous).

ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER

If, followinq the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving.

This section of the rules, on the other hand, makes a specific change to the usual order of rolling for Difficult/Dangerous Terrain for all models in the unit. It states that in the circumstance of an Assault Move both Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests must be made before moving.

 

In my opinion - specific overrides general and assumptions, thus the specific command to roll before moving any models overrides the general procedure of rolling after a model has moved through Dangerous Terrain as well as the section on Pg.34 which makes no mention either of the roll being before or after and requires an assumption(either of change or no change). The Champion must make his Dangerous Terrain roll before Moving, so will not be in base contact with the target of his charge if killed by the DT, thus Heroic Sacrifice will not allow him to trip and impale both himself and the enemy on his clumsy swordtip.

[Something Wycked]

dswanick saves the day again!

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

:) Thanks guys, I haven't retained much of what I read as far as the dangerous terrain rules go.

[Seahawk]

That's okay. When you skim the rules it's easy to figure out...it's when you actually strap down and read it that it gets all confusing :confused:

[PyronusSouria]

I figure what happened to remove Ahriman in that game was simple. The Champion lunged forward through the terrain, tripped and killed himself, flinging his weapon through the air and skewering a distracted sorcerer. :lol:

[Grimtooth]

I figure what happened to remove Ahriman in that game was simple. The Champion lunged forward through the terrain, tripped and killed himself, flinging his weapon through the air and skewering a laughing sorcerer. ;)

 

/fixed

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Thanks, wolf.

 

:P